BhForce

Not to offend anyone, i wanna make clear that not everybody is angel in this world. Out of millions of dollars he or other babaaaay gets in chanda every month.. what exactly their organization/dera/group are doing? I want to see a physical standing proof (such as school, hospitals etc). If school is made then is it reliable enough to compete with other private schools? If Hospital is made, will it be able to stand to treat hundreds or thousands of patients in a month. Will it have a credible staff? These are the questions that one need to raise not questions about their clothes and stuff.. I think it is a reasonable request to ask for accounting of funds and expenditures from sants. Just as Guru Gobind Singh Ji was accountable to the Sangat (even if it was to humour us), sants also are accountable. Instead of being angry, pose it as a reasonable request to S Dhadrianwale. But in order to do that, you have to see him as a real person with good motives, and not as a greedy baba. I know that he is sensitive to sangat's criticism, that's why he stopped doing dharnas for one tour (but went back when sangat said they wanted it). As for the level of the schools being made by sants, the Buddha Dal Public School in Patiala actually own a NASA space competition and went to the US. http://www.google.com/search?q=Budha+Dal+School+NASA The Akal Academy, associated with S Mastuanawale, have opened up numerous schools all over Punjab which educate children in Sikhi plus English education. http://www.google.com/search?q=Akal+Academy The Khalsa schools opened by Bhai Jeevan Singh seem to be well-received by the sangat. Even if such schools and hospitals aren't Harvard and Oxford-level, for some areas, they are the only ones in the area. Certainly better than nothing. And other examples, I suppose.

The song's lyrics are fine. The video linked to in the first post has added pictures to the song. Adding a picture of S Dhadrianwale in relation to fake babas seems totally non-topical. Does anyone have a link to the original video? By the way, would the Tata Nano ($2500 car) be acceptable for transport? http://www.google.com/search?q=tata+nano As people probably already know, S Dhadrianwale doesn't buy cars from out of the 1 rupee notes people donate. Rather, people donate cars already bought and paid for. I would agree that taking poor people's money and then buying luxury cars would seem inappropriate.

Admin, please do NOT close the topic. In general, there's usually no reason to end most topics. Closing a topic does nothing to refute the arguments that people have accepted in their minds. Until they post those arguments, and others can read and respond to them, there's no possibility of changing anyone's mind. If the only opinions that anyone can post are already pre-determined, there's no point to forum, right? I didn't post my questions (regarding a list of S. Dhadrianwale's cars) in jest. I'm actually still waiting for a list of cars. Also, if any of those cars are not suitable, I'd like to know which cars are OK. Here's a starting point: http://www.google.com/search?q=cars+india

harmandeal, 1. do you have a full list of Dhadrianwale's cars? If so, we can discuss further. 2. I don't quite understand what you mean by saying he's not a preacher. What in your mind is a preacher supposed to do or say? Some boring professor, maybe?

Uggradanti, Chaka 5, Line 13. This a bani which isn't in all copies of Dasam Granth, but is available here and there (from some Nihang gutka sahibs).

Hoshiarpura, it's hard to see why you're so angry at babas. Go to a normal smagam by a baba, and you'll see plenty of normal, "pendu" people, some poor, and even some Biharis. These are exactly the kind of people targeted by Christians. So can't we just let babas preach to this section of society, or is parchar just for the (relatively) well-off living in Delhi, Bombay, Vancouver, and Toronto?

Unfortunately, in this uncaring world, mass boycotts hardly ever work. If you have some kind of personal link with the man, you could let him have piece of your mind, though. It seems that people who have a Sikh background, but who live in a non-Sikh milieu, often have a need to prove their anti-Sikh credentials in order to gain acceptance in their circles. Although no one could ask a non-Sikh to risk his life to save Sikhs, you could at least not egg on the killers.

Thank you for posting these. Bhai Gurdas ji had the fortune of having sangat of 4 Gurus and is one of the most pious Gursikhs of all time. These verses plainly demonstrate that Sikhs have been celebrating the births (into this world) of their Gurus for a very long time, Guru Nanak Ji is in fact Guru, and that they gave a mantra to their Sikhs. These are some of the most popular compositions to sing at this time of year throughout the Sikh panth.

Sorry, but I have to ask, if you were looking for God in true form, why did you go to a bookseller? Did you think you can buy God?

