UKLondonSikh

Question to the forum Sangat. What did your Gurdwara Committee do today in order to mark and educate the Sangat about Dhan Dhan (Guru) Ravidas Ji Maharaj given the Janam Diwas? Please note that Guru does have a simple Sanskrit meaning of (Great) Teacher in a non-Sikhi and non-GurGadhee sense - hence I have no problem using the term given that Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's shloks are within Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj whereas for example, some of our Guru Sahib's (who were one jyot) are not. And correspondingly since our current Guru contains Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj's words I don't think we should be overly sensitive about terms of respectful address - particularly so when we are interacting with those under the influence Dera Ballan Congress ideology.

Exactly Paji and we're continuing to let them succeed by not realising that our situation is far more grave now in Feb 2013 than it was in Feb 1983. Merely raising the same slogans repeatedly since 1984 (when the political landscape has evolved globally) without the collective action to combat today's GhalluGhara's of drugs, infanticide as well as apartheid-like segregation within our Qaum and Gurdwaray and the proliferation of fake dera's sponsored and applauded by Congress and the RSS is getting us nowhere. All we can do is do our best individually and in association with like minded Sangat to combat this and beat our enemies. http://www.khalsaaid.org/pure.html http://www.sikhnet.c...emale-foeticide http://www.sikhsanga...per-local-area/ http://sangattelevis...ngat-education/

N30 Paji i wanted to reply you in detail before and regrettably I don't have the time to just now but I wanted to briefly say the following: I don't believe Hindutva and RSS can be beaten by Sikhs if we continue with our current mindset of seeking to restrict the definition of Sikh to as few people as possible ... whereas our opponents cleverly seek to include anybody and everybody within the term Hindu. The truth is that spiritually Bharat is a majority Sikh population state in natural terms given the poverty and injustice hundreds of millions oppressed and malnourished suffer (which Sikhi seeks to end via Sarbat dha Bhalla). All the gareeb and oppressed in the World and all the free thinkers who wish for equality and justice in global society are natural born Sikhs. Punjab at one level is a 99% Sikh population state if we accept the definition that whosoever bows before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is a Sikh (regardless of if that person's birth surname was Kumar or Gupta or Sharma or Mehra or Khan or Smith). If we are going to the extent of saying that the 90% sehajdhari majority are not Sikh ... we play right into the RSS Hindutva ideology's hands. They are only too willing to accept and announce them as Hindu's. Much as I personally dislike Dera Sirsa, Dera Ballan, Radha Swami landgrabbers and the 1978 Nirankari's ... we even need to be careful not to exclude these folks from the wider loooser definition of the Panth ... but instead try to actively widen the inclusion of Sikhs to include the hundred million plus comprising those such as the Jatavs from UP etc and all Kabirpanthi's and Satnami's in India. Numbers are critical. The more sehajdhari population we have, a greater of committed Amritdhari GurSikhs will automatically arise from within those wider ranks. Those that do take Amrit need to be as committed as the Panj Pyaaray were out of the Sikh Sangat approaching one lakh in 1699. That is how precious and pure our Khalsa Panth needs to be if we are serious about beating Hindutva. If we try to limit the definition of "Sikh" to as small a population as possible, we will struggle to beat Hindutva which is cleverly doing the opposite. The Madhya Pradesh Sikhs were always Sikh from day one as are all the poor in India and globally. It's only cultural brainwashing from Hindutva that makes them "think" that they are Hindu or any other faith their oppressors have locked them into. Of course, the Amritdhari marg is only for the best of the best within the Panth and can never be diluted. As the Khalsa Panth is defined by the quality of it's actions as opposed to the sheer quantity of its membership.

