UKLondonSikh

UK = Paji, all those that bow down in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are Sikh and we need to keep that deliberately wide-open (original) definition of who is Sikh if we are serious about making Sikhi a positive force for global good. Our RSS enemies are only too happy to define non-Amritdhari's as being Hindu's to increase their (fake) demographic majority and turn us into an even smaller population minority and small minorities don't often tend to control their own destiny and are often the subject of discrimination, human rights abuses and the innocent victims of GhalluGharay.

Shaheed Beant Singh and Shaheed Satwant Singh one day need to be accepted by ALL Indians as greater patriots than Shaheed Bhagat Singh. For the sake of communal harmony and not to target innocent Hindu's Shaheed Beant Singh and Shaheed Satwant Singh took the evil out at it's roots. India as a whole should respect the Shaheeds from the Sikh Panth - alas the international airport at Delhi is named after an evil politician responsible for Genocide (purely so that she could win re-election on the bandwagon of Hindutva).

Geographically Khalsa Raj cannot be restricted to Majha and Malwa (where we are currently in a majority). If we cannot eradicate Gurdwaray split along jaath-paath divisions in THIS decade then we can be a minority in Punjab (and not just Doaba at present) by as early as 2021. We need to target Khalsa Raj being across the whole of present day India bearing in mind where our Panj Pyaaray came from. Concentrating on naaray for Khalistan before we have eradicated the drugs menace in Punjab, female infanticide, jaath-paath divisions and illiteracy/poverty is a strategy that did not work in the years between 1984 and the death of Beanta when even I desperately hoped for freedom the terrorist central GOI. Times have changed. With a Sikh Prime Minister, a Sikh leader of the Indian Army, Sikh chief representative at the UN, Cameron's friend Badal CM of Punjab ... we cannot expect any help for establishing a sovereign state from USA, UK, France, Russia etc who are more interested in trade with India, so we have to lay the foundations for Khalsa Raj via internal strengthening of the Panth from within. The day we have saanjhay Gurdwaray, an equal male/female ratio, 99% of Sikhs avoiding drugs+alcohol and 99% literacy ... it will only be a matter before the whole of present day India can be transformed into a Khalsa Desh of Begumpura's instead of poverty-stricken slums of injustice.

Sikhs have no problem with any religious community. The GOI that rules the country via corruption, discrimination, and human rights abuses is what is squarely our enemy. 1 billion do not hate Sikhs - the majority of them respect us ... and a majority can come to Sikhi ... if we encourage them with pyaar and parchaar (as opposed to seeing "them" as our enemies). UK = Bro I think it's important to clarify your statement that it's a minority of Hindu's amongst the 1 billion or so that hate and despise us. If we work on enlightening more so-called Hindu's on what Sikhi is all about then the minority that are our open enemies will be effectively finished. True that the Hindu Jatts of Haryana (just like the Muslim Jatts that killed 300,000 plus Sikhs in Pakistan 1947) and in control of Delhi Police were very much in support of Hindu Jatt leaders like Sajjan Kumar that touched Indira's feet ... as were a majority of the rich Congress-supporting members of Punjab, Haryana, Delhi and UP's Hindu community. However, we have to keep in mind that these folks who were our open enemies never comprised more than 1% of the overall so-called Hindu population in the country at the time. Sadly, with the media being controlled by the Gandhi's many innocent Hindu's were duped by propaganda and, for example, did not realise that it was Indira's Black Cats led by Muhammad Azhar Alam that were busy shooting dead innocent Hindu bus passengers (not Sikhs as the Khalsa Panth never targets innocent human beings). How convenient that Saada Haq film was banned because it exposed this very truth.

UK = The vast majority of the people that mainstream society in India terms as so-called "Hindu" are actually good people (as you well know). 99% of the gareeb so-called society-labelled Hindu's are in fact natural Sikhs if we as a Panth could do more to reach out to them. I'm even convinced that if more Punjabi Brahmins knew the inspirational bravery of Bhai Mati Das Ji and Bhai Sati Das Ji and furthermore that we accept more of our Punjabi Brahmin brothers and sisters as sehajdhari Sikhs initially ... i think within a generation most Punjabi Brahmins would come to the Sikh Panth as their natural spirtual home. The vast majority of Punjabi Brahmins did attend Gurdwaray until the 1980's and hence were in fact Sikhs by virtue of the fact that they bowed down to Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We don't help encourage more good people like yourself to join the Panth by constantly referencing the term "Bahman" or Mahatma Budh's "Brahminwaad" term. I'm digressing but coming back to the word Hindu - it as the Arabic word itself does denote an insult and refers to "black-skinned polytheistic kaffirs" as used by Muhammad bin Qasim when he crossed the Sindh darya ... even though the later Indus river definition is more politically correct nowadays.

All the time - but especially so at Vasakhi - we as a Panth need to communicate facts like the geographic origin of our Panj Pyaaray as widely as possible. Too many of our own community don't realise these and allow themselves to pigeon-hole Sikhi to Majha and Malwa only (since Doaba is a Hindu majority region since Indira + her casteist Jatt Congress became aggressive in funding the growth of Dera Ballan and the Balmiki Sabha's there in order to destroy the ethos of saanjhay Gurdwaray). I'm not from the AKJ and nor do I always agree with them but we should commend them for looking to help the poor outside of Punjab as they notably did in Madhya Pradesh recently.

