BhForce

And to have recorded it for Youtube, too. After all, why have the same discussion over and over again with a handful of people when you can get it out to thousands? Agreed. ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ Aap Japahu Avareh Naam Japaavahu || Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it. ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੨੦), ੫:੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੯੦ ਪੰ. ੪ Raag Gauri Sukhmanee Guru Arjan Dev

Mindblowing. Thanks for highlighting this. Although I would mention that these people are the "fundamentalist Muslims" you see in the media. According to Muslims, Ahmadyas are not even actually Muslims. But, yeah, I get your point. The question regarding stalls is this: Do they have the legal right to be there? Where were they, exactly? On the sidewalk along the route? If so, that's illegal, right? You can't block the sidewalk. So call the police, or inform the organizers, and let them call the police. I think a lot of people set up their langar stalls on the front yards of people along the router, either their own house, or a Sikh they know, or even a Sikh that they asked permission from. Which is all OK. So if these Ahmadias are on a Sikh's lawn, we can obviously get them booted. Perhaps even if they are on a white Canadian's lawn. But ... what if there's an Ahmadia along the route? Then we can't do anything. Although, we could try asking the mosque, like you say, but why would they have to consent to what we want? Seriously though, these non-Sikhs are lined up like vultures trying to feast off of us. The non-Sikhs sense that we Punjabis have energy, and they want to utilize it.

Yes, all 4 of these. Probably #1 the first one. In Punjab people who have a determination to be the "headman" become, variously, panch, sarpanch, councilman, mayor, MLA, MP, etc. In the West, that's often not possible, so they fight like dogs to become Gurdwara president. When you're Gurdwara president, it's more like you're president of the entire community. To prevent that, I think we should encourage organizations like the North American Punjabi Association and City Sikhs and so on. People who have a leadership bug can go and become the local presidents of those types of associations, and be the "president of the community", meanwhile those who want to do seva can be in the Gurdwara committee.

Apologies, bro, I did not initially view the video. What a royal mess-up by the Buddha Dal in misprinting a Gutka.

Exactly. Oh, so it's not a made-up saakhi? Even if it were, it would be good. It sounds vaguely like the saakhi of Bhai Banno. I agree that it is unreasonable to demand discounts of shopkeepers because "it's for a religious purpose". They can't verify that. You're trading on your long beard to make the other guy think you're "religious". You're just setting it up for unscrupulous people with beards to come by and abuse it, which then gets found out, and then people lose faith in Sikhs and Sikhi. On the other hand, it would be OK for a gurdwara to put out the call for construction materials, legal services, accounting services, medical services (free medical camps). Then people can verify it's for a religious purpose because they're giving directly to the gurdwara. And then sawmill owners can drop off wood at the gurdwara, marble showroom owners can drop off marble, etc. Or people in fields not in demand can buy the stuff (possibly at cost) and have it delivered to the gurdwara.

Thanks for replying. The point is, it's free to the eater. Anyway, "free food" is the term he used, so I went with it. Langar is the term we would use. Yeah, it does cost, but why would you bring that up? The traditional Sikh teaching is to not worry about the cost, just do voluntary service (seva), and Guru will take care of the rest. Agreed. Yes, that's what I meant. In this context, I did not mean "a person who commits violence on non-practitioners". However, even with the first meaning, if @TheeTurbanator is a better-practicing Sikh, or even the best practicing Sikh in the world, it doesn't given him the right to call less-practicing Sikhs mere "Punjabis" and read them out of the faith. Whatever, man. Call it dharam or mazhab if it pleases you. My point is it's not his right to read people out of our faith/religion/way of life/dharam/mazhab if they are looser in their practice of it than him. Why would an atheist attend a nagar kirtan? Do you think the members of the Tarksheel Society ("rationalist" society) attend nagar kirtans? When I used the term "all" I said all the people he's denigrating, not all the people who might be in the vicinity of a nagar kirtan. He's seemingly using the term "Punjabi" to mean "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as I am". Yes, I do believe the vast majority of nagar kirtan attendees believe in Akal Purakh and our Gurus, and their bani, even if they don't recite it every day. What does it matter if there are a few non-Sikh bystanders? All I'm saying is don't label people who don't have Jaap Sahib and Sukhmani Sahib memorized, and also do Asa di Vaar kirtan from memory as non-Sikhs. Why is this controversial? He wrote a big old divisive essay denigrating loose Sikhs as non-Sikhs and denigrating our culture when he could have just written an inclusive and unifying paragraphs calling for banning non-religious music at nagar kirtans.

