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what does this thread have in common with a bunch of schoolyard girls giggling and arguing over which latest hairstyle is the "in" thing to do..which one is lame.... what new outfits are hot this season, what colour mascara and whatnot...... THEY ARE ABOUT AS STUCK IN MAYA AS ARE ALL THE PEOPLE HERE WORRIED ABOUT WHICH STYLE OF DASTAAR TO WEAR.... one of the reasons guru sahib gave us our kes and dastaars was so that we would not be preoccupied with all of this maya...our kes and dastaar are ONLY important because it is from our guru....not to be made the topic of discussion regarding what style you wear... i always laugh when i see a singh or kaur take an hour to do thier dastaar and unwrap it and retie it several times before they get the look that they want....all this to go to sangat and do simran... and then the same people will turn around and get mad and point fingers to those girls that wear makeup... it's the same thing...the size, the colour, the style of your dastar or mine for that matter, will NOT take the ever growing ego that is haunting our souls....only submission to guru's hukam, seva, simran, sangat...will do that...

to the kid who took the pictures.... you're lucky it wasn't my granny or anyone's granny and that i wasn't there... if i was to see you taking any pictures towards the ladies side for no apparent reason...or any grannies who have to sit on chairs...i would have broken your camera on the spot.... before posting on this forum...you should talk to the elderly...firstly...they'll teach you a whole lot about sikhi....they aren't internet sikhs, but true sikhs who have gone through a lot more than you have in your little life...secondly...you'll also find out that many of them feel totally embarrassed to be sitting on chairs, they do this out of majboori...it's either that or they sit at home... i have a grandmother myself who is 89...she took amrit when she was 11 or 12....she wakes up at amritvela everyday even in her old age and taught me as well as my brothers and sisters paath, gurmukhi, guru kiaan sakhiyaan....now due to physical ailments, she has to sit on a chair or a bench at the gurdwara....you should ask her how she feels about that....the change they have to go through is degrading to them in the first place...they don't need little internet singhs making them feel worse....grow some nimrata...read gurbani....live the Guru's ideals... As for chairs for non sikhs....i'm totally against that...but that too should be done with love and explanation...i think it's our own fault actually....cuz...most goris when they go to weddings, it is norm in their culture to wear a dress or skirt...or other clothing that doesn't make it easy for them to sit down in the divaan...hence they'll want to sit on a chair or something... sikh couples who have friends that are coming to their wedding...should explain to them in advance how sikh weddings are done...and that their friends should come dressed such that it'll be easy for them to sit on the floor.

bauji's real name is Jaswant Singh ji, he used to be in the indian army as a clerk stationed in burma. It is there he was started to be called bauji by friends and whatnot... later on he retired and started doing samagams in the pind, Dodra (in the Mansa district of Punjab) and other various places. The sangataaan lovingly called him bauji. He was a gurmukh who preached the teachings of gurbani, concentrating on the aspects of Simran, Seva, and Sangat. He also wrote many articles under the inspiration of gurbani. He wrote 132 articles in punjabi on various topics such as Simran, Shabad, Bharam, Hukam, Rosay Gilay, Sangat...etc...as well as in English - Power of Thoughts, Transformation of the Egoistic Consciousness, Spiritual Oasis in the Desert of Maya, Universal religion...etc.. These writings are available free of charge at sadh sangat samagams in india, and north america and abroad. Also some are being put on the internet at www.dhangurunanak.com.

pyaray ji, take a look at the whole thread...and see how she's pounced on people such as projectnaad...who have provided their reasons which are based on their OWN experiences.... noone is denying HER version of what goes on at clubs...but that there's also another side to things...and that you CAN and many of us have a DIFFERENT experience when we're there... Her INABILITY to comprehend that there may be an experience outside of her narrow version of how things are is what is leading to arguments and a negative thread which could have potentially been a positive discussion...

i agree with Mehtab singh... the singhs need to stay out of this... our experience is totally different than our sisters' experiences... in most cases (and i know i'm generalising..that's why i'm saying most...there are exceptions) from my experience and most of the guys i know...their families have always supported them keeping the "look" of a singh...our only obstacle is the outside people...and living in canada...that isn't a major issue... but the girls have not only pressure from outside...but also within their families to look and be "lady like"... on one hand it's easy to say don't do this and don't do that....this isn't gurmat... but another interesting factor that we should take into consideration...if we talk to our grandmothers and ladies of their generation....you usually get the answer that there was never the issue of facial hair in their days...sure...body hair is a normal process and that's there...but ladies didn't have a facial hair problem... that begs the question...why now? ..what's changed?... not saying that it should be removed...but we collectively should actually look at things and try to figure out what's going on and how we can help be a part of the solution...