UK = Paji sorry for the delayed reply. Not on here too often I'm afraid. Mata Gujri Ji's proper name was Mata Gujjar Kaur and yes it was a reference to her ancestry as Mata Ji ancestors were one of the brave members of that community that did not convert to Islam as the Mughals were very effective at brutalising the Gujjars hard enough to convert the vast majority of that community in Punjab and Kashmir into Muslims. Gujjar does not actually mean shepherd though many Muslim Gujjars in East Punjab are indeed goat herders. Gujjar is actually a (tribal) Qaum. Kind of like the word Jatt does not mean farmer but is actually the name of a tribal ancestry. It very much hurts our Gujjar enemies from Pakistan and Dehli (who were very much involved with their Muslim Jatt and Hindu Jatt brothers in butchering innocent Sikhs 1947+1984) as to how Mata Gujri Ji's ancestry destroys the lies of our enemies about who our Guru's married and were descended from. UK = I think if Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj accepted Mata Gujri Ji's name as Mata Gujjar Kaur and obviously so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj then I don't think we should object as by marrying across so-called Hindu+Muslim caste boundaries Mata Gujri Ji proved she was not loyal to her Gujjar lineage but to the Sikh Panth in its fight to ensure Justice and Sarbat dha Bhall for all. UK = Tarkhan refers to an occupation (as opposed to a tribe) so it might be a stretch to name a child on the basis of an occupation they have yet to follow. We should recall that 90% of the Ramgarhia Misl's Khalsa warriors did not follow the same noble profession as Bhai Lalo Ji. However, the descendents of carpenters commanding an army of erstwhile Jatts, Brahmins, Rajputs, Khatri's etc, etc was laughed upon by our Muslim+Hindu enemies who despised Bhai Lalo Ji on the basis of his occupation alone. UK = Similarly, "chura" does not refer to a tribe. It merely refers to those great tribes who joined mainstream Indian society last and were thus forced by the racist Muslim+Hindu casteists into the most degrading of work as a result. We all know that the bravest of the brave included Bhai Jaita Ji and Guru Sahib stated that "Ranghreta Guru Ke Beta". It's a real shame that Indira and her casteist Jatt friends succeeded in creating a Balmiki identity in the last 30 years in order to weaken the demographics of the Panth and play divide and rule because of how they fear the revolutionary capability of the Sikh Panth. We can only combat the effect through parchaar and pyaar.

UK = Paji, like it or not, there is caste discrimination still going on in the UK. As Sikhi is the ultimate destroyer of the wretched caste system as proved on Vasakhi 1699 our Qaum in the UK should be at the forefront of stamping out this cancer and the vestiges of it that still remain in the UK despite it being 2013. The proposed legislation does not impact those who are not victims of discrimination. UK = Jandialvi Paji where discrimination occurs Sikhi teaches us to eradicate it (rather than pretend that it doesn't exist) UK = PSN Paji agreed that the supporters of jaath-paath ought to go back to India so they can practise their stupid beliefs freely ... but protesting and fighting against discrimination is what Sikhi is all about! UK = Paji this proposed legislation ought to be the final nail in the coffin of caste discrimination in the UK. Don't forget that this legislation would render Balmiki, Ravidassia, Bhatra and Ramgarhia Gurdwara's with their exclusionary committees redundant so that we can get back to the saanjhay Gurdwaray we had prior to 1984. That being said, respect for your part in the Telford Nagar Kirtan ... but please try to build bridges so that our brothers and sisters from your local Bhawan participate in your town's Nagar Kirtan ... as the innocent Sangat are natural Sikhs (but committee walay under the influence of Dera Ballan wish to separate the Sangat so they have a monopoly over the innocent Bhawan Sangat's offerings). We can only counteract that by pyaar, building bridges, attacking discrimination wherever it occurs and reminding people of Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh Ji, Bhai Jaita Ji, Giani Ditt Singh Ji and others who have played such a prominent role in ensuring our Panth's survival against overwhelming odds. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/ UK = Khalsa Ji it the proposed legislation has no negative impact on Sikhs. In fact it is positive legislation and we should be seen at the forefront of it if we are serious about wanting more of the oppressed in India to join the Sikh Panth. British legislation is applicable to everyone and cannot make specific mention of Sikhs - as we bitterly oppose the wretched Caste System as evidenced most clearly by Vasakhi 1699. UK = Anyone not working today should definitely make time to support this demonstration as not least the fact is Sikhi is all about Sarbat da Bhalla

Jagtar Singh Khalsa Ji I just wanted to say respect to you for the part you are playing for the Panth in the UK. Some people are too cynical ... even though yeah I accept what realistic umeedh can we have from protests at India House (unless accompanied by substantive media coverage or associated with Indian events such as the Commonwealth Games). I personally feel that naaray for Khalistan serve to dilute our Panth's true aims as they are often used as a stick to belittle our valid points regarding the evil human rights abuses and Genocide that occurred against us at the hands of GOI. Ekta is the the key but no one should be knocking you for making a sincere effort (given participation at the protests immediately after the SC rejection of Professor Sahib's appeal). VJKK VJFK

Sikhi can never be stopped Paji. Where problems begin for others, that's where Sikhi comes in with the solution. Certain crooked individuals you refer to are not Amritdhari but are patit. Sehajdhari are slow adopters and distinct from patits ... but patits who have previously pataken of Amrit should not be allowed to discolour your view of the Khalsa Panth. Do your best in whatever capacity you can. Challenge callous behaviour by others. Speak to Sangat who are like minded with you. Look at this forum - we all have different viewpoints - but deep down we know the majority want Sarbat dha Bhalla and Chardi Kallah for Sikhi. Similarly, those GurSikhs who encouraged your Sikhi will support your efforts to support this family. If you can come up with a genuine charitable organisation that is open to probity and well known for assisting Sikhs and others in need, then I am sure your plea can raise additional funds to assist this family and others (who need not necassarily be Sikh). That's the power of Sikhi - we have the power and ability within ourselves to assist others, if we are so minded to follow Gurbani. Your post will achieve a positive end result brother so don't give up hope and know that you as a GurSikh have the ability to be part of the solution.

Benti to Admin+Mods ... can this discussion be re-positioned on the What's Happening forum as the majority of forum viewers are guests and are therefore likely to miss this crucial issue which is central to Sikhi moving forward in Chardi Kallah. If we don't address the Dera Ballan threat and wipe out all vestiges of jaath-paath remaining within certain minds before 2021 then Sikhs will be a minority in Punjab at the time of the next census in 8years as the aim of Dera Ballan is take 3 million current Sikhs out of Sikhi by 2021. In terms of the GhalluGhara's the Sikh Panth has faced and is facing from female infanticide and the drugs epidemic, these statistics bear thinking about and collective Sangat action upon. Thank you

