Prem

Good question. My thought is that it might sometimes initiate divisions that cause prejudice or bigotry, but it is different from the stupid backward caste system because jathas are based on intellectual / theological disagreements, rather than an intrinsic system of hierarchy, in which no matter who you are as an indvidual, you are condemned to a stupid dividing of humanity simply because of what 'caste' you supposedly belong to. So put it this way. You can leave and join a jatha. But you cannot 'choose' to leave or join a caste, because the backwardness of Indian society and culture will always view you in the context of caste. On the other hand, both castes and jathas can dissolve into tribalism, and that is wrong. Especially when followers of one jatha believe they are superior to non-members of their jatha. It's at that point that the idiotic intolerance of caste can begin to affect their thinking. I am speaking about things like refusing to eat food not cooked by members of their jatha. This is a basic stupidity of the caste system, something that Sikhi was created to destroy, in which the langar is for everyone and represents the rejection of that kind of inhuman and racist logic. So caste and jatha are two different things. But jatha divisions can echo the stupidity of caste divisions sometimes.

You've really got to love 'panthic.org' one of the best comedy shows in town, every week they have a new set of people to accuse of being traitors, blasphemers, or whoever cut them up when they were driving into work that morning.

I think the question was more along the lines of 'would you leave your home in the diaspora to live permanently in Khalistan if it was to be created.

Effigy burning just takes the focus away from any of the points you make. Be more mature and intelligent.

I agree. The reality of drugs in Punjab today though is the proximity to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Cheap opium and other drugs, and people making easy money by spreading drugs and selling them in Punjab. Complete nonsense. The supply of drugs across the border of Pakistan, organised by criminal gangs from Punjab itself, growing fat off the misery and pain they cause with the money they make creating addicts. That is what is causing drug problems in Punjab. There's enough to take issue with the government of India without indulging in paranoid conspiracy theories like that.

Which other religious group has separate monitoring in the UK at the present moment?

What does this have to do with Sikhs?

This story makes me physically sick.

This has to be the most ridiculous post I've seen. It looks like people are starting a petition for everything these days. If your husband keeps failing the citizenship test, you want the government to change their rules, just because he can't revise and learn and pass the exam? Maybe someone should start a petition to tell your husband to spend more time studying so he can pass the exam in the first place.

They allow pupils to wear two types of jewellery --- ear studs and watches. It is difficult to understand how the kara, which is very small and slim, could be any more obtrusive than a watch. The girl has said she will not wear it in sports and other lessons where it may be a health risk. This is hardly going to lead to a mass outbreak of religion. You would think the school would show ome common sense and proportion on individual cases. Nevertheless, the gap remains --- kakkars are only mandatory for amritdhari Sikhs. There should be sensible compromise on both sides depending on the circumstances and context.

That's what I believe too. The kakkars are mandatory for an amritdhari Sikh. In practise, it is custom for many (probably the majority) of non amritdhari Sikhs to wear a kara, but it's not mandatory. How should we answer this point?

JagtarSinghKhalsa How should we answer when someone points out that wearing a kara is only mandatory for a amritdhari Sikh?

Gee thanks buddasingh, so I guess it's better to ignore all this stuff rather than bring it to the attention of everyone and flush out these demented simpletons who make fools of themselves in the name of Sikhi, fighting in Gurdwaras, almost killing people on the streets? Great logic, shoot the messenger!

sikh youth uk Stop trying to act like petty fascist vigilantes policing the lives of Sikh women, like some kind of Taliban squad. You sound like someone with deep links to the far right British nationalist movement.

Shamsher / Bahadur, Naipaul is as much a valid voice on Islam as yours on Sikhi. If you are allergic to his writings delve deeper. There is plenty about Muhammad and Shiasm away from the hagiography that Muslims peddle. Be a free thinker, be honest, investigate, apply the same theological rigour and interrogation as you do in other areas of your life and spirituality. You can start with Ibn Warraq, a former Muslim. The book by Kersh will give you the context for many things about Islam and Shiaism that are perplexing to outsiders; the truth of Islam being a vehicle for Arab supremacism and bigotry, the imperialistic nature of Islam, the sectarian violence at the root of shiasm, the Jewish-Pagan-Zoroastrian-Christian plaigarism at the heart of the religion, and most especially the cult like dogma of prescribing death to those who leave Islam, a distinguishing feature of the religion, which individuates it from all other faiths in the world.