Sitargirl Just cuz you don't see eye to eye with heera singh or can understand his point, doesn't give you the right to say that he's just looking for a reason to argue with you...that is a childish statement to make. I don't know about the clubs you guys go to...but the ones i've been to, there's usually a section for the dancing and a section that's just a lounge...i've had very serious and long conversations just chilling in the lounge with my friends and classmates on a wide variety of topics...just cuz your experience was different...doesn't make it the be all end all...doesn't give you the right to negate someone else's experience.... in this discussion forum...we should all contribute our experiences and our personal views...and let readers decide for themselves...but it is not likening of a gursikh to bash someone else's views and BELITTLE people's experiences... also, not all clubs require someone to remove their kirpan...

Who the hell are we to call anyone's guru a False guru??? If someone has a guru...then so be it.... if it's not our guru...doesn't make their guru any less of a guru for THEM! None of us will ever be able to fully reach the potential of a guru ka sikh if we look at everything as our path is the best, our guru is the best,...everyone else is false... our path is OURS....their path is theirs....the presence of both don't make the other one worse... even within sikhi, we have people on various paths...when we all have our own maryadas, our own take on concepts of what bibek is, the role of mahapurkhs in sikhi, the basics of whether or not naaam simran means actually repeating waheguru....there is no unity on these issues...but i don't go telling a sikh missionary he's not sikh..or that i can't eat with him, just cuz i have a different take on my guru's path for me... we have to learn one thing.... IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the fact that naamdharis have other gurus is not INSULTING to any of our gurus...yes...i can say that they have NOT UNDERSTOOD what Guru nanak in his ten janams and now in the roop of gurbani was trying to teach humanity...but i cannot say they are directly or have any intention to insult guru sahib... yes....they believe that guru gobind singh ji didn't pass away when he did and that he lived on as ajmer singh or whatever the name was..and then he passed guru ship on to some other person....i think the whole theory is messed up...but you know what they believe it... if you talk to them...do you think they are trying to insult guru sahib in that belief?? talk to them and find out...i have talked to them...they base that belief on some historical evidence....and we have our historical evidence....and we believe what we believe... it's the same thing with people within our own panth there are jathas that think people who tie their daris aren't true singhs and that they're on a lower spiritual level...i think that theory is totally messed up...am i going to say they cannot call themselves a sikh??? am i going to stop eating with them? there are jathas that have rules like...we can't wear red or green...i totally disagree with that rule...do you see me going nuts on them??? just learn...it is what it is...move on....open your mind....live beyond labels...try not to classify everything in life cuz it cannot be done... and a note on bibek...i never disrespected singh132's explanation of dietary bibek...i do think its very misleading when we don't talk about DIETARY bibek...and just call it bibek...cuz according to gurmat...that's not what it is....according to some people it may include that..but in no way should we say that dietary bibek IS bibek.... i do respect those singhs who do keep dietary bibek...ONLY because i do believe it is a HARD discipline to keep in your life...and i would have respect for anyone that takes on a hard discipline and keeps to it...it shows strength of character and perseverence...that's all it shows to me...not to be used to judge spirituality...

i don't understand sitar girl in her original post she asks for understanding why someone does something...people have provided their reasoning...who are you to judge them or their reasons...just cuz you have not had the same experiences as them, doesn't mean that they aren't possible...learn to open your mind and realize that the world isnt always as YOU see it.... Discussins is one thing, coming here to preach and then making the generalizations you do, you only contribute negatively to the discussion. ANd for people that keep wanting to tell everyone what a GURSIKH should or SHOULD NOT do ..you have yet to show anything from the spirit of gurbani or that of gurmat ithaas... by the way....the sakhi about joga singh...you had the place wrong...he was going to a BROTHEL....a brothel is where prostitutes stay...there is only ONE reason to go to a brothel....think about that one....