UK = The thing to remember bro is making a martyr out of someone such as SurajMani or this fake Ramnand only strengthens the convictions of their adherents. But granted, the murderers in Vienna were all previously Ballan adherents who conveniently grew kes at the time of the murder in order to denigrate the Khalsa Panth. How convenient that at Dera Ballan they state Amritdhari Sikh terrorists on their placard tomb when such a term is a misnomer. No Sikh can be Amritdhari and a terrorist. 598 = The next sant at Balla dera he is doing the same, hence annomisity and quarrel has arose amongts chamars and all Sikhs particularly jatts because they beleive most Sikhs in the punjab as jatts. UK = We as GurSikhs need to continually stress that 80% of Jatts are proud Muslims and Hindu's as these lies that the enemies of the Panth propagate about us being "Jatt" needed to be combatted head on. Dera Ballan want to appropriate the term Ravidassia for their own political use. The response is for all of us Sikhs to declare ourselves as the only true Ravidassia's out there as we oppose the caste system whereas Dera Ballan propogate as can be seen from their Hindu Chamar (aka Ad-dharmi) only matrimonials and leadership. 598 = When the Ramananda Saint used to sit equal to Guru Granth Sahib he is infact sitting equal to Bhagat Ravidass Ji Maharaj. UK = Well stated bro. I totally agree. 598 = In my opionion the chamaar community have taken a step backwards and done more damage to further alienate the communities. UK = Remember it is not the leatherworking ancestry community as a whole - it is the Dera Ballan political machine that is working in tandem with Congress and the RSS on this. In Malwa, saanjhay Gurdwaray are still surviving and you will actually find far more young Amritdhari's whose ancestors were once in occupations related to leather that regard themselves as casteless and GurSikh (just like Giani Ditt Singh who led the Singh Sabha and Shaheed Baba Sangat Singh who led the Sikh Fauj as ordained by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) in comparison to other communities. We need to unite the Panth completely with full Unity and full equality under the Nishaan Sahib. 598 = Now Chamaars always look at Sikhs/jatts with particular hatred UK = With respect bro, your sentence can give the wrong impression. The term Sikh is not freely interchangeable with Jatt. As 80% of Jatts are proud Muslims and Hindu's. Within East Punjab itself no more than 50% of Sikhs are of the Jatt tribal ancestry. However, all enemies of the Sikh Panth and Dera Ballan deliberately try to paint the Qaum as being Jatt which is quite simply an absurd falsehood.

Like i said brother, don't believe the hype. Don't believe what others want you to believe without analysing if it is in tandem with Gurmat first. Ask yourself why did Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj vehemently oppose such idolatory and iconography? As Guru Sahib has extolled in authentic Dasam Bani. I repeat Guru Sahib were the paragon of humility and dedicated their whole life for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

The fact is this Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was scared to debate with Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha fame. It is said that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed realised how badly his reputation would suffer given that he considered himself a high caste Qureshi (the same Arab Brahmin caste that Prophet Muhammad belonged to that had control of the sacred black stone at Mecca) whilst he had commented to his British allies that Sikhs like Giani Ditt Singh were mainly descended from untouchables and thus should not be treated with the same respect accorded to supposed "royalty" like him from Fatimid ancestry. Perhaps he also realised that whereas Sikhi teaches us to eradicate slavery and punish slaveowners, the holy Prophet Muhammad owned and traded in black African and child slaves extensively - which doesn't exactly compare favourably to the founding of the Khalsa Panth in 1699 and its eternal mission towards global justice for the weak and oppressed. Having said all that, Ahmadiyya's are lesser opponents of Sikhs than the mainstream Muslims of Punjab who number 100 million and rejoice at their victories from 1947 whereby they killed off and ethnically cleansed at least 10% of the Sikh population at the time - the equivalent to 3million Sikhs being killed off today.

Brother, I was referring to the Gurdwaray at Hastings and Bombay Hills near Auckland :-(

UK = Well spotted sweetshera that the Congress hierarchy despise Dalits but conveniently utilise the Dalit vote bank to economically exploit and ride into power off their blood, sweat and tears. And obviously the majority of Congress MLA's and MP's in Punjab are Jatts. However, I think it is very naive (in the way Ad-dharmi Dera Ballan polemicists would like you to think) if you believe that Dera Ballan and the concept of splitting the Qaum along caste and spiritual lines is anything other than a Congress tactic. Have you ever asked yourself why since Garib Dass took over Dera Ballan in 1982 the Dera became ever increasingly vocal in favour of advising Dera Ballan adherents to vote Congress en bloc just like his Jatt counterparts over at Dera Sirsa and the Radha Swami business empire? At a time when innocent Sikhs were being eliminated in hundreds of thousands and Punjab's economy was in ruins, Garib Dass lived a life of luxury just like his Jatt counterparts at the other Dera's whilst Congress funded certain overt charitable gestures in order to give a veneer of respectability to a Congress pawn in the game against Sikhs. Thereafter, six ex-Ballan adherents who are supposed to have grown their Kes are thereafter alleged to have done the Vienna murder (which I condemn). Who benefitted from the murder? Answer = Congress and their trusted lapdogs who could not wait to have monopoly control over the innocent Sangat's offerings. How convenient that the murder was used as a pretext to remove Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj from multiple Gurdwaray and set up a new sect/religion which will benefit the casteist Hindu shopkeepers of Benares near the supposed Janam Asthan Mandir. Please see the truth bro and don't continue to repeat what the Dera Ballan polemicists want you to say for their own political ends. That's the thing sweetshera as someone who is not from the community in question yourself who are you to say that our brothers and sisters from the same background outside of Punjab are not Sikh? I consider them Sikh and I hope that you would also see the virtue in a 100 million people being united to fight for justice and end to discimination on all levels. If Giani Ditt Singh was capable enough to lead the Singh Sabha and Shaheed Baba Sangat was capable enough to lead the Sikh Fauj ... who is to say what could be achieved if Sikhs can eradicate the caste system in Punjab first as per the founding of the Khalsa Panth in 1699, then unity with our oppressed sisters and brothers outside Punjab can begin to eradicate the caste system in the rest of India (where obviously it was practised on a far worse scale than Punjab - which begins to seem like an oasis of peace in relative terms). The key thing to remember is that the 80% of Jatts who are Muslim and Hindu and who rejoiced at how the Jatts were so prominent in killing off innocent Sikhs in 1947 and 1984 despise Chamars openly and would never bow down to the words of Dhan Dhan (Guru) Ravidas Ji Maharaj. This is something that needs to be explained to fools from all castes who think that the whole world revolves around the Doaba region.