I wouldn't quite go so far as to say that Paji but I totally agree with you that divisive TV politics at the expense of ekta is unforgivable. Imagine how many gareeb even £1million could assist via education and healthcare. If the Muslims have 20 stations funded by the Saudi's let them. We need to think and act smart with our smaller resources. Muslims+Hindu's+Christians spend multi-millions on their places of worship and we somehow feel the need to copy of them. When Guru Sahib made it clear that we need simple Gurdwaray (without Gold on them) with the emphasis of golak funds being spent for upliftment of the oppressed and with a strong united saanjha Sangat

Whilst this is wonderful news ... I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Dera Ballan Congress machine is working to take away from Sikhi over 3 million Sikhs whose ancestors followed the same trade as Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj, Giani Ditt Singh Ji of Singh Sabha and Bhai Sangat Singh Ji of the 40 Mukhte whom Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj appointed as the leader of our Khalsa Fauj - bravely fighting against the overwhelming numerical advantage held the imperial armies of Aurangzeb's Muslim Empire at the time. If we can destroy jaath-paath in Punjab ... when non-Punjabi's realise that the majority of the Punj Pyaaray came from as far afield across India as Bidar in South India, Orissa in Eastern India and Gujarat ... then maybe Sikhi can one day became a majority dharm in India. That would be a true Khalsa Desh of Begumpura's

That's the thing Jonny Paji. We as a Sangat (myself included) are not seeing clearly enough that we are all on the same side. I think it's disingenuous of opponents of the Gurmat Gian ideology to suggest that controversial aspects of Bachittar Natak and Charitropakhiyan are the only topics certain Kathavachiks mention. That simply isn't true but it's what they are associated with. Paji, I've read your posts and I know in my heart that you are 100% committed to Sikhi ... so why would I, as someone who openly supports the Gurmat Gian position on many issues (even though I don't eat meat myself) wish to argue with you as my brother when I know that you want Sikhi to be in Chardi Kallah with all your heart? Thus these confrontations between pro and anti-Dhunda forces are really not doing our Qaum any good - even though we do need respectful debate (preferably behind closed doors) on what is authentic Gurbani within certain sections of today's DG. I'm confident you agree with me on this Paji

Paji if i land in Calgary tomorrow, I'd be happy that I have a GurSikh brother there in you, regardless of our differences in opinion. But are you seriously telling me that if Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda) and Panthpreet Singh Khalsa say that naam simran must be accompanied thereafter by action against jaath-paath, female infanticde, drugs in Punjab etc that they are against the Panth and they are biggest enemy of Sikhi? I'm telling you straight Paji I honestly believe that the Gurmat Gian MCL ideology is increasing no matter what you try to do to withold it or deny it and the number of Sikhs and Khalsa will increase accordingly! Sikhi is 100% pure logic and it's undefeatable! Peace!

UK = Paji i think we need to remember who are real enemies are. In 1947 they wiped out at least 10% of the Sikh Population at the time. In earlier GhalluGhara's they killed more than 50% of the Sikh population at the time. If Sajjan Kumar that proud Jatt leader is still walking around Delhi enjoying crores of wealth that him and his Jatt goons gained by killing innocent Sikhs ... why should we be talking about using baseball bats on fellow Sikhs? I hope you feel me, brother. No matter what views people hold we should still have pyaar and respect for fellow Sikhs ... provided Sikhs are not being killed off by the said individuals (that you or me might oppose) in the similar manner that CM Beanta and KPS Gill specialised in.

DSG Paji, Jonny Paji and GPS Paji ... respected brothers I'm not going to hide the fact that I actually respect Panthpreet Singh Khalsa and Sarbjit Singh Khalsa (Dhunda)'s opinions on certain issues where I believe they are upholding Gurmat and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj above manmat concepts that have gained credence within the Panth thanks to anti-Sikh forces. But that aside, why not let us look at how all of us on different sides of the spectrum can unite upon easy to agree subjects such as the defeat of drugs in Punjab, an end to female infanticide in Punjab, increasing literacy to 100% and helping our gareeb brothers and sisters globally of whatever background. So why not us various sympathisers of two differing viewpoints look to how we can unite Dhunda Sahib, Panthpreet Singh and others with Gurmat Gian ideology with those you hold in high esteem? Imagine our Panth's chardi kallah if we all work unitedly on the key issues and debate the smaller ideological issues once we have jointly achieved victory on the bigger central issues facing our Qaum. Gurfateh!