japmans and singh132's point about naamdharis claiming to be sikhs is not a very good one. how so?...we have singhs who think eating meat is okay...they still claim to be sikhs... we have a whole jatha that believes in a different kakkar from the rest of the panth....they still claim to be sikhs... we have a jatha that has it in their maryada to not kill a cow....they still claim to be sikhs... point is....we have A LOT of differences among jathas in our own panth....we have people who say that if you don't have dasam granth parkash as well as sarbloh granth parkas at your amrit sanchar, then your amrit is not valid.... every jatha thinks its their way or "you're not following gurmat" soo many different concepts and interpretations...who made who the right one?????? and sarbloh said..that the naamdharis have affected the panth.... all i got to say is take a look around our houses, our gurughars....look at the mess our panth is in....none of that has anything to do with naamdharis....it's our OWN panth's leadership that is messed up...the SGPC is probably more anti panthic than any of these other organizations... people will say...oh at least everyone believes in guru sahib as guru. therefore we're more panthic than the naamdharis...i think that's a farce...NOBODY believes guru granth sahib is guru...RARE are those GEMS, MAHAPURKHS...who actually believe that....if people believed it...why would thay have parkash in their houses, and still fight....why would gurdwara committees not allow samagams to take place, why would they be soo concerned about booking as many marriages as possible...why would people FIGHT with each other in their Guru's presence??? why would akal takt not allow bibiaan to do kirtan at harmandir sahib??? MOST of the issues that face the sikh panth today is that we have given ourselves this false sense of piety just because we matha tek to guru ji...or we have nice rumallay for guru sahib...and we do parkash everyday...therefore...we must be shardalu sikhs of guru sahib.... but our daily actions, the daily actions of the masands that have taken over the gurdwaras and say who can sing guru sahibs bani and who cant, what about those jathebandis that make websites and TWIST guru sahib's pavitar bani to push their particular rehit maryada (ie...using "meh gur mil ooch dumalra" as a way of pushing keski).... we only exhibit such selfish, such bemukhi, behaviours if we don't actually have that respect for guru sahib in our hearts...all the outer showing of respect are useless when there is no inner respect...BOTH are NEEDED... lets look at ourselves, look at our jathebandis, look at our own panth before we go pointing fingers elsewhere...

while i can understand what Singh132 is saying (not necessarily agree) i do take issue with the targeting of one community over other people. You seem to think that every naamdhari believes that guru sahib is just a book and not as important as their "gurus". I used to think that also, but having spoken to several naamdharis i've learnt that it isn't exactly like that. I've learned that they do believe in guru sahib's importance, they simply have the belief that then need a human guru to explain to them what guru sahib is saying and show them how to live the life. I don't agree with that stance, but i can respect it as being someone else's belief. In fact, you cannot just simply say if someone regards guru sahib as a book, they are insulting us or guru sahib...that is simply their belief...they could have a lot of respect for guru sahib in their minds... I have a goan friend who is christian...for the past couple of years she's been reading passages from guru sahib and going through pages and she has a lot of respect for the teachings of our guru and sees how they can be implemented in her life...but to her it is not guru sahib...simply a book of teachings...now am i going to look at the fact that she is taking the guidance and implementing it in her life in the ways she can at this point in time..or am i going to get hung up on the fact that she doesn't accept guru granth sahib as her guru??? Your stance doesn't make sense in regards to the naamdhari having their belief. I also don't agree on lumping naamdharis and nirankaris in the same group. The nirankaris have a totally different belief system, not only that, their actions had a direct impact on the sikh panth ..ie. 1978. I am not aware of any similar experience of the sikh panth with the naamdharis. having different beliefs isn't such a bad thing. As long as they're respecting you, you can respect them...and the main thing about dietary bibek (this distinction is very important as we shouldn't mislead people into thinking that bibek is this very limited concept of who you eat food from) is the vibrations going into the food...that naamdhari owner of that restaurant may be a strict nitnemi...might be reading tonnes of gurbani in their daily life, while cooking the food...from what i know of devout naamdharis they follow a very strict rehit and do lots of paaht and simran... my point is ..if you're someone who feels that eating out isn't good for your soul journey..then don't do it...but it shouldn't be discriminatory based on someone's race, religion, or creed...