I'm down with that Bhai Sahib :-) If we have simple industrial warehouse type Gurdwaray that can accommodate more capacity of those with faith in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj at the same location - our Qaum will be stronger, as Gurmat teaches. Our Dharam is within not without and is not showcased externally with fancy buildings adorned with Gold "dakhaavay vasthay". Wherever Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is present, that place becomes a "pavithar asthaan" based on the sharda and ekta of the Sangat. In the UK, Paji, we wasted approximately £30million (C$ 50million) on three relatively recently constructed Gurdwaray. Most GurSikhs opposed such flagrant expenditure when others within the Panth and globally are in greater need. Gurmat teaches us that we can achieve more spending the majority of the funds mentioned on the downtrodden and gareeb and suffering ... whilst simultaneously gaining greater inner peace by praying to God in not so fancy surroundings. Sikhi is a totally different marg from Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Let them waste their millions on their fancy Churches, Mandirs and Masjids. Let us concentrate on Sarbat dha Bhalla http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/

100% agreed brother that what you said is what Gurmat teaches us Exactly Paji you're 100% right with your pro-Gurmat stance Exactly Paji, gold on Harmandar Sahib is totally against Gurmat, given that world hunger has not yet been defeated as Sikhi wishes to achieve. Don't believe all the recent portraits you see to be accurate reflections of reality bro. Dasme PaathShah were the paragon of humility. The Kalgi - which did not cost anything - was symbolic to send the message the Mughals that the Sikh Panth which has unbreakable faith in one God and believes in justice and equality for the downtrodden cannot be constrained or banned from carrying weapons as the Islamic Empire wanted our Sikh Panth to stop doing. As for any of our Guru Sahibs wearing gold rings and diamond necklaces like some rappers - "don't believe the hype" (if you are old enough to understand the musical reference bro :-)

UK = Not my philosophy Paji - according to Gurmat, Naam Simran is not restricted to simple repetition of Vaheguru (no matter how blessed that is in of itself) GPS = Per you there is no reincarnation and there is no karma effect. UK = No Paji i didn't say that. I said reincarnation in the form dictated by Manu Smriti and Hinduism is rejected by Gurmat. UK = Indeed, karma in its original Sanskrit refers to this life - as opposed to what Manu would have us believe. 12 = this is boring UK = Agreed Paji, we are going round in circles ... better for all of us to agree to disagree politely ... and continue the conversation on PM if need be ... whilst not losing sights of bigger issues facing the Panth

Jonny = Hindus can slaughter anyone in the name of religion and no one will be punished, yet if a person from the minority group asks for justice he is labelled as a separatist or terrorist. UK = Paji i think we need to avoid the Hindutva philosophy that regards 1 billion people in India (of 1.25 billion population) as being "Hindu". Hindu's didn't attack us en bloc in 1984. Specific Hindutva goons such as Jatts like Sajjan Kumar did so on the orders of the Congress hierarchy that was loyal to Indira - their mother. Jonny = The issue Sikhs have with Rajoana is not that he is on death row. Problem is, if he is on death row why are the likes of Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar still free? why aren't the killers of the Sikhs on death row as well? Is the death penalty only for the minorities in India while the majority is allowed to kill anyone without the least bit of regret? UK = Exactly Paji. Shaheed Bhai Beant Singh and Shaheed Bhai Satwant Singh and Bhai Rajoana and others who punished evil politicians instead of innocent civilians should be acclaimed as Desh Bhagats just like Shaheed Bhagat Singh and Shaheed Udham Singh. Jatts and Khatri's like Sajjan Kumar and Tytler roam free whilst Sikh political prisoners are still not released. Jonny = I have yet to meet a Hindu who says operation blue star should not have happened. UK = Paji you must only encounter the Hindutva minority - which is most active in Haryana, Delhi and UP. Jonny = Every Hindu you encounter says it was a good act, of course they will never say this to a Sikh to his face, but they are very bold about their views on operation blue star when you chat with them online. UK = I myself have encountered a minority of such degenerate individuals that support Bluestar but i'm convinced they are a misguided minority amongst what we term Hindu nowadays. As far as Hindu Punjabi's go prior to Hindutva Arya Samaj type radicalisation prior to 1966 most of these Hindu Punjabi's were regular attendees at Gurdwaray and thus Sikh in the wider sense. I believe Mehtab Singh Paji can bear me out on this. Jonny = Something is seriously wrong with a society which condones slaughter of innocents in the name of fighting terror. UK = Agreed Mirch = Blast me for being an extremists but Khalsa is a niara panth and should have it's own raaj. Where we rule. UK = Agreed Paji on the need for a rule which is for Sarbat dha Bhalla (instead of a corrupt controlling elite minority in Delhi). However, let's be real where will Khalsa Raj be? Will Sikhi be confined to Majha and Malwa - the two areas of Punjab in which Sikhs are a majority? Remember, that with the Dera Ballan looking to take the historically second biggest population demographic out of the Sikh Panth we are likely heading for a Sikh minority by 2021 if we do not eradicate all vestiges of jaath-paath from the Panth. Until we conquer internal divisions like that, achieve 99% literacy within the Panth and 99% of the Panth never touch alcohol or drugs ... naaray for Khalistan are a futile exercise given that Cameron and all the global businesses are courting India (to the detriment of ignoring Sikh and other minority human rights). In the new globalised arena, it is a safer bet for us to concentrate on our Panth's internal improvement first and thereafter look at gaining population in the rest of India to become the most numerous and powerful demographic within India long term. Of course, Khalsa Raj should be over the whole planet - as it is the only true Raj i have faith in to work for Sarbat dha Bhalla. UK = Ridiculous comment Gurpreet to blanketly label 99.99% of 1 billion Hindu's as cowards. Have you ever met any Sri Lanka Tamils? I assure they are not cowards. People are not cowards on the basis of their ancestry - let us take the example of our Punj Pyaaray who were from as diverse afield as Gujarat, Orissa and South India. But a pure and truthful ideology such as Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth can obviously inculcate bravery within the previously meek. GSJohal = Many hindus were lined and killed by terrorist(so called khalistani terrorist). UK = Innocent Hindu's were indeed killed by Punjab Police SSP Muhammad Azhar Alam's Black Cats and criminals unleashed by Indira to denigrate the Khalsa Panth. Tellingly, for every innocent Hindu that was killed ... four innocent Sikhs were killed by so-called Khalistani terrorists - when associating any member of the Khalsa Panth with terrorism is a misnomer in of itself. GSJohal = Many people(hindus and sikhs) were killed for personal revenge. Punjab police killed so many thousands innocent sikh youth. In general sense nobody gained but punjab lost its sons/daughters. UK = Agreed - the killing of innocents was done by the Punjab Police and criminals who worked at their behest to create mayhem. VanHS = But is a Sikh ever allowed to "send a message" to his enemies (i.e. through force) in order to dissuade them from a certain of course of action in the future? Is collateral damage (not of innocents but of those likely to attack but haven't actually done so) acceptable? What exactly are the parameters of conduct when it comes to these issues? UK = Absolutely Paji. The parameters can only be weighed by an individual conscience according to what we interpret as Gurmat. My opinion is whichever option causes the least suffering (numerically) to innocents (regardless of which Qaum the innocents are from). Mehtab = No its not. They say the same for us and that is equally wrong. UK = Paji - Hinduism's Manu Smriti and Islam's Quran/Hadith do in fact justify the murder of innocent Dalits and Kaffirs.