1. Contrary to what ekonam says, the Sikh ardas has been created by the saints (i.e., GurSikhs), not by a manmukh munn. Gurbani says that what the saints (bhagats) say is parvan (accepted) in dargah (God's court). The elder saints of this community of saints (nirmal panth) have standardised a prayer for Sikhs. So, yes, the Sikh ardas is parvan as far as God is concerned. maeree baa(n)dhhee bhagath shhaddaavai baa(n)dhhai bhagath n shhoottai mohi || The devotee can release anyone from my bondage, but I cannot release anyone from his. p1252 2. Gurbani also says the stories of our elders make us into good sons: Baabaaneeaa kehaaneeaa puth saputh karaen || The stories of one's ancestors make the children good children. p951 The remembrance of our martyred elders is in exact accordance with Gurbani. 3. Gurbani says to praise the Gurus: so sathagur kehahu sabh dhha(n)n dhha(n)n jin har bhagath bha(n)ddaar lehaaeiaa ||3|| Let everyone hail and praise the True Guru, who has led us to find the treasure of the Lord's devotional worship. ||3|| p586 So we do with the first stanza of the Ardas. 4. As for the tuk ekonam mentions, there's nothing in it against the way Sikhi is practiced by every Sikh on the planet: man thae dhhokhaa thaa lehai jaa sifath karee aradhaas ||4||1|| My mind is cleansed of doubt, only when I praise You, and pray to You. ||4||1|| p557 jeeo pi(n)dd sabh this kaa sifath karae aradhaas || Body, soul and all things belong to the Lord-praise Him, and offer your prayers to Him. p86 Sifath(i) kare ardas can mean 1) praise the Him, and then do ardas, or 2) pray to him with praise. In any case, this can apply to both Gurmantar and normal ardas. 5. Although jap of the Gurmantar is also an ardas (a prayer with every breath), don't believe ekonam when he says the Sikh ardas is anti-Gurmat. jeea kee birathhaa hoe s gur pehi aradhaas kar || When your soul is feeling sad, offer your prayers to the Guru. p 519 6. Finally, the way we do ardas (standing up with hands folded) is enjoined in Gurbani): jis naal jor n chalee khalae keechai aradhaas || Stand and offer your prayer, to the One who cannot be moved by force. p994 thisai agai naanakaa khalie keechai aradhaas ||1|| So stand before Him, O Nanak, and offer your prayers. ||1|| p 1093 dhue kar jor karo aradhaas || With my palms pressed together, I offer this prayer. p1152 This is what we have been taught to do by our Gurus, have been doing, and will keep doing until the end of this Earth.

Balbir Singh, You've already received some very good replies above. Nevertheless: You use the word "patent", but it doesn't apply in this situation. A patent is an part of English law; it means granting of a monopoly on the use of an invention by its inventor for a period of time. Patents do not apply to books, rather, copyrights do. In any case, our Guru isn't a book, which is why the Akal Takhat banned booksellers from this trade. In addition, the ban was not based on the western legal concept of patents or copyrights, but rather on the Sikh concepts of community order (gurmatta and hukumnamma, Guruship, and Panj Piare). To answer your question of whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib is by Sikhs for Sikhs, the answer is yes. The reason is our Guru isn't a book that anyone can buy and sell, and keep however he wants to whereever he wants to. Sri Guru Granth Sahib is only to be taken to places where respect is maintained. On the other hand, if someone wants to study Gurbani, he can do so from commentaries (teekas) or sanchian (volumes containing some part, usually half, of Gurbani).

Although I understand the rationale which was given for the (current) Nanakshahi calendar, it's quite farfetched to say that the Bikrami calendar is "against Gurbani". The Bikrami calendar was used by all the 10 Gurus. And dates within the first recension (and subsequent ones) by Bhai Gurdas Ji approved by Guru Arjan Dev ji are in Bikrami. Again, it's the panth's decision to go with one calendar or another. But let's not call Bikrami "against Gurbani". It's like plastic vs. aluminum. Both have good and bad points, but neither is "against Gurbani".

It's true that there are many research findings of physics that point toward there being an Ultimate Cause (which believers call God). I disagree, however, that God is restricted by an absolute reference frame. I think that God is free of any bounds, and create any laws for any given universe that he happens to be creating.

It's unfortunate that you chose to use legal language in your post regarding Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is a firm in Amritsar called Chattar Singh Jivan Singh which has minted a fortune by selling our Guru. They treat our Guru as a stock keeping unit (SKU) in their store. They mix in excess printed pages with Gurbani on them with garbage, as well as other beadbi. Search for past threads. The Akal Takhat took notice of their misdeeds and decided that the SGPC will print recensions of Guru Granth Sahib. They were recently sent to jail for putting heroin into an export shipment of religious books. The SGPC's press is actually a Gurdwara, Ramsar Sahib, where Gurbani was originally written. A standard of respect is maintained there. By walking just a few metres, you could have obtained what you needed from the SGPC. If you care about God's opinion, He says: Dhhrig thinaa kaa jeeviaa ji likh likh vaechehi naao Cursed are the lives of those who write the Lord's Name to sell it. p. 1245 On the other hand, Gurbani encourages writing bani for spiritual development. If anyone wants to do this as a labour of love, they are free to do so.