Paji you might also be able to get something from the HSE or if the CDM specifically mentions about GurSikh operatives on the job. On private non-NHBC type jobs up to say 5/6 storeys nobody from the HSE or building control nobody usually says anything about turbans in lieu of helmets (obviously with lower risks involved) but I can see you might face opposition at a larger job, at greater height of the kind you mention, so best to take a printout of the relavant legislation and keep it with you. Good luck!

I had Sangat TV on this morning. Got home around 7.40pm today and switched on the TV and lo and behold there was a Matrimonials programme in which, on a nationwide Sikhi channel, jaath-paath of individuals was being mentioned. I was utterly disgusted and I wanted to alert the forum members about this. Both Sikh Channel and Sangat TV have done a great deal to push forward the agenda of Sikhi in the UK. But when the pioneer of Sikh Channel is pushing jaath-paath divisions to hundreds of thousands of youngsters via Sikh Channel's "sister" station dedicated to music and Sangat TV have stooped so low so as to cave in to pressure for mentioning biraderi, something has got to be done, in terms of peaceful, polite protest against this madness. Fair enough it is ok, in my opinion, that applicants can be mentioned as Amritdhari, Kesdhari or Sehajdhari but anything further is a disgrace. And I believe we the UK Sangat should make it clear to the two channels we will withold support to them until they eliminate all forms of normalising this cancer that exists within the community 314 years after Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj initiated the Khalsa Panth. Logically, it is madness for the UK Sikh Sangat to spend out £150,000 a month supporting two stations when we need only one saanjha station operating at £75,000 per month ... with the other almost £1million a year thereby saved being better deployed to assist the gareeb and uneducated and unhealthy in Punjab and elsewhere. I think we need a massive parchaar campaign to educate parents and youngsters involved in this cancerous jaath-paath discrimination mess about what actually occurred at Vasakhi 1699. We need to make it clear to people that if they regard themselves as anything other than Sikh that they should advertise and broadcast themselves as Hindu's and Muslims. Not Sikh. If people feel superiority in being Jatt, Tharkhan, Chamar, Khatri etc, etc or wish to enforce caste apartheid at Matrimonial level them let's make it clear to them that they should advertise and parade their identity as Muslim Jatts, Hindu Tharkhans, Hindu Chamars and never dare to hyphenate their biraderi identity to which they are so loyal with the suffix "Sikh". All sections of the community fought within the Ramgarhia Misl with over 90% of the Gursikh warriors being of an ancestry different to what Bhai Lalo Ji did yet the term Ramgarhia has been falsely misappropriated and taken away from the wider Panth. Similarly, only true Sikhs are true Ravidassia's yet these Dera Ballan Congress pimps dare to try appropriate that term away from us as Sikhs. It's common knowledge that the vast 80% majority of Jatts are proud of being Muslims and Hindu's and those 80% of Jatts in Pakistan and Haryana/Delhi look at 1947 and 1984 with a sense of pride as to how they dealt with innocent Sikhs ... yet some of their brethren in East Punab who claim to be Sikh are now looking for Backward Caste status in Punjab instead of looking to tackle the root of the problem - lack of ekta and discrimination within the Panth. We also need to make it more extensively known that Mata Gujri Ji, the wife of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj and Mother of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, was of Gujjar descent - thereby proving that our Guru's did not marry according to the Hindu and Muslim caste rules that surrounded them, as each and every one of our Guru's flatly rejected any biraderi appelation ascribed them by the Mughals and other anti-Sikh scribes working for the Muslim Empire. How do we tackle this in 2013? Suggestions from everyone on the forum welcome. First and foremost let's email Sikh Channel and Sangat TV to air our concerns. Let's write to our various local Gurdwara committees promoting biraderi on their matrimonial listings. The painting of the Sahibzade being moved for health and safety reasons caused a great commotion. But the biggest (saanjha) Gurdwara in the country referencing biraderi identity in their matrimonial listings hasn't been tackled as the bigger issue of the two facing the Qaum. And day by day more of our community's youngsters are getting brainwashed into this cancerous anti-Sikh ideology of jaath-paath via Sikh Channel's secular "sister" music station. By all means let's debate smaller ideological issues (which are important in there own right at a smaller level) with pyaar and satkaar but we need to be a solid united front for the real matters that fundamentally matter.