I'm glad you agree brother. I was disappointed and sad to note that sadly the phenomenon of separate Gurdwaray has reached New Zealand as well. With the smaller Sangat you guys have other there compared to the UK or Canada one would have assumed that at least NZ would be spared from this madness - but it's up to folks like yourself to tackle this in the best ways you can.

That's the thing brother - all Sikhs are Ravidassia by virtue of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj being what we bow down to daily. Similarly, anyone whose ancestors followed the same or similar occupations as Dhan Dhan (Guru) Ravidas Ji Maharaj that were utterly despised by the Hindu's and Muslims was inseparable from the Sikh Panth until Indira and the RSS thought up this clever method to exploit the discriminatory thinking of some who claim to be Sikh - yet obviously understand nothing of Sikhi's central message of equality. UK = I think you are wrong my friend. There is no hierarchy within Sikhi. Study the life and shaheedi of Bhai Sangat Singh - who was despised and abused by his village Qazi and Pandit alike as being "a mere Chamar" according to the Muslims and Hindu's yet Guru Gobind Singh Ji appointed to lead our Sikh Panth's forces at Chamkaur Sahib. So what has happened is a combination of factors with Indira benefitting from certain casteists Jatts and corrupt Mahants like Garib Dass of Dera Ballan who worked for Indira. UK = It's important to realise that Sikhi is not to blame. Titles such as Ravidassia, Ramgarhia and Ahluwalia are saanjha to the whole Qaum in terms of the pride they should instill in us. And yes one day we will all come together. But that day needs to be before 2021 census in Punjab or Sikhi will be in the minority in Punjab by then. We basically have eight years maximum to rid ourselves of this cancer or face the consequences. UK = United Gurdwaray and an end to educational, financial, residential, health and matrimonial discrimination are part of the solution.

UK = Paji GPS I'm pleased to finally say that I actually agree with much of what you say in this thread. I don't agree with the level of respect N30 Paji holds for certain Indic figures, however, I do believe that N30 Paji's natural hamdardi for the Sanatan side of the Sikh spectrum would mean that out of myself and him, he could draw more Hindu brothers and sisters into Sikhi. And i feel that it doesn't matter too much via which marg people join the Sikh Panth - so long as we kindly and lovingly encourage others to join Sikhi as an enlarged Panth's greater population presence has greater ability to do Sarbat dha Bhalla. UK = For example, 300 million Sikhs can help the poor and oppressed of the World much more if our Panth is 300 million strong rather than 30 million strong currently or 3 million if we exclude the sehajdhari majority. If we start excluding schools of thought that we dislike we might end up with 30,000 or 300,000 Sikhs - who in isolation will never make a global impact on a world of 7billion people. GPS = Main threat to sikhi is from within i.e. nastik missionaries within us.we can defeat a visible enemy but it becomes quite difficult to identify an enemy within. UK = Obviously, I disagree with you here Paji. Female infanticide, the drugs epidemic, jaath-paath divisions including separate Gurdwaray, the defeat of poverty and illiteracy, the rise of Dera's funded by the Panth's enemies are some obviously bigger threats to the Panth. GPS = Only one akal purakh is to be worshipped. Devtas could not surpass maya. WE are to follow gurbani and at the sametime do not show disrespect to any other religion. IT is their belief and be good to them. GPS = God resides in everyone. When we say sargun all humanity is sargun.But we have to realize parmatma by becoming guruwala i.e. taking amrit and then practice naam simran and follow gurbani. UK = Agreed Paji. Naam simran means different things to different people, of course :-) GPS = Bhai sahib n30 singh ji i respect you as a genuine gursikh with lots of love for sikhi, But in gurbani only one akal purakh is to believed in and worshipped.other devi, devtas were engrossed in maya and gurbani states that.They are not to be worshipped by sikhs. UK = 100% agree with u GPS Paji

