BhForce

It's true that there are many research findings of physics that point toward there being an Ultimate Cause (which believers call God). I disagree, however, that God is restricted by an absolute reference frame. I think that God is free of any bounds, and create any laws for any given universe that he happens to be creating.

It's unfortunate that you chose to use legal language in your post regarding Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There is a firm in Amritsar called Chattar Singh Jivan Singh which has minted a fortune by selling our Guru. They treat our Guru as a stock keeping unit (SKU) in their store. They mix in excess printed pages with Gurbani on them with garbage, as well as other beadbi. Search for past threads. The Akal Takhat took notice of their misdeeds and decided that the SGPC will print recensions of Guru Granth Sahib. They were recently sent to jail for putting heroin into an export shipment of religious books. The SGPC's press is actually a Gurdwara, Ramsar Sahib, where Gurbani was originally written. A standard of respect is maintained there. By walking just a few metres, you could have obtained what you needed from the SGPC. If you care about God's opinion, He says: Dhhrig thinaa kaa jeeviaa ji likh likh vaechehi naao Cursed are the lives of those who write the Lord's Name to sell it. p. 1245 On the other hand, Gurbani encourages writing bani for spiritual development. If anyone wants to do this as a labour of love, they are free to do so.

Mahapurkhs need to be accountable to the Khalsa panth, just as Guru Gobind Singh Ji was. Checks and balances are a basic part of a democratic setup. While the Khalsa panth isn't quite set up on a Western democratic basis, conforming (i.e., rehitvan) members of the Khalsa commonwealth have the right to question their leaders, just as Guru Dasmesh ji taught it to do so. (I would even say leaders need to answer the legitimate grievances of non-conforming members.) Refusal to answer and changing the subject are hallmarks of a Western-style total monarchy, not of the Khalsa panth. Bhai Sahib needs to answer just like the Prime Minister of England answers questions put to him. (Just to clarify: I don't think Guru Gobind Singh ji ever did anything wrong. Rather Guru Sahib provided an example for us so that our future leaders would not be unaccountable -- in the same way that Guru Sahib provided an example by taking amrit.)

In this thread we are talking about Bhai Gurdas Singh, who, as mentioned above, was a darbari rattan of the holy and royal court of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Here's a real quick translation of Pauri 15 of this //. This isn't Gurbani, but it is accepted as expressive of the Sikh ethos. This is a representative sample of Bhai Gurdas Singh's work: The Guru, Gobind (Singh), manifested as the 10th incarnation. Who recited the praise of the ineffable, unreachable, Creator He created his own religious order, the Khalsa, and placed a sharp lustre. Keeping hair on their heads, and holding a sword, they swept away all evildoers. Donning a Kachh(era) of chastity, they hold weapons. Saying the true Fateh of the Guru, they won heavy battles. Cornering all the demons, they struck them. Then the unreachable praise of the Guru was easily manifested in the world. In this way, the Singhs and Bhujangees sprung up and wore blue dress. No one could stand before them, big chieftains fled. Where there were kings and the wealthy, they all became ashes. Then hearing such thumping, the heavy trembled and fell. Then there was a movement in the land, and they fled their abodes. In such a torment the world was consumed. Without the Satguru, there is no one to destroy fear. Let us grab such a sword that no one may be able to bear it. Great is Gobind Singh, Himself the Guru and follower. 15.

Well, you can get Internet on your phone, of course. If your phone works (i.e., it can reach the cell tower) then Internet will work, too. Not only that, but if you're in an airport, or a public building (like a Starbucks or bookstore) they usually offer free wi-fi these days. That's like wireless internet. There are a lot of wi-fi phones today. Have a look at http://nokia.com . The Nokia 5800 XPress Music is a touchscreen phone with wifi, and many more features than the iPhone for $279. If you don't go for the unlimited Skype plan, you pay a low rate per minute according to destination. http://www.skype.com/prices/callrates/ The lowest is for calling the US, 2.5 cents per minute. A ten minute call is only a quarter. If you use the per-minute or unlimited plans, the receiving party doesn't need Skype, just a normal phone. Links http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-5800-xpressmusic http://www.tube5800.com/20-reasons-why-nokia-5800-is-better-than-apple-iphone/