Kaljugi Paji it's the proximity to Pakistan that is responsible for the increased prevalance of drugs and HIV there. Instead of us doing yatra's to the historic Gurdwara's in Pakistan we need to simply pray at our local Gurdwara's and focus the money saved on travelling to Pakistan (which is then used by the ISI to flood our side of Punjab with even more heroine etc) concentrated on local upliftment, education and Sikhi parchar as the most effective way to combat drugs and HIV.

Paji, i understand your sentiments but we are far from from helpless. We as a Qaum are 30million strong. On these clear cut issues we have total unity. We just need to battle within our lives to either be in a position to effect direct change at the grass roots like the sevadars of Khalsa Aid, KalgiDhar Trust, Pingalwara etc are doing or failing that work towards contributing the maximum daswand and spreading awareness of these problems. Every time our wretched enemies attack us - we as a Panth regroup and come out of it stronger. If we get to the day where 99% of Sikhs don't touch drugs or alcohol, 99% are literate, 99% oppose jaath-paath, guaranteed all of Hindustan's name will change to Khalistan within a generation or two of that ... as remember back in 1699 our Punj Pyaaray came from Gujarat, Orissa, South India ... you name it. This is a batte for our survival whereby our usual enemies are trying to kill us. This time round we have to defeat our enemies the smart way. Naaray and memorials (when that money+energy can be harnessed elsewhere) won't really advance us much in this modern day Dharam Yudh. But you are correct that we are in way more trouble now in 2013 than we were in 1983.

The drugs GhalluGhara where the profits from dead Sikh bodies fund millionaire lifestyles in Lahore and Delhi, the female infanticide GhalluGhara and the division of the Panth along lines and Gurdwara's determined by one's family background need a more determined Dharam Yudh now today in 2013 than was the case when Indira Gandhi was hellbent on murdering innocent Sikhs almost 30 years ago. If we can't win the battle on these three objectives as well as ensuring 100% literacy within the Panth it kind of renders dreams for the resurrection of Khalsa Raj indefinitely on hold. We won't achieve Khalsa Raj until our Qaum is virtually 100% drugs free, with an equal male/female ratio and united saanjhay Sangat Gurdwara's in every locality and educated youth who can meaningfully do seva for the Panth and wider humanity. The youth in the Diaspora can lead this Dharam Yudh via our actions now and through daswand or direct participation and by increasing literacy amongst the poor and oppressed globally we can ensure more fighters for the Sikh battle to ensure Sarbat dha Bhalla for all humanity. http://www.khalsaaid.org/pure.html http://www.sikhnet.com/news/fighting-female-foeticide http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66391-mergers-so-that-only-1-gurdwara-per-local-area/ http://sangattelevision.org/sangat-projects/sangat-education/