UK = Agreed Paji but I don't believe Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) or Panthpreet Singh Khalsa have rejected Sikhi in any way, shape or form. I truly believe that they want the Panth's Chardi Kallah. The fact that they emphasise that poisitive practical actions as the best way for our Qaum to defeat the drugs epidemic, the plague of female infanticide and upliftment of the Qaum on all other levels convinces me that they are committed to Sikhi 100%. UK = I completely disagree Paji. I genuinely believe that Sri Anandpur Sahib is more important to our Panth historically and in the present and for the future than Sri Hemkunt Sahib. It's vital for us to place the founding of the Khalsa Panth in prominence when we interpret history as opposed to the Mata Durga "Dusht Daman" stuff. Note Paji that the words Dusht Daman need not be said for the story to be told. UK = I respect them for that. Sikhi is about practical action alongside spirtuality UK = Paji I'm not sure if Dr Panthpreet Singh Khalsa was the person you were debating with on Sikhnet as no GurSikh should ever be scared of what they believe in. Sirf Rabh tho sanu darrna chy-dhaii. I don't believe Panthic.org to be an impartial site - however, i respect that they do their best for Sikhi as per their interpretation (which is staunchly in favour of 100% of Charitropakhiyan and Bachittar Natak) In today's so-called DG the first chapter, the longest, comprising one third of the book, is devoted to the glory and greatness of Kal, emphasizing his destructive power and invincibility. At the outset the writer says that this is from the mouth of Patshahi 10 (Guru Gobind Singh) and then he invokes the blessing of sword (kharag) for the successful completion of the manuscript. It is replete with Hindu mythology. Most of the attributes ascribed to Kal are the attributes of God described in AGGS. The next three chapters are about the ancestors of Guru Nanak Dev and Guru Govind Singh. Both Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh are described as descendents of Sri Ram Chander, the mythical God in Human form who was a king in the mythical age of Treta. His sons, Lav and Kush founded the City of Lahore and Kasur in Punjab, respectively, and ruled over there for a very long time. Later on there was a war between their descendents. It was a long war. Shiv Ji with his army of ghosts and goblins witnessed the battle scenes. The Lavis, who were then called Sodhis, defeated their rivals, the Kushis, who then ran away to Kashi. The Kushis were called Bedis after they learned to recite the four Vedas (sacred Hindu scriptures). Later on a Sodhi king sent an emissary to them with the message, “Let us forget the past; come back to Punjab.” The Bedis came back and recited the Vedas to the Sodhi king. All his sins were washed away after listening to the Vedas. The Sodhi king was so much pleased that as an act of gratitude he donated his kingdom to the Bedis. This made the Bedi clan so happy that in return the head of the Bedi clan granted a boon to the Sodhi ex-king. “O pious one, when I will take birth in the age of Kaljug, I will make you worthy of world-wide veneration. As you first listened to the first three Vedas and then donated your kingdom while listening to the fourth Veda, so I will transfer the Guruship to you after I have become Guru three times, consecutively.” This absurd story is an affront to commonsense and the sucession of GurGaddi on a spiritual basis. The writer of Bachittar Natak implies that Guru Nanak (Bedi) and the six Gurus (Sodhi), Ram Das to Gobind Singh became Gurus because their ancestors were very pious Hindus, who studied Vedas or were very generous to those who recited Vedas to them. In other words, it was due to the blessing earned through the study of Vedas or the donation of kingdom to the reciter of Vedas, which was responsible for the reward of Guruship. On the contrary, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das acquired Guruship after they gave up their Hindu faith and study of Vedas and other Hindu scriptures. No wonder, the writer does not mention their lineage or how did they earn the Guruship? The writer of Bachittar Natak does not know that belief in caste and lineage contradicts Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj’s own edict of Kul Nash (freedom from lineage) and the founding of the Khalsa Panth. Besides, the first three Gurus did not come from a Bedi family, only Guru Nanak was born into a Bedi family, Gurus Angad Dev and Amardas were born in Trehan and Bhala family, respectively. The writer also implies that Guru Angad Dev was the reincarnation of Guru Nanak and Guru Amardas was the reincarnation of Guru Angad Dev, but the first three Gurus were contemporaries and reincarnation takes place after the death of a person. Moreover, Gurmat rejects the concept of reincarnation as interpreted in Manu Smriti. Furthermore, AGGS does not agree with the teachings of Vedas. It is the teachings of Vedas, which has created the concepts of sin and virtue, hell and heaven, and karma and transmigration. One reaps the reward in the next life for deed performed in this life – goes to hell or heaven according to the deeds. The Vedas have also created the fallacy of inequality of caste and gender for the world. AGGS, M 2, p 1243. I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis; their teachings do not show the way to God, but the dwelling on God’s attributes is invaluable.” AGGS, M5, p 265. Brahma got tired of studying the Vedas, but they could not estimate even an iota of God’s greatness. Ten incarnations of Vishnu and the famous ascetic Shiv who got tired of smearing his body with ashes, could not fathom God’s extent.” AGGS, M 5, p 747. O brother, Simrti is the outcome on the Vedas. It has brought the chains of the caste system and the ropes of liturgy to entrap you. AGGS, Kabir, p 329. I shall not sing the endless songs and poetry of Vedas, Purans and Shastars. I shall play a steady tune on the flute of love for the Formless One Whose abode is Eternal. AGGS, Namdev, p 972. If one determines good or bad actions on the basis of Vedas and Purans, one’s mind is filled with doubt and worry. These scriptures do not tell how to cure self-conceit. AGGS, Ravi Das, p 364. Additionally, the Lav / Kush story is contradicted by Goswami Tulsi Das, the author of Ramayan, who was a contemporary of Guru Nanak. He has described the incidents from Sri Ram Chandher’s life in great detail. According to him, Sri Ram Chander or his sons never extended their rule beyond U. P. in the direction of Punjab. He does not mention any relationship between Sri Ram Chander and Guru Nanak Dev or Guru Gobind Singh. There is no evidence that he ever met Guru Nanak. Furthermore, Bedis or Sodhis never ruled over any part of Punjab in the recorded history of this region. The writer has described the war between the ancestors of Guru Nanak Dev and Guru Gobind Singh going back thousands of generations. However, he