Mahapurkhs need to be accountable to the Khalsa panth, just as Guru Gobind Singh Ji was. Checks and balances are a basic part of a democratic setup. While the Khalsa panth isn't quite set up on a Western democratic basis, conforming (i.e., rehitvan) members of the Khalsa commonwealth have the right to question their leaders, just as Guru Dasmesh ji taught it to do so. (I would even say leaders need to answer the legitimate grievances of non-conforming members.) Refusal to answer and changing the subject are hallmarks of a Western-style total monarchy, not of the Khalsa panth. Bhai Sahib needs to answer just like the Prime Minister of England answers questions put to him. (Just to clarify: I don't think Guru Gobind Singh ji ever did anything wrong. Rather Guru Sahib provided an example for us so that our future leaders would not be unaccountable -- in the same way that Guru Sahib provided an example by taking amrit.)

In this thread we are talking about Bhai Gurdas Singh, who, as mentioned above, was a darbari rattan of the holy and royal court of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Here's a real quick translation of Pauri 15 of this //. This isn't Gurbani, but it is accepted as expressive of the Sikh ethos. This is a representative sample of Bhai Gurdas Singh's work: The Guru, Gobind (Singh), manifested as the 10th incarnation. Who recited the praise of the ineffable, unreachable, Creator He created his own religious order, the Khalsa, and placed a sharp lustre. Keeping hair on their heads, and holding a sword, they swept away all evildoers. Donning a Kachh(era) of chastity, they hold weapons. Saying the true Fateh of the Guru, they won heavy battles. Cornering all the demons, they struck them. Then the unreachable praise of the Guru was easily manifested in the world. In this way, the Singhs and Bhujangees sprung up and wore blue dress. No one could stand before them, big chieftains fled. Where there were kings and the wealthy, they all became ashes. Then hearing such thumping, the heavy trembled and fell. Then there was a movement in the land, and they fled their abodes. In such a torment the world was consumed. Without the Satguru, there is no one to destroy fear. Let us grab such a sword that no one may be able to bear it. Great is Gobind Singh, Himself the Guru and follower. 15.

Well, you can get Internet on your phone, of course. If your phone works (i.e., it can reach the cell tower) then Internet will work, too. Not only that, but if you're in an airport, or a public building (like a Starbucks or bookstore) they usually offer free wi-fi these days. That's like wireless internet. There are a lot of wi-fi phones today. Have a look at http://nokia.com . The Nokia 5800 XPress Music is a touchscreen phone with wifi, and many more features than the iPhone for $279. If you don't go for the unlimited Skype plan, you pay a low rate per minute according to destination. http://www.skype.com/prices/callrates/ The lowest is for calling the US, 2.5 cents per minute. A ten minute call is only a quarter. If you use the per-minute or unlimited plans, the receiving party doesn't need Skype, just a normal phone. Links http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-5800-xpressmusic http://www.tube5800.com/20-reasons-why-nokia-5800-is-better-than-apple-iphone/

Thank so much dear Gursikh brother for sharing this wonderful piece of Sikh historical literature. I love you! Bhai Gurdas Singh was a darbari rattan (a jewel of the court) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He enjoins nam simran whilst praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Singhs, who stopped the malpractices of the Kazis and Brahmins that had been exploiting the masses, with a fury. Other aspects of this work: -Indirectly mentions the Akal Takhat -Mentions amrit vela -Enjoins nam simran repeatedly: Then the (true) dharma easily became manifest -- singing the praises of God with the holy name. (17) -Mentions blue dress of the Khalsa -Mentions weapons of the Khalsa -Mentions the Fateh, and how by saying it, the Singhs won huge battles -Mentions Khande bate da pahul -Portrays the Guru as eternal -Praises God and encourages loving devotion to Him -Repeatedly praises 10th Guru for being humble enough to take pahul from Panj Piarey -Mentions kes, kachera, and weapons -Mentions the establishment of the Khalsa Panth -He calls the Khalsa Panth the 3rd religion (after Hindu and Mussalman panths), and the highest (Pardhan), at that. This echos a similar line in some versions of Dasam Bani: Duhu panth meh kapat bidia chalani. Bahur tisar panth kino pardhani. -He talks about sunn smadh avastha -He talks about jamdoots and dharam raj. These are probably all the reasons why missionaries don't like it. It's viewed in the Sikh community with respect, and the "Pivo pahul khandhar hove janam suhela" pauri is sung with great love on Basakhi celebrations. (Without taking anything away from your seva, it seems to me that there are either some misspellings in the attached PDF, or in the spellings which are seen in other versions of Bhai Sahib's verses.)