I'm afraid this is a very one-sided debate whereby Sarbjit Singh Dhunda's supposed positions are being stated by his opponents - which is akin to Indira Gandhi painting Sant Ji as a terrorist ... Let's analyse the position of the viewpoints that Dhunda Sahib holds and examine whether they are in fact actually pro-Sikhi or anti-Sikhi. I don't agree with everything Sarbjit Singh Khalsa says but I agree with him on certain key crucial points like the following (in no particular order): Firstly that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji's shaheedi and the GurGaddi passing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is far more important or relavant ... than the alternative Dusht Daman and Charitropakhiyan type narrations. Secondly that the historical event which is more important to what Sikhi is about fundamentally ... is the birth of the Khalsa Panth at Sri Anandpur Sahib ... as opposed to the supposed slaying of demons on behalf of the Hindu Goddess Maa Durga by Dusht Daman in (allegedly) Uttarakhand near Sri Hemkunt Sahib Ji. Thirdly that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is the ultimate guide and sufficient protection for all Sikhs ... and that the true light of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj shines brightly enough to ward off kaam away from the mind of any pure Amritdhari Gursikh. And that by extension those that allege that the worldly tales from Charitropakhiyan are so badly needed (as they often claim such material is not covered elsewhere in sufficient depth) in are in fact doing Beadbi of Maharaj by effectively implying that in some way Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is deficient or lacks depth - which is clearly wrong. Paji saday varge un'parrah nu Charitropakhiyan de structure baaray ki janaan di lodh haii? Sikh'ah vasthay saada Guru Granth Sahib bathera nai haii? Guru Sahib said "Guru maneyo Granth" when at that time there was parkash of only one Granth - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. That's fine if Gurmukhs such as yourself wish to concentrate on the Charitropakhiyan tales whereas the rest of the naastiks and manmukhs focus on Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Fostering Unity is a key objective for our Qaum. However, propagation or acceptance of falsehood never does the Panth any good (as we can see via our Qaum's inadequate response to jaath-paath divisions that have mushroomed since 1984) and such falsehood like parallel prakash of anti-Gurmat material has to be opposed (with pyaar and satkaar). Sikhi is all about standing up for the Truth. “Sayeth Nanak: Falsehood fails. Only His Truth is left standing …” [Guru Amar Das, GGS:1283.17] Mehtab Singh Paji ... in no way is Naam Simran a meaningless ritual where it is accompanied by positive practical action afterwards. As far as I am aware Paji SSD has the same reverence for Shaheeds as the rest of the Sangat on this forum, if not more so. Paji I personally don't eat meat but do you not agree that the Khalsa Fauj was not restricted to vegetarian food in the absence of such bhojan being available? Paji, if confronting one's own brothers within the Panth with shastar results in bloodshed then even avoiding such direct confrontation by virtue of maintaining a position behind bibiyaan is no bad thing. I hope you agree? Brother, no Amritdhari Gursikh like Sarbjit Singh Khalsa or any indeed any Sikh on the planet will put down authentic bani from Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. By disputing the authorship of select anti-Gurmat tales and stories within what was formerly known collectively in totality as Bachittar Natak until only a century or so ago ... it's important to realise that those who have issues with certain select parts, do so on account of their sincere belief that anti-Sikh forces authored such stories in order to belittle our Dasme Pathshah. Go direct to the source Paji, instead of biased articles. Dhunda Sahib is Amritdhari himself so surely that should tell you that it's not worth believing half of the fabrications made up to blunt the sharpness of his points regarding his opposition to anti-Gurmat influences within the Panth (Bipran ki Reet). Any Gurdwara where Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is present is a pavithaar asthaan for all of us within the Panth. However, Sarbjit Singh Khalsa is unequivocal and I totally agree with him on the point that Sri Anandpur Sahib Ji and the birth of the Khalsa Panth should hold historical precedence within our Panth's hearts and minds rather than the historical justification argued for the construction of Sri Hemkunt Sahib. Paji saday varge un'parrah nu Charitropakhiyan de structure baaray ki janaan di lodh haii? Sikh'ah vasthay saada Guru Granth Sahib bathera nai haii? Paji, how about you answer the fundamental allegation that those like Dhunda Sahib who focus on the Khalsa Panth as being central to Sikhi make against the false genealogy ascribed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj in the Bachittar Natak that you hold so dear? GPS Paji by you claiming that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is a direct descendent of Ram Chander (the Hindu Avatar “God in Human Form”) I honestly believe that you gravely insult our Dasme PaathShah (inadvertently). But please ask yourself deep down Paji if this ancestry ascribed to Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is true or false and please I request with you with pyaar to understand why those RSS Durga Pujari's who seek to malign the revolution Dashmesh Pithah sought to bring within global society and the same RSS Durga Pujari's who always seek to denigrate the Khalsa Panth are so supportive of the false ancestry ascribed by anti-Sikh forces to Guru Sahib in Bachittar Natak? Either Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj sought to obliterate the relavance of background and ancestry totally via the Khalsa Panth or as per Bachittar Natak he (allegedly) sought to expound upon it. Stand up for what you believe is true GPS Paji - I know in my heart that you have 100% sincere respect and reverence for Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj - but I ask you as your younger brother within the Panth, to please please consider very seriously and analyse whether this controversial ancestry could have been introduced as a falsehood by anti-Sikh forces or not?