makes no mention of the martyrdom Guru Arjan Dev and the victories of Guru Hargobind Sahib over his employers the Mughals. The writer also does not say what happened to the ancestors of Gurus Nanak Dev and Guru Gobind Singh during the Duaper age when lord Krishna of the famous “Krishna Lila” was supreme. May be the writer does not like Sri Krishna because the he was a devotee of Shiv Ji. For the sake of argument, let us assume that Sri Ram Chander was a real person and his sons, Lav and Kush were born near the end of Treta age. And their descendents continued propagating through the Duaper age while enjoying Krishan Lila and continued propagating in the Kaljug age to produce Sodhis and Bedis. According to Mahan Kosh the duration of Duaper is 864,000 years.29 According to modern science, the ancestors of modern man evolved not more than 250,000 years ago in Africa. There were no human beings in India during Treta. So the story that Lav and Kush lived in India more than 864,000 years ago is baseless. In the sixth chapter in "his own story" the writer talks about his previous life and his communication with God. “I was meditating on Mahankal (Shiv Ji) and Kalika (goddess) on a snowy mountain called Hem Kunt while my parents were praying to Alakh (Formless, God) and perfecting their Yogic discipline. When God was pleased with them, He ordered me to take birth in the age of Kaljug. I did not want to come to the world; however, God persuaded me by expressing His helplessness and frustration. “Whatever I have created and whosoever I have sent to the world so far, did not bring Me glory. Son, all my hopes are on you, go there, straighten out the world and spread My glory.” After this God narrated the story of creation: “After creating the world, I created the demons, who turned out to be unfaithful. These tyrants stopped My worship. So I got angry at the demons and destroyed them in a moment and replaced them with Shiv Ji, Vishnu, and Brahma. They too turned out to be untrustworthy; as they refused to recognize Me and instead proclaimed themselves to be God. Then I created eight witnesses to monitor the actions of living beings. But they too proclaimed that there is no one else other than them worthy of worship. Instead of worshiping Me, stupid people started worshiping gods, sun, moon, air, and fire. Many of them started worshiping stones and performing rituals. Then I created human beings, who got enchanted by the material world (maya) and started worshiping idols.” Here, the storyteller is confused. If human beings were the last in the sequence of creation then who were worshiping sun, moon, fire, and air and stones and performing rituals? Were they not human beings? Did they belong to another kind of human species? Besides, why did God choose the writer of “his own story,” who was also a worshiper of Mahan Kal and Kalika, to glorify His name? Moreover, the God described in “my own story” is helpless, frustrated and confused. He is more like an incompetent manger without control over his subordinates. Now let us compare the God described in “my own story” to the God described in AGGS, Who is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Nanak says, “The Self-Exitent God created nature and manifested Itself as Naam (Immanent) therein to enjoy it... God created the world of life and manifested Itself as Naam therein to promote righteousness.” AGGS, m 1, p 463. God creates all, fills all and is yet the Infinite Creator is unattached. AGGS, M1, p 937. “My own story” raises questions that defy commonsense and repudiate the teachings of AGGS. How could anybody survive up on a snowy mountain in that severe cold weather sitting in meditating posture for a very long time as the writer of the story claims to have done? Moreover, the type of mediation described in “my own story” is rejected by Gurmat. It has no spiritual merit whatsoever. Pilgrimage, austerity, compassion and charity alone earn very little spiritual merit. AGGS, M 1, p 4. In what is nowadays called Dasam Granth, God Himself created the successors of Baba Nanak and Babur. Recognize the former as spiritual and latter as temporal sovereign. The successors of Babur punished and looted the property of those who failed to tithe the house of Nanak. When these penniless wretched ones begged Sikhs for help, the Mughals looted Sikhs who helped them. The Guru also shunned them. The Mughals punished and killed those who turned their back on the Guru, but those who remained faithful, were saved by the Guru. From the above it is quite obvious that the writer was an apologist for the Mughals, one of those who used to sing paeans to the rulers “Eeshvro va Dilishvro va, (The emperor of Delhi is as great as God).” Moreover, either he was ignorant of Babur Bani (Guru Nanak’s composition about Babur’s invasion) and Sikh history or he indulged in gross distortion of both. For example, Guru Nanak denounced the invasion and atrocities committed by Babur’s forces. O Lalo, Babur the groom has invaded with a marriage party of sin from Kabul and demands the surrender of India as a bride by force. Shame and morality have disappeared and falsehood has overtaken. Instead of Qazis and Brahmans the devil is performing the marriage ceremony. AGGS, M 1 p 722. Moreover, Guru Nanak denounced the rulers of his time very forcefully. The rulers are like ferocious tigers and their officials as wild dogs, who harass and persecute the innocent subjects. AGGS, M, 1, p 1288. Unless the petitioner bribes, even the king does not accept the petition. If someone petitions only in the name of God (justice), no body listens. AGGS, M 1. P 350. The Gurus opposed the tyranny and bigotry of Muslim rulers and took up arms against them. Guru Gobind Singh’s great grandfather, Guru Arjan Dev was tortured to death on the orders of Jehangir,his grandfather Guru Hargobind Singh fought against Shah Jahan, and Auragnjeb was responsible for the death of his father, mother, four sons and hundreds of Sikhs. From the time of Jehangir, the Mughal rulers tried to destroy the movement started by Guru Nanak. Thus, the analysis of the contents of BN described above demonstrates unequivocally that BN is not the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Conclusion The author(s) of spurious parts of the Bachittar Natak was grossly ignorant of Gurmat and Sikh history. The Mughals purpose in those parts was to subvert Sikhism for anti-Sikh forces by subliminally denigrating Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. These clearly Mughal paid scribes were quite successful in misleading gullible but sincere Sikhs. For anyone to suggest that Bachittar Natak is a 100% authentic autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is an affront to common sense and insult to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj as the father of the Khalsa Panth and an unabashed repudiation of Gurmat - just as anti-Sikh forces like the Mughals and elite Hindu's would hae wished.