if someone could set up a site or way so that we can give donations via credit card or something...it would be much easier for us to donate and get money to the veerji and bhenji faster

hmmm... so now love is not an important thing....nice gursikhi you got there

having looked at the rehit maryada, i haven't seen it explicitly say anywhere that an amritdhari has to marry an amritdhari... it has a line about gursikhs should marry their daughters to gursikhs.... it also has a line that singhs should get their wives to take amrit... i think even these guidelines are subject to interpretation...and it wouldn't be correct to say that an amritdhari marryng a non amritdhari is going against rehit maryada... as for the point that someone made about not being able to share food or have physical relations...just wanted to say marriage is a lot more than just those to components...it is quite possible for two people to get married and not have any of that until both are amritdhari...again...i have yet to see the exact rehitnama to make a comment on the validity of the statement... also some of the rehits people like to quote are those that are propounded by a certain jatha or another jatha...in which case, that rehit is totally valid for you in your life but it cannot be used on others who follow a different rehit that is also under the panth... and Papi veerji, although most of us may be single...i have seen a number of marriages of people..where one partner may be amritdhari and the other not..and they have worked out just fine...even in some cases the other partner taking amrit already not too long after the wedding...so there is definitely a positive aspect to it...

i think these days we make amrit too light of a concept... to say that if someone is on the path, then taking amrit shouldn't be a problem...i think that isn't very accurate... the panj piyaray gave their heads for amrit...there were thousands of people that day...all those thousands of people were on the path, just not at the point where they had full faith in the guru to do whatever he said...the guru still loved them and considered them his sikhs and eventually they took amrit also.. we shouldn't assume that because taking amrit may have been natural for us in our lives that it would be for everyone that wants to become a gursikh...some people have many hurdles as a result of their past karams, their environment, and even battling their minds and battling all that society has put into our heads from birth. Marriage shouldn't come down to amritdhari or not...there should be mutual respect and understanding of each other's goals...and the spiritual goals should be similar...the partners should be committed to their own spiritual growth and that of helping each other also...if one is an amritdhari and follows rehit, then that's an area they could help the partner...if the other partner has a huge love of doing seva of sangataaan of humanity...that's an area they could help the other partner....never assume that we can't learn or be inspired by a partner who might not have taken amrit yet... ideally, both would be amritdhari...however we don't live in an ideal world...and simply have two amritdhari partners isn't a guaranteed recipe for a happy and healthy marriage.. in response to the post above mine....we don't have the power to make anyone an amritdhari...that is something that guru ji blesses a person with...only thing we can do is work on ourselves and live in His remembrance together and do ardas for His blessings...

here's the file... SantJarnailSingh.pdf

good post by singhavelli... personally, seen that in today's age, arranged marriages don't really work out...people simply don't have the same values that they once did...hence it's important for a guy and a girl to find out what their values are, if they are in common, and if they will be able to help each other on their respective paths...

so what if that guy didn't know the difference? if you knew, you could explain it to him with love. trying to make someone feel guilty about their life choices will never bring about lasting change in the person's life.. INSPIRING someone to want to make changes will create lasting change that may even inspire OTHERS through that inspired person... there are people on this site, some of whom have been YOM's who started out with having their kes...reading any of their interviews, they didn't keep their kes due to a feeling of guilt...but to a feeling of love and readiness to move forward in their spirituality....also, common for them is sangat of gursikhs that didn't judge them but rather accepted them and loved them and inspired them... there's no point to us having the YOM system...if we aren't going to read the interviews and learn things from the experiences....it's not simply there to make some people popular, but for the rest of us to learn lessons...

i disagree with "khalsa" girl... if you take amrit cuz you love 'somebody' then that's a gross misunderstanding of the institution of khanday battay da amrit... if people don't understand the basic principle and premise of taking amrit..they should refrain from giving themselves names that have the word khalsa in it. i also disagree with the extent of this "new life" argument that people use... yes...when you take amrit...you have a new life in the way you CONDUCT yourself... you conduct yourself in a way that shows the greatness of your father, dashmesh pita... i personally don't think it's cool for a guy to sleep with a girl, then find sikhi and dump her cuz he's not amritdhari...that girl will have a tough time when it comes to marriage and whatnot and i don't see how that can be seen as an honourable thing for a singh to do.