Well pointed out about Bhai Sangat Singh Ji (jashb Paji) http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/67555-bhagat-ravidass-and-ravidassias/ Punks like this Congress pimp on twitter don't have any answer to the fundamental truth that Sikh are the "true" Ravidassia's -------------------- Mirch = I run a page on facebook and want to do an article on Ravidassias. Who they are etc. UK = We as Sikhs are all Ravidassia's by virtue of the fact that we bow down daily in reverence to the words of Dhan Dhan Sri Ravidas Ji Maharaj that are within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj Mirch = Can anyone please tell me about them UK = Unfortunately, by virtue of the fact that some within our community are either too ignorant to realise the above or have persisted in holding discriminatory thoughts against those whose ancestors were engaged in the same noble profession as Ravidas Ji Maharaj (of providing leather-related goods, for example shoes so that we human beings could walk safely from A to B) ... a certain percentage of Sikhs whose ancestors were engaged in the same trade as Michael Schumacher's forefathers, have chosen to self-define themselves as Ravidassia's because enough of us Sikhs don't realise that every Sikh is Ravidassia by default. Similarly, pride in the fort of Ramgarh and the Ramgarhia Misl's achievements against the Mughals was saanjha to the whole Qaum but unfortunately in modern times even those achievements have been (unfairly) appropriated away from the wider Sikh Panth's collective pride by exclusionary committees. Mirch = and why they are copying Sikh traditions such as Jaikara and Nishaan Sahib and changing it to their own style? Why Sachkhand Ballan rejected Guru Granth Sahib Ji and only uses Bhagat Ravidassi's bani? UK = At this point in time, thankfully the majority of folks in Punjab whose ancestors were connected to the leather trade are Sikh and still have devout faith in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. However, Indira Gandhi realised that as Sikhs of this ancestry comprised the second largest demographic element of our Panth after Jatts (yet faced discrimination primarily from the same) ... she realised that if this integral demographic component could be split away from the Sikh Panth it would be as if one of our Panth's arms was cut off. Hence, an elaborate plan was hatched with the Dera Ballan boss at the time (Garib Dass - who despite the name was very wealthy thanks to the funding Indira fed him) that in order for him to split Ravidassia Sikhs away from the Panth, a new place of worship in Uttar Pradesh was required, a new Hindu-friendly bani to split Ravidassia Sikhs away from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj had to be created and in order to create a separate identity a different Jaikara and Nishaan Sahib were required too. In short, the aim of Indira and Garib Dass was a wholesale transformation of erstwhile Sikhs into Hindu's so that instead of such Sikhs worshipping at their local Gurdwara's (which were predominantly saanjhay at the time) to get erstwhile Punjabi Sikhs to worship at a Mandir in UP so that the local Hindu shopkeepers in Varanasi could simultaneously profit (in return for their loyal support to Congress in 1980 and 1984). It's ironic that we Sikhs did nothing about that in terms of addressing discrimination seriously and aggressively, given that the Hindutva philosophy had always despised Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj and the whole reason leather work was even looked down upon as polluted was thanks to classical Hindu beliefs as espoused in Manu Smriti. Nevertheless, since 1980 countless parents with names of Singh and Kaur have named their children with the suffixes of Ram+Lal or Devi+Kumari instead as cultural markers to dissociate their connection with Sikhi. Mirch = Why they view him as Guru and no one else? UK = A lot of that is as a result of the anti-Sikh conspiracy outlined above but also because certain fake Sikhs did not treat others within the Panth as the true brothers they are. We can either correct this now and immediately so or it is a demographic inevitability that Sikhs will be below 50% of the Punjab population in the 2021 census. Doaba is now a minority Sikh region due to the success of Indira+DSB and the stupidity of caste-believing fake Sikhs. Mirch = The history of Bhagat Ravidass and Gurbani. And what our Gurus have said about him. UK = Bhagat Ravidas Ji Maharaj's Ji's shloks are within our present day Guru more than even Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's contribution. That says it all especially considering the fact that our 6th, 7th and 8th Masters words are not within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. UK = When Gurbani mentions "The slave Nanak craveth the happiness of being made the dust of the saints' feet" ... it is quite clear that Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj were two of the Highest of the High Saints being referred to (however, all Sikhs are also aware of our Guru's incredibile humility) UK = Either we as Sikhs eradicate all discrimination within the Panth (especially at matrimonial stages and separate GuruGhars) before this decade is out or let's be prepared to usher in 2021 with Sikhs a minority in Punjab and hated by folks whose ancestors were Sikh (like the famous example of Giani Ditt Singh of Singh Sabha) but who are increasingly being transformed into Hindu's by our enemies as a result of our failure to live up to what Vasakhi 1699 represented. If cultural practises are different at Ravidassia Gurdware let us still recognise our brothers and sisters as Sikhs and let's remember that the Guru's taught that those who face the most hardship in life are in fact those closer to God as evidenced in the Sakhi which showed who was the "higher" of Malik Bhago and Bhai Lalo Ji