DSG = Please take note of the following points, they are each important and are in no specific order. There are many many more points, these are just a few that come to mind at the moment. DSG = When there have already been countless katha, discussions, articles and books on the topic of meat in Sikhi, why do these missionaries have to go and tell what they think when they clearly know it's a controversial topic? If they truly are not breaking up the Sangat, they would not even bring the topic up. But no, they are too egotistic, so they like to show that they are "knowledgeable in every topic, no matter how controversial it may be.UK = Paji, I myself don't eat meat. However, I totally believe that the Khalsa Fauj was not restricted to vegetarian bhojan in the absence of such food being available to them. Neither do I believe it is wrong for some tribes in the poorer parts of the World to survive on meat when they don't have the luxury of plentiful wheat or other protein foods and supermarkets as we benefit from in the West. If they are pointing out their interpretation based from their reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj then I don't see a problem with it. But yes let both sides of the meat and Charitropkhiyan debates agree to peacably disagree and focus on matters where we need to unite in order to combat for the benefit of the Panth. DSG = If they are truly on Sikhs' side, then why do they make fun of the people who respect Dasam Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Granth Sahib and also treat the pothis/gutkaas with very little respect at all? They mock faithful Sikhs by calling them "Dasam Granthis" and "Kalka Panthis" and stuff like that. Now you tell me how that supposedly brings the Sangat together?UK = Speaking for myself, I genuinely respect the vast majority of today's pro-DG Sangat as I see total reverance for Dasme PaathShah in their hearts. However, it must be recognised that many in the pro-DG Sangat label those who do not ascribe authorship of Charitropakhiyan fully to Dasme PaathShah as being non-Sikh. When we can see that someone heart is in the right place for the advancement of the Panth, it's wrong to doubt another's intentions (unless their actions prove otherwise) from either side of the debate. DSG = If they don't want to break the Sangat up, then why do they not hold discussions with Singhs who have opposite views than them? Instead they only meet with those who support their views, yet they don't hold back in critisizing others. They play a game of "keep away", where no matter how many fights and protests happen in and around Gurdwaras, they don't openly speak with those who question their views. Now you tell me how this connects the Sangat.UK = I don't believe that holding an opinion or vichar about it should be interpreted as being with the intention of breaking up Sangat. Intellectually speaking, we need to roll with the punches (in a respectful manner in our to deepen our knowledge) - though, of course not physically speaking! :-) DSG = They openly speak against Giani Sant Singh Jee Maskeen, Bhai Pinderpal Singh Jee, Bhai Harjinder Singh Jee Sri Nagar Vale, Bhai Balwinder Singh Rangila, Bhai Inderjeet Singh Bombay Vaaley (Darbaar Sahib Hazoori Raagi), Bhai Baldev Singh Vadala (Darbar Sahib Hazoori Raagi), etc. Now you can tell me when 99% of Sangat loves these people, they are openly promoting hatred against them and now lots of the Sangat is split where people love them and people hate them. Just recently in USA, Sangat and Gurdwara rejected Bhai Pinderpal Singh Jee but welcomed Dhunda with open arms. You tell me how this joins the Sangat together.UK = I respect all of the above mentioned Kathavachaks. However, if any anti-Gurmat position has been stated by any of the above, then I don't think it's a crime to point that out. The people protesting against a certain interpretation of Sikhi are equally guilty of making matters hostile. We all just need to take a step back and debate respectfully and without hostility - where it can be shown that people aren't actually dying as a result of a certain interpretation of Sikhi. DSG = They don't believe in Naam Simran, Naam Abhiaas and Amritvela. They call it "totaa ratan" (parrot blabbering/repetition) and "mechanical repetition". That is uncalled for and not necessary. It clearly divides up the Sangat. Please tell me how that kind of mockery and name-calling joins the Sangat together.UK = I don't agree with the terminolgy "thotha ratan" but I absolutely do believe that Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa are 100% correct when stressing on the need for positive practical actions towards Sarbat dha Bhalla after Naam Simran. After all, Sikh ik vakhri Qaum nay from Hindu's etc. DSG = Why do they play politics by always going after Badal and SGPC. Missionaries are clearly with Sarna. They never once criticized Sarna or DGMC even though many bad things have happened in Delhi and Delhi Gurdwaras in the past 10 years alone. They are clearly playing politics. And while doing so, they try and bring down Sikhs' faith in Takhats and Jathedaars. They openly stand against Takhats and Jathedaars. Is that what someone who wants to join the Sangat would do?UK = I personally am glad that Sarna was defeated in the DGMPC elections. However, if the Delhi Sangat itself is more receptive to the pro-Gurmat ideology then that is no fault of the Kathvachiks in question. Parallel parkash of today's so-called DG with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is why this has become a "hot button" issue. Obviously, you know what happens at Sri Hazur Sahib and Sri Patna Sahib. DSG = In one of your comments above you said that we should see which parts are authentic and which parts are not...but for heaven's sake....to try and put this much doubt in Sangat's mind that even Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib are not Gurbani..come on.UK = Personally, I don't see the issue with Sri Jaap Sahib and Sri Chaupai Sahib. My personal issues lie with the bulk of the remainder of Charitropakhiyan and the (imho fake) Ram Chander genealogy ascribed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and the Hem Khunt story which tries to tell us that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's GurGaddi is not what we should be wholly concerned with and focussed upon but that a supposed past life in service of the Hindu's Mata Durga is somehow relavant compared to the founding of the Khalsa Panth and Sri Anandpur Sahib - which is what I believe all Sikhs should focus on more. DSG = The ardaas is accepted by the whole panth. Yet many of their associates have changed the ardaas in major ways and made their own ardaas. You tell me how this joins the Sangat together.UK = Our Ardaas has evolved over time and historically has not remained static. Consultation at the Akaal Takht to agree a fully Gurmat universally approved Ardaas suitabke for today would not harm our Panth in any way. DSG = They over-state things and make things over-emmotional to get support. Like for Dasam Granth. "Oh no, the RSS is trying to bring in another Granth and trying to take away Guru Granth Sahib Jee". Like come on, that type of emotional-manipulation is clearly not trying to connect the Sangat. There has been no controversy on Dasam Granth in hundreds of years. YET, all of a sudden Kala-Afghana, Missionaries, etc come into the picture and act as if they are saving everybody from some horrible demon.UK = Paji I disagree with you completely on the above paragraph. The RSS Durga Pujari's are overjoyed that in Bachhittar Natak, Guru Gobind Singh is flasely desrcibed by the anti-Sikh author of that segment as being descended from the Hindu God in human form - Ram Chander. The Hem Khunt and servitude to the Hindu Mata Durga of the father of the Khalsa Panth obviously makes the RSS rejoice. Up until a century the composition was known as Bachittar Natak in its totality. Then it's Dasam Granth. The Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Now Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Given the increasing parallel parkash witnessed in recent times it seems inevitable that certain segments wish for equal credence to be given to all of Charitropkhiyan as much as to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj - which Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj already appointed as our sole Guru. UK = In conclusion, the much of the issue rests upon the following: UK = Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who took Amrit from the Punj Piare ... and who emphasised ke "manas ki jaath sabhe ek pech'chaanbo" ... and dedicated his whole life to overturning tyranny, discrimination, the wretched caste system etc, etc and who the whole Panth knows was the Paragon of Nimrata and Humility ... suddenly out of nowhere decides to (allegedly) broadcast to the whole world that the Hindu's Avatar (or "God in Human Form") Ram Chander is his divine ancestor ... and some within our Panth cannot see this is a blatant interjection by anti-Sikh pro-caste forces aligned with the Mughals in order to malign Sikhi ... study Vasakhi 1699 rather than Dusht Daman or Durga or Charitropakhiyan stories and come to your own conclusion brother.UK = Is Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj more important or relavant ... or the alternative Dusht Daman + Charitropakhiyan type narrations?UK = Which historical event is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... or the supposed slaying of demons by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand as well as stories which are fairly common in bookshops? UK = Please bear in mind DSG Paji that those parts which do not contradict the ethos of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are not in dispute, so it is the aforementioned adulteration that is the issue at hand and the parallel parkash of the same which is disputed.