i am happy to read this article as it is a good attempt at righting the wrong propaganda written about sant ji... i have a 65 page essay that my cousin sent to me. in it the essay outlines all the problems that punjab was facing, it outlines what sant ji was doing at the time (which is basically, inspiring youth to return to khalsa), outlines how sant ji decided to get involved in the mission for the rights of punjabis, and how the media misconstrued it to be a sikh vs hindu issue.. also addresses the numerous accusations made against sant ji and then systematically tears up these accusations...a very good read... i'm not computer savvy...but if someone knows how to upload it to some site where people can conveniently download it..message me andi can email it to you.. maybe it's already on a site...i just got it emailed to me a couple of weeks ago. also worth noting...it is not ALL the indian government that screwed things up...yes they were hugely against sant ji as they couldn't stand by the ideals that sant ji lived up to.. but also what i think is even worse and more disappointing is the politics that SIKHS themselves played with sant ji... the Akalis didn't like his popularity, they also conspired against him...even the babbars had ideological differences with him... there is mention that there were several attempts to assasinate sant ji both by goi and fellow sikhs...

dude...you can't just go and have a relationship with someone, sleep with her, and then claim to have found sikhi and dump and use the fact that she's not amritdhari as an excuse!!! guru sahib will never be happy with such a justification and cowardness. I don't know anything about the girl or you..but if she's not the type to sleep around and she slept with you, that means she probably had deep feelings for you and vice versa. Just because you found sikhi doesn't mean you simply dump her. It means that now you must carry yourself in a dignified way. Meaning if you still have feelings and want to get married, then you should take the proper steps in that direction with dignity and honour. Talk to her...see what her goals are in life...maybe she too might find sikhi inspiring and want to make steps towards it. Not everyone is going to be amritdhari right away, some take longer than others. If she has totally diferent goals in life and doesn't want to be in your lifestyle, then that would be a mutual parting of ways. but if she's willing to make changes, then you need to be man enough to stick by and be that helping hand. If you think you can't marry a non amritdhari, then wait it out...give her time...not a time limit....and take her to sangat...introduce her to amritdhari girls her age she can have sangat with...she'll progress....

this whole topic is wrong... the mentality is wrong... even thinking that there are singhs and then money is wrong... guru gobind singh ji says that all of humanity is ONE....to see everyone as a brother and as everyone as a sister... one question...when you took amrit..and the panj piyaray give us the instructions to regard men and women our age as bros/sis...younger as daughter/son....older...mother/father....did the panj piyaray LIMIT that to JUST gursikhs???? NO!!! they say it as a blanket statement that applies to all of humanity... this is what separates the gursikh from the rest of the world...cuz as others my want to be loving and nice to their select group...the NISHANI of the gursikh is the one who loves all...who doesn't care to tell people they are not good enough or that they need to change this or that...he simply bathes in the love of his Guru ..and shares that with whomever he comes into contact with...it's that loving spiritual personality of the gursikh that inspires awe in others and may inspire change in them... however, if we keep looking at people and saying..oh he's a mona...oh she's a moni...whatever..then we begin to judge..and if we judge we don't love...and if we don't love...then we'll never feel god's presence in our life as guru sahib says ...saach kaho sun layho subhay jin prem kio tin hi prabh paaiyoo... now regarding the topic of sangat...the answer is simple... one older veerji once told me...if you ever have trouble deciding whether you should hang out with someone or engage in an activity....think about whether when you hang out with this person...will your thoughts be positive thoughts? will you be able to hang out with this person and then as soon as you're done be able to do simran without distractions? will it affect your thoughts...and if he answer is that the interaction wiht that person will uplift your thoughts then that is good sangat...if it lowers your thought, then that sangat is not good for you... but even in this case...you still don't judge that person...you simply recognize that the sangat of you two is not helping each other...and you stay away...and wish that person the best in life...cuz it's important to remember...hanging out with a certain person..and having our thoughts lowered..doesn't mean the other person is lower...it may mean that your thoughts are lower, but stronger...so that together you both get pulled down.....keeping this in mind....it should help you to refrain from judging people and keeping the ego in check...