It's unlikely the ultimate question of meat vs. no meat will be resolved anytime soon. I'd like to encourage those Sikhs who believe the 4th kurehit (kutha) to be prohibition of Muslim meat only, and not meat in general to stay away from store-bought meat. If your rehit is loose enough to eat store-bought meat, you should basically consider yourself already patit.

Please don't close this thread. In general, I disagree with the closing of a thread just when things get warmed up. I'll post some stuff tomorrow. Far from saying that Ekonam is posting extraneous material not related to the topic, I welcome knowing about the full agenda of SDO's and others who think they know better than Satguru.

How about using Skype? http://skype.com It's a program that runs on your computer. Most people have it (like most people use Google, and YouTube, and Yahoo). You can call people who have Skype for free. Or you can call normal phone numbers unlimited for ten dollars a month or so.

1. The basic question is, are we going to follow the Guru, or are we just going to what we want? In the Peer/Mureed or Guru/Sikh tradition, the peer tells the mureed what to do, and the mureed just does it, without questioning, like Bhai Lehana (Guru Angad Dev Ji). 2. The shocking comments by ekonam promoting the SDO cult who like to do nindia of one of the greatest Sikhs of all time, Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji, show the true mentality from which those going against established maryada are coming from. It's a mentality of haumai (ego) thinking that a modern day college graduate who took an anthropology course or some such knows better than our Gurus, great Gursikhs, and 500 years of Sikh community. News flash for those who are flirting with changing the GurMaryada of the Amrit Ceremony: The SDO's and others who are in favour of this have a whole list of other stuff they want to change in Sikhi. 2. To think that the female Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Dasmesh Ji were weak is to think of yourself as being better than all of them, including Mai Bhago. Mata Bhag Kaur didn't participate in a single Amrit Smagam, but there are loads of Singhs who did. 3. As for the SGPC maryada, that's OK to quote if you're of the missionary persuasion, but please don't hide behind that if you're of the "blue chola" persuasion that normally talks of following the "true rehit" above and beyond SGPC maryada. 4. Everyone realises Gurbani talks of soul-brides. Funny thing is, the authors of these shabads (9 Gurus), always chose a male to represent the Guruship. So did the 10th Guru. Or God: Khalsa Pargatio Parmatam Ki Mauj. 5. It's quite funny how some of our brothers and sisters think that talking about the soul being a female and God being a purukh (male) means the Panj should be any gender. If anything, it means the Panj should be male! Of course, this doesn't mean men are more spiritually advanced than women, but it does have symbolic meaning, which was chosen by (take your pick) Guru and God. So how about we just let Guru be Guru, and we can all be followers? 6. Props to those who have pointed out that the Gurus addressed every other social malady, but didn't promote radical gender equality. I think it's fair to say that our Gurus believe in reasonable and fair social setup, not in radical sex equality. Lahanat to anyone who says Gurus didn't have the nerve to promote this because they were followers and not leaders of society. 7. Only five has brilliantly pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh ji believed in castelessness, but *not* sexlessness. Caste (hereditary occupation) is associated with what one does (or used to do); it can be changed or ignored, as gurmat advises. Sex can't be changed. In fact, Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually strengthened sex boundaries. Before, people just had one-word names. Afterwards, they were divided into two categories: Singh and Kaur. The whole idea of radical sex equality is a product of a degraded Western culture that likes to "let it all hang out". Open sexual acts (such as kissing by couples), physical closeness of people not married to one another, etc. are not a part of the Gursikh culture. Pity our poor, un-degreed Guru Sahiban were unable to grasp the finer points of "Gurmat" until 21st century Sikhs came around. 8. Brown people, stop thinking you are inferior and that you need to ape the West in order to please it. The Gursikh culture is superior to modern Western culture. 30 percent of westerners are, apparently, [url http://relationships.blog-city.com/how_common_is_female_infidelity.htm]bastards[/url]. 9. Please stop twisting Gurmat just because you are afraid of your friends of a European background. You can give them the perfectly reasonable answer that, because souls are symbolically viewed as female, the symbolic representation of God is male.

The limitations of a particular artist's brush should be recognised. As far as first-person accounts of Guru Sahib in war, Mohsin Fani was a Persian writer and traveller who spent a lot of time with Guru Hargobind Ji. He writes that the Guru was always smiling, even in wartime. Bhai Gurdas Ji (contemporary of 6th Guru Ji) also writes: Hargobind Sad Vigsanda. (Hargobind is always smiling.)

It's quite unfortunate that some of our brothers have fallen into the misconception that opposition to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani is the summit of Gurkmukhtai. I'd like to see this on Youtube. Also, where is JUS TV based?