Doaba Sahib, Sherdil Paji and luckysingh99 Ji as three really good contributors to this site I have to say that I feel you are needlessly debating with DalSingh Paji on this point. Let's forget about the cultural history of Bhangra. Let's look at the cancer it is promoting within our Qaum today in 2013. Caste is a cancer that we need to eradicate by any means necassary. Our Panj Pyaaray came from Gujarat, Orissa, south India ... you name it ... and yet caste is still a reality in 2013 in the community despite the vast majority of Jatts being Muslims and Hindu's and those Jatts being bitter enemies of the Sikh Panth as they proved in 1947+1984. Hence, would you not agree that the DJ in question should not only be congratulated but that we should look for increasing self-censorship within the Panth to eradicate mentions of caste, alcohol, nashay or disrespect for women? If these things have a negative impact on the Panth, then like the cancer they are, they need to be eliminated in popular entertainment as a pre-cursor to their occurence in matrimonial circles and also marital issues.

GPS Paji i believe what you have written is a misinterpretation of Dhunda Sahib's opinion. Obviously, you are entitled to believe what you have stated. Any my job isn't really to defend Dhunda Sahib's position on every little point. But I will attempt to respectfully give my take on what you written as your sincere younger brother within the Panth. No Sikh will deny aathma flat out. SSD may have denied other's interpretation of what the soul is. No Sikh will deny naam simran since doing seva gareeba vasthay is itself a form of Naam Simran Again if the purity of thought towards Akal Purakh and meaningful practical real life actions are not there to accompany Vaheguru as Gurmantar ... it is my understanding that this is what SSD is objecting to in the context of your point. Transmigration in the form Hindu scholars believe is most certainly not accepted. Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne. Karma means "actions in this life" in Sanskrit as opposed to the lies that Bipren tell that Sikhs had 1984 coming to us due to our sins from past lives. No Gursikh will ever deny Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. It is unfair to assume SSD will do that if we do not interpret myths which our used to illustrate moral precepts literally. For example Paji, the concept of Ganesh having respect for his parents like Sarwan Puth is crystal pure. If, however, we literally start believing in half-man half-elephant type miracles it makes a mockery of our Panth's shaheeds from multiple Ghallughara's who never benefitted from miracles and the tens of millions killed in Slavery, by the Muslim Empires, by Western Colonialism and the Cold War. Paji I do respect that you adhere to your position honestly with sincerity of faith in Sikhi but I humbly request that you see that others hold a different viewpoint to yourself whilst also still having 100% total faith in Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj (just like yourself)