you people complain about Vedanti being a puppet of Badal...which is true..however...you fail to realize that you were ALL DUPED by Badal.. all these sikhs rising up in arms over a stupid thing that the dera baba did...was all an emotional reaction... the dera baba was hundred percent wrong in what he did.. however, to compare it to the nirankaris back in 1978 is also wrong as the facts of the two situations aren't similar at all....the fact that nirankari baba was openly inciting people against guru granth sahib on the day of vaisakhi in amritsar is very different than some <banned word filter activated> dressing up like guru sahib... this should have been completely ignored i think...cuz all this did was to give this guy undeserved publicity... secondly...we wouldn't have these deras with their huge followings if the sikhs themselves did proper parchar of gurbani and LIVED the parchar they were doing...if akal takht spent more money on schools for children, more money on training effective parcharaks, if the people at akal takt were of the calibre of baba deep singh ji, bhai mani singh ji....the sikh population would be an inspired people..and not find solace with these babas...

he said what he said cuz he lacks deep understanding of guru maharaj... if two people aren't amritdhari, their anand karaj will still complete with the blessings of guru sahib if those two people yearn sincerely for guru sahib's blessings as well as make guru sahib the centre of their lives...some people judge this by saying oh...he took amrit..so the guru must be the centre of his life and therefore his anand karaj is complete with blessings.. however, there are moorakhs like me who may be amritdhari, but fail to make the guru the centre of our lives on a daily basis...instead further strengthening the place of our ego... the key is to do gurmat vichar on what the lavaan say....probably a good idea to do this with elder gursikhs...and understand that the lavaan is not only a comitment to each other, but a commitment as one soul to living in such a way that it merges back with the lord...for sikhs, part of living that life includes taking amrit...but when to take that particular step is different for everyone...

this was all a political scam from the beginning... punjabis and apparently sikhs in north america dont use their heads and just get sucked in... agreed that the DSS chief did a messed up thing...but others have done far worse... if there was a morcha..it shoulda been against badal if there was a morcha it shoulda been against RSS if there was a morcha it shoulda been against vedanti if there was a morcha itg shoulda been against baba maan singh... and various others.... i wonder when our community will stop letting others play with emotions and start using our heads... and then we turn around and blame all our problems on GOI...

the line from guru jis bani, jab lag khalsa rahay niyara tab lag tej dio meh sara... is a very deep line...and i object to it being made superficial to simply talk about keski size...in fact i doubt very highly that guru ji is talking about our dastaar size in this line at all if you like big dastars, that is fine...but to use guru ji's paviter bani out of context is not right... for if we looked at the next like...jab eh gahay bipran ki reet, meh na karo in ki parteet... guru ji's talking about the khalsa remaning distinct in it's living...remaining distinct in our thinking, our actions, our characters.... remainin distinct from bipran ki reet....we must ask ourselves what is bipran ki reet? and reflect on that.. is the singh who wears a huge dumalla, does gatka, has kirpan but still follow the caste system remaining niyara? niyaraaa that our guru talks about is a very high avastha...also i object to the notion that a niyara khalsa is to be shown apart from others from faar simply because of a big dastar...such comments show the immaturity of thought and reflection on guru ji's bani and gurmat... to my dear brothers and sisters....the khalsa who is niyara...that khalsa's spiritual glow and radiance, the distinct aura of that khalsa who lives and breathes waheguru waheguru in every rom of his body, that khalsa who serves humanity like bhai kanaiya ji for he only sees his guru and the children of ik akal purkh...that khalsa could be wearing the full khalsa bana, he could be wearing a nokh vali pug, she could be wearing a small keski, a huge dumalla, he/she could be wearing a patka that they use to work out in, or play basketball/soccer....that radiance of a true khalsa can never be hidden...always shining ever bright, always inspiring... jab lag khalsa rahay niyara tab lag tej dio meh saraaa jab eh gahay bipran ki reet, meh na karo in ki parteet. written again as a reminder to reflect...