Thank so much dear Gursikh brother for sharing this wonderful piece of Sikh historical literature. I love you! Bhai Gurdas Singh was a darbari rattan (a jewel of the court) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. He enjoins nam simran whilst praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji and the Singhs, who stopped the malpractices of the Kazis and Brahmins that had been exploiting the masses, with a fury. Other aspects of this work: -Indirectly mentions the Akal Takhat -Mentions amrit vela -Enjoins nam simran repeatedly: Then the (true) dharma easily became manifest -- singing the praises of God with the holy name. (17) -Mentions blue dress of the Khalsa -Mentions weapons of the Khalsa -Mentions the Fateh, and how by saying it, the Singhs won huge battles -Mentions Khande bate da pahul -Portrays the Guru as eternal -Praises God and encourages loving devotion to Him -Repeatedly praises 10th Guru for being humble enough to take pahul from Panj Piarey -Mentions kes, kachera, and weapons -Mentions the establishment of the Khalsa Panth -He calls the Khalsa Panth the 3rd religion (after Hindu and Mussalman panths), and the highest (Pardhan), at that. This echos a similar line in some versions of Dasam Bani: Duhu panth meh kapat bidia chalani. Bahur tisar panth kino pardhani. -He talks about sunn smadh avastha -He talks about jamdoots and dharam raj. These are probably all the reasons why missionaries don't like it. It's viewed in the Sikh community with respect, and the "Pivo pahul khandhar hove janam suhela" pauri is sung with great love on Basakhi celebrations. (Without taking anything away from your seva, it seems to me that there are either some misspellings in the attached PDF, or in the spellings which are seen in other versions of Bhai Sahib's verses.)

It's unlikely the ultimate question of meat vs. no meat will be resolved anytime soon. I'd like to encourage those Sikhs who believe the 4th kurehit (kutha) to be prohibition of Muslim meat only, and not meat in general to stay away from store-bought meat. If your rehit is loose enough to eat store-bought meat, you should basically consider yourself already patit.

Please don't close this thread. In general, I disagree with the closing of a thread just when things get warmed up. I'll post some stuff tomorrow. Far from saying that Ekonam is posting extraneous material not related to the topic, I welcome knowing about the full agenda of SDO's and others who think they know better than Satguru.

How about using Skype? http://skype.com It's a program that runs on your computer. Most people have it (like most people use Google, and YouTube, and Yahoo). You can call people who have Skype for free. Or you can call normal phone numbers unlimited for ten dollars a month or so.