@only5 >> Absolutely Paji will take it to PM but I do believe certain stories are there to be interpreted metaphorically. If we start believing certain things literally we go down a slippery slope that the Hindu's, Muslims and Christians are all trapped within ie stories of virgin births, half-animal half-human gods, horses that fly from Mecca to Jerusalem and from there to outer space. Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne. @Gupt Paji >> I'm no agent. If having faith solely in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj gets one labelled a naastik then so be it. Sikha nu saday Guru tho koyee nai thor sakdha paamah kush vi koyee kavay! If I respect u as a fellow member of the Panth for repping our Qaum in Calgary, why not think outside of the box Paji and consider that perhaps not all Sikhs who have a different viewpoint to yourself are necassarily naastiks or agents. As for Sant Ji's soch and purity of thought and prem for the Panth I have never ever questioned or denigrated that. I am entitled to question the political strategy and political brinkmanship employed by Sant Ji (even though admittedly it is easier to disagree with the benefit of hindsight) and stress that we should look to our Guru Sahiban as the ultimate role models and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as the ultimate guide rather than anybody born in the 20th century. Jonny = Oye Kalay Afghani Chelas! Sharam Karo! Only5 = I think Uklondonsikh got your point UK = LoL Paji - not believing Charitropakhiyan was ever written by Dasme Pathshah does not equate to being a Kala Afghani chela. We should be careful of false words being ascribed to the father of the Khalsa Panth. UK = Funny KGM Paji ... but how about answering some of the points I put to you in the thread? ------------------ In short, can anyone refute the points by Dhunda Sahib at the start of the thread or can both sides agree to disagree respectfully?

Moviebox are a Pakistani Muslim Jatt owned record label who control the largest percentage of the Bhangra artists and the Bhangra industry. No wonder they don't give a damn at our community destroying itself via the insidious promotion of caste, alcohol, nashay and lack of respect for women in the records that they market, distribute and hugely profit from. These Muslim Jatts drive Ferrari's by promoting poison to our community. Only that in this case they're not physically selling drugs as the Pakistani's are famous for ... they have artists (who claim to be Sikh) doing their dirty work for them

Totally humbled by your efforts Khalsa Ji and you WILL succeed (provided people like me who are doing less than yourself in direct terms actually support you in the methods that we are able via Dasvand)

Is it not possible for both sides of the spectrum - those that claim Charitropakhiyan was written by Dasme Patshah (out of their reverence for our 10th Master) and those that believe certain parts of today's DG like Charitropakhiyan could never have been authored by Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj - could in actual fact both have equal prem towards Sikhi and the Panth? http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/67202-dhunda-does-it-again-beadbi-of-sri-dasam-granth/

Agree with the OP overall. We certainly shouldn't celebrate it with parties etc however, it is undeniably a good thing if we see greater levels of Sangat attendance at our Gurdware on Dec 31st and Jan 1st

Related to this, we need to ask some questions of Davinder Bal of Sikh Channel. Sikh Channel have done a great job overall (though for the benefit of the Panth Sikh Channel & Sangat TV in the UK ought to merge so that the money saved can be used for the betterment of weaker sections of the Qaum in Punjab particularly) but the positive impact of Sikh Channel is undone by DS Bal's popular music channel. Honey Singh and most of the alcohol, drugs and caste-promoting artists are all pimps of a Muslim Jatt record label called Moviebox which we need to arrange boycotts against. DS Bal is the man with enough influence and control to steer a lot of these pathetic records away from gaining popularity - any Gursikh who has access to him should be able to explain the logic of that to him politely (if he takes no action - what was his objective in setting up Sikh Channel?)

I think our Qaum's theme for 2013 has got to be concentrating on what unites us. Eradicating drugs in Punjab, greater Sikhi parchar and gareeba di Seva by the Panth, equalising the male/female gender ratio, ensuring that Sikhs have no separate backgrounds and no separate Gurdware as one United indivisible Panth are some pretty easy aims that all of us can unitedly agree on