Battle among Sikhs in Germany Another great representation of the Sikhs, and really helping the stereotypes of being violent and irrational people. Great way to integrate into a society. Check out the pictures repping Sikhs in Germany here Doesn't it make you feel proud!

Warrior You misunderstand the point I was making. In light of my earlier discussion I'm dissapointed. Sikhi has fanatics and the intolerant, but it does not have a mainstream decree that anyone who is not Sikh is inherently inferior or in need of salvation, nor does it have a mainstream theology of imperial reaching, nor does it have a mainstream theology that prescribes death to those who leave the religion. As you so rightly point out, Sikhi does not really have flaws, but it does have flawed practitioners.

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What's with the UNITED BRITISH ALLIANCE in your signature then? You fanatics are making Sikhs look like Muslim extremists with all your rhetoric and chauvinism and attempts to act like Sikh Taliban and moral vigilantes policing the lives of Sikh women.

Bahadur did make some points which are worth discussing, about how Sikhi has become infested with caste influences, in particular the way that 'Jattism' and 'Sikhism' somethimes becomes conflated by some Jatt chauvinists. But this s something that Sikhs recognise and try to combat at various levels. However, to fully interrogate his new religion, I think he should consider how Islam is essentially a desert cult that represents little more than a vehicle for an ugly kind of Arab imperialism and supremacism. He could begin this investigation by reading books like 'Beyond Belief' and Islamic Imperialism' and 'The origins of the Koran' Be truthful and honest Bahadur to your inner soul. Keep searching for the truth.

Mehtab Singh, if you know Bahadur, please invite him to contribute to this discussion. Sikhi, not being a prosletysing religion, has one big fault --- it does not know how to accept or deal with and welcome those who choose to come into the faith in a spiritual quest of their own. In that respect it's like Judaism, another faith that does not seek to convert. Someone born outside the religion who enters into it, will often feel neglected, because Sikhs don't have the tools to welcome them in the way that Christianity or Islam, two evangelical religions do. But this is also a strength of Sikhi --- it genuinely does consider and embody the belief that there are many rivers leading to one ocean. We don't have nutcases and maniacs, like the Muslims on Bahadur's thead, obsessed with converting others to their religion, a religion that quite incredibly, seeks to convert the entire world to their faith, but announces that anyone who leaves their religion should be put to death. Despite all the faults with Sikhi, the sectarianism, the narrow mindedness, the in-fighting, we do not in any way resemble this twisted form of dogma, and that is a thing of rare beauty, especially in the face of a creed that declares itself as the one true path not only to God, but of mankind. It's the consummation of intolerant. Bahadur, I hope you find what you're looking for. If you start to interrogate the reality of the prophet Muhammad or the shia master Ali, away from Islamic hagiography (and the historical truth and reality of Muhammad is very different from the hagiography that Muslims peddle), you'll discover some disturbing truths about Islam, and should you ever find that your path takes you to another river, you'll have to deal with a bizarre religious dogma that declares you deserve to die for betraying it, yet asserts itself as the apogee of human enlightenment! Good luck.

sikh youth uk I think you are a trouble making thug, who ironically in his hatreds and bigotry closely resembles the very fundamentalist Muslims you spend so much time obsessing about. Explain your support for the racist right-wing fascist BNP too.

If he reads this, Bahadur I'm sorry you had problems in your personal life. I understand you are like a butterfly on a spiritual quest. I really hope you find peace. I also hope you apply the same rigorous theological deconstructionist approach to Islam that you did to Sikhi. At the very least debates like the one you initiated keeps Sikhs sharp and on their toes to repudiate hostile interrogation and so you do a service to Sikhs so that they don't become intellectually lazy. But I cannot see as conducive an atmosphere in the House of Islam to that kind of approach, especially regarding the incredible sectarian, political and cult like aspect of Shia Islam. And remember, apostasy is proscribed in Islam and declared to be punishable by death. Which is just something I can never get my head around, how a man as sensitive and attuned to love and forgiveness as you could subscribe to such a cruel and unforgiving dogma.

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