1. The basic question is, are we going to follow the Guru, or are we just going to what we want? In the Peer/Mureed or Guru/Sikh tradition, the peer tells the mureed what to do, and the mureed just does it, without questioning, like Bhai Lehana (Guru Angad Dev Ji). 2. The shocking comments by ekonam promoting the SDO cult who like to do nindia of one of the greatest Sikhs of all time, Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji, show the true mentality from which those going against established maryada are coming from. It's a mentality of haumai (ego) thinking that a modern day college graduate who took an anthropology course or some such knows better than our Gurus, great Gursikhs, and 500 years of Sikh community. News flash for those who are flirting with changing the GurMaryada of the Amrit Ceremony: The SDO's and others who are in favour of this have a whole list of other stuff they want to change in Sikhi. 2. To think that the female Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev ji to Dasmesh Ji were weak is to think of yourself as being better than all of them, including Mai Bhago. Mata Bhag Kaur didn't participate in a single Amrit Smagam, but there are loads of Singhs who did. 3. As for the SGPC maryada, that's OK to quote if you're of the missionary persuasion, but please don't hide behind that if you're of the "blue chola" persuasion that normally talks of following the "true rehit" above and beyond SGPC maryada. 4. Everyone realises Gurbani talks of soul-brides. Funny thing is, the authors of these shabads (9 Gurus), always chose a male to represent the Guruship. So did the 10th Guru. Or God: Khalsa Pargatio Parmatam Ki Mauj. 5. It's quite funny how some of our brothers and sisters think that talking about the soul being a female and God being a purukh (male) means the Panj should be any gender. If anything, it means the Panj should be male! Of course, this doesn't mean men are more spiritually advanced than women, but it does have symbolic meaning, which was chosen by (take your pick) Guru and God. So how about we just let Guru be Guru, and we can all be followers? 6. Props to those who have pointed out that the Gurus addressed every other social malady, but didn't promote radical gender equality. I think it's fair to say that our Gurus believe in reasonable and fair social setup, not in radical sex equality. Lahanat to anyone who says Gurus didn't have the nerve to promote this because they were followers and not leaders of society. 7. Only five has brilliantly pointed out that Guru Gobind Singh ji believed in castelessness, but *not* sexlessness. Caste (hereditary occupation) is associated with what one does (or used to do); it can be changed or ignored, as gurmat advises. Sex can't be changed. In fact, Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually strengthened sex boundaries. Before, people just had one-word names. Afterwards, they were divided into two categories: Singh and Kaur. The whole idea of radical sex equality is a product of a degraded Western culture that likes to "let it all hang out". Open sexual acts (such as kissing by couples), physical closeness of people not married to one another, etc. are not a part of the Gursikh culture. Pity our poor, un-degreed Guru Sahiban were unable to grasp the finer points of "Gurmat" until 21st century Sikhs came around. 8. Brown people, stop thinking you are inferior and that you need to ape the West in order to please it. The Gursikh culture is superior to modern Western culture. 30 percent of westerners are, apparently, [url http://relationships.blog-city.com/how_common_is_female_infidelity.htm]bastards[/url]. 9. Please stop twisting Gurmat just because you are afraid of your friends of a European background. You can give them the perfectly reasonable answer that, because souls are symbolically viewed as female, the symbolic representation of God is male.

The limitations of a particular artist's brush should be recognised. As far as first-person accounts of Guru Sahib in war, Mohsin Fani was a Persian writer and traveller who spent a lot of time with Guru Hargobind Ji. He writes that the Guru was always smiling, even in wartime. Bhai Gurdas Ji (contemporary of 6th Guru Ji) also writes: Hargobind Sad Vigsanda. (Hargobind is always smiling.)

It's quite unfortunate that some of our brothers have fallen into the misconception that opposition to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani is the summit of Gurkmukhtai. I'd like to see this on Youtube. Also, where is JUS TV based?

I believe that these former supporters of the Spokesman are undergoing cognitive dissonance: "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Some will be forced to recant their anti-Dasam Bani beliefs, some will continue to rationalise and make excuses in order to resolve their dissonance. We can't hope for 100% recovery, but lets try to get all we can back to the fold. Thanks for your efforts in this regard.

It's really quite a shame that the (current) Nanakshahi calendar was forced upon the Sikh panth when there was no pressing emergency requiring it. I say it was forced because after failing to achieve sarb-samiti (unanimity), they forced it was a simple majority vote. There are already plenty of issues on which we are divided, did we really need another one right now? By the way, it's note quite true that the every thing was fine and dandy with the Bikrami calendar. It seems the ??* pandits didn't agree amongst themselves as to the correct dates some years. So there was actually some reform that was necessary, but it wasn't an emergency, either. Perhaps it might have been better if a small amendment had been made to the Bikrami system in league with other users of the calendar in India. As for calling the Nanakshahi calendar a point of pride amoung the Sikhs or a "Sikh calendar" which all Sikhs should adopt: There isn't just one Nanakshahi calendar, but many, including one which the SGPC adopted, and then modified in favour of the current one. You don't just willy-nilly modify calendars, and certainly not in the same decade. After that, no businessman will adopt the Nanakshahi calendar, even those in India, even those in Punjab, even Amritdhari , because there is no trust that the SGPC will not change things once again. You can't run your business on a foundation of sand like that. As for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Prakash Divas occuring twice in some years, and not once in others, this is so ridiculous, it's amazing. In fact what happens, is sometimes the Purb is in late December, and sometimes in early January. When people say this, what they are really saying is in year 20xx AD (Christian year), the Bikrami calendar doesn't align to the Christian one. But, so what! Why does it have to? The whole concept of saying "Guru Gobind Singh Ji's birthday doesn't occur this year" is unfounded. Rather, we need simply say "Dasmesh Purb occurs in December, and not January this year." I encourage everybody not to fight over this latest unnecessary controversy, and just accept whatever date your local Gurdwara happens to celebrate Gurpurbs.

Every movement is composed of a small minority that composes policy, and then the mass of supporters. While the ringleaders (and those cynical communists who have only recently kept their kes as a ploy) are a separate matter, the fact is, most of the ordinary members of these organizations are just average Sikhs who don't have the benefit of santhia, training, or even of having read Gurbani. As such, they are easily mislead. Even those mislead Sikhs who were hard-core Spokesmen supporters, having given financial support to Spokesman and having participated in his "Ekas ke Barak" organisation's Ponzi scheme ("double your money in two years") are disillusioned with him after he has failed to give any clarification at all regarding disavowing the 9 Gurus after Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Rather, he said of his critics (recent supporters), they are crows and birds, and I don't have to answer them. There are three articles regarding this issue by a former Spokesman reporter and financial supporter from Bathinda in the October India Awareness. When a pro-Afghana magazine is publishing anti-Spokesman articles, we just have to contact mislead Sikhs whom you might happen to know personally, and speak to them on a friendly basis about the current realities in order to get them back. Taking a harsh tone with them will only alienate them. Using a composed tone will bring them back to the highway (gaadi rah) of Sikhism. Bhai Gurdas Ji says in his kabbits that impossible tasks can be accomplished by sweetness of words. (Again this applies to ordinary members, not the ringleaders.)

Everybody, I think it's important to not speak harshly with supporters of Ragi Darshan Singh. For most Sikhs (maybe 90%), they just vaguely know him as a popular ragi/jathedar who also does katha. He has a nice speaking voice, and the combined effect is people believe whatever he says. These are just everyday, normal Sikhs who haven't had the opportunity to read Dasam Bani, and whose first introduction to such was through the anti-Dasam Bani crew. Naturally, these normal Sikhs have been mislead to believe Dasam Bani is something bad, and something that every good Sikh should oppose. They think they are protecting the good name of Dasmesh Ji by doing so. Just keep that in mind when you engage someone like that. You need to gently lead them to the reality of Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani. The latest India Awareness (a pro-Kala Afghana magazine from Delhi) on the web has articles recounting the disillusionment of former Spokesman supporters who were shocked when the editor of the Spokesman disavowed 9 Gurus after Guru Nanak Dev ji (whom he never actually calls "Guru"), Guru Granth Sahib ji, khande-bate da amrit (or pahul, if you prefer). These were top supporters. If you have a friendly relationship or a kind way of speaking, you can easily turn such mislead Sikhs back to the mainstream of Sikhi. Remember: Mithat nivi nanaka, gun changiaian tat. O Nanak, sweetness and humility are the essence of a good character.

Thanks for sharing this. Anyone with close personal knowledge of Ragi Darshan Singh or his family, please share what his motive or stimulus was for starting this movement against Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani. It's amazing to think this is the same Ragi who years ago specifically mentioned "Dasam Granth" in his katha and went on to quote many lines from Dasam Bani that refute the worship of Devtas (demigods). There's an mp3 of this available (search for "Darshan Singh Ragi Dasam" on Google.

Jassa veer, you've got to be kidding, right? You've seen the quotes from normal (non-Sikh) people above who only sleep for a few hours. If non-Sikhs can do it, surely Guru ke Sikh can do so, right? The logic in sleeping less is simply that Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji, and Guru Gobind Singh Ji have recommended it. Khandit nindra alap aharan Nanak tat bicharo. Gursikh thora khavna, thora soauna, thora hi bolna. Alap ahar sulap si nindra daya chima tan preet. BCM. (Bhulchuk maf)

The first level of sovereignty is to have control over what you eat. To achieve this sovereignty, you have to either prepare your food yourself, or eat food prepared by your community or brotherhood (bhaichara).

Thanks for posting this breath of fresh air. The way some people are trying to pronounce letters/symbols which aren't there, and on the other hand are ignoring the vowels which are written in plain sight is preposterous. It's like the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes, but nobody wants to be the one to say the emperor (i.e., our "scholars") are naked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes Advice: Read bani as it's written, and have faith in your Guru that he was at least able to write or dictate at the level of any fifth-year Punjabi schoolboy, and he meant what he wrote. akhar likhae saeee gaavaa avar n jaanaa baanee ||1|| rehaao || I sing the Word which You have written; I do not know any other Word. ||1||Pause|| p 1171 The words and letters that have been written, I sing those; I do not recognise any other Bani.

Well, this thread has turned into quite the brawl. YoungSikh also stated the same kind of views in another thread (about Immoral Deeds). I asked him to provide a definition of what he calls "living simply", but he failed to do so. I guess what he means by "living simply" is living like every other person on this entire earth. If so, it's hard to see what the point of Guru Nanak Ji's coming to earth was, as YoungSikh thinks, there's nothing to differentiate Sikhs from everybody else. I guess living simply means watching actors take their clothes off and rub their bodies together, going to discos and clubs, drinking alcohol, eating haram and halal, and not for a moment singing the praises of God. See

I don't think you need to use the kind of ink used by Guru Sahib. You should buy the most expensive ink you can, and make sure it has the most lasting properties. You should also buy the most expensive, acid-free paper you can. There are great spiritual benefits to writing the praises of God, as mentioned in Bani: kehathae pavithr sunathae sabh dhha(n)n likhatha(n)aee kul thaariaa jeeo || Those who chant are sanctified. All those who listen are blessed, and those who write save their ancestors. p 81 I don't think you should attempt to write all of Gurbani right away. Start with a few shabads in your personal shabad book. Improve your handwriting. Find out about foot-characters, visarg, halant, and some other special characters that only occur in Gurbani, and not and modern Punjabi. Then write Japji Sahib. Then a full gutka. Then you can do seva of writing a full srup of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There's apparently a formula for ink (shiahi kee bidh) in some handwritten birs (usually at the end). You don't need to bother with this, as you should probably use modern inks with modern papers. It would likely be difficult to get all the ingredients even if you were in Punjab.

Thanks for this post. We're all familiar with the tuks by Bhai Gurdas Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji regarding sleeping less, but these tend to be dismissed as poetic flourishes. The fact is there are many Gurmukh piyare who survive quite well on a 2 or 3 hours of sleep. Some in Amritsar sleep during the Sukhasan period at Darbar Sahib, and they take full advantage of the hours of parkash.

I have a hard time understanding why in the world the GNNSJ had to replace the gold plating in the first place! Was it just to cover up the bullet holes from the 1984 invasion? By contrast the Jallianwala Bagh bullet holes are preserved and some of them framed: http://www.daylife.com/photo/080o2ks0Fqd3j The fact is gold doesn't corrode. Here's what various sources say about gold: "The tarnish films formed are generally harmless although unsightly and may lead to a black smudging of the skin. Such films can be easily polished off by a jeweler to restore the bright gold color." http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrgold.htm So why wasn't the gold just cleaned, not replaced? "Gold nuggets do not naturally corrode, even on a geological time scale." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion Geologic time scales are hundreds of thousands, even millions of years. Yet we are to believe the gold was corroded after only 150 years? "The materials most resistant to corrosion are those for which corrosion is thermodynamically unfavorable. Any corrosion products of gold or platinum tend to decompose spontaneously into pure metal, which is why these elements can be found in metallic form on Earth, and is a large part of their intrinsic value." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion So, if gold reacts at all with anything, it turns back into gold. I'm amazed at the stupidity of our people, and the malfeasance of the SGPC, and our willingness to tolerate this.