Welcome to the forum. Why don't you create a free account to facilitate conversation? I applaud your desire for Sikhs to stick together and do stuff for our Panth. But I think you are mistaken when you think the burden for that should be on shopkeepers or other service providers. I believe you are mistaken when you think it's not reasonable for musical instruments to be multiple times the price of the same product as in India. The price of a product is always less in the immediate vicinity of where it's produced. Do you honestly think that anyone should be surprised that the price of bananas in our homeland of Punjab is multiple times the price in as in banana-producing states like Tamil Nadu? Not to mention the fact that shipping is not free, takes time (tying up capital), the shopkeeper has to face the risk of fraud by the shipper (or he has to bear the time and expense of going to India himself and dealing with the paperwork to export to England), and also the risk of breakage in shipping, plus pay customs while taking delivery. Then he has to store the stuff until it's sold. Need I remind you that the parts of England where Sikh shops are located are quite dense, with commensurately expensive real estate. Warehousing inventory is not cheap. I feel it was unfair of you not to be cognizant of these difficulties of running a business. You're speaking of stuff of which you have no knowledge, bro. If you had the knowledge you could have just taught your child kirtan yourself. The fact is most music teachers have very particular views of instruments, practice methods, and a lot of other stuff. (And I'm talking about music teachers in general, including Indians, Englishmen, Americans, etc.) There is also a wide variety in the structure and manufacture of instruments. You call it arrogance, somebody else could call it experience. Not only that, but they could also call your view ignorance. And, again, it is unwarranted to call it "greed". It is quite possible that from his perspective, the music teacher was doing you a favor by not forcing you go have to go to India just to buy an instrument. Those are all good values. But here's another value you're overlooking: Respect for one's teacher (ustad). In our culture, we respect our teachers immensely. If you don't like your ustad, you should have investigated and chosen another one. Also, please don't say the ustad himself is only a kid. I've seen kids under 18 who are ustad-level, because they've been at it for years, and they have acquired knowledge of Raags. That's great that he did so, but I would caution that he is under no obligation to do so. You want to be able to go up to a shopkeeper, ask for a discount for religious purposes, and get it. I would rather recommend that everybody pay full price (normal price), and then when you make your offering at the Gurdwara, you get the fruit of having donated. By doing it the other way, you put the burden on the shopkeeper, and also allow freeloaders to get discounts by lying about donating to the Gurdwara. Why should shopkeepers in our community bear the entire burden? Why shouldn't lawyers, accountants, taxi-drivers, etc. pay full price for goods, and donate them? Then, with the profit that shopkeepers earn, they can make an offering of their dasvandh.

What? You mean to say people stopped celebrating Vaisakhi after Guru Sahib created the Khalsa? No, they simply did not. Not only that, Hindus celebrate Vaisakhi (under other names) throughout India, including: Bikhu or Bikhauti in the Kumaon region of Uttarakhand, India Bisu – Tulu New Year Day amongst the Tulu people in India Rongali Bihu in Assam, India Edmyaar 1 (Bisu Changrandi) – Kodava New Year. Maha Vishuva Sankranti (or Pana Sankranti) in Odisha, India JurShital (New Year) in Mithila (parts of Nepal and Bihar, India) Naba Barsha or Pohela Boishakh in West Bengal and Tripura, India, Nepal and Bangladesh Ugadi in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Telangana, India Puthandu in Tamil Nadu, India Vishu in Kerala, India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaisakhi#Month_of_Vaisakh_celebrations_in_Hinduism It would have been better if you had simply stated that some Sikhs believe Guru Nanak ji was born on Baisakhi, instead of making the outright claim that Guru ji indeed was. The former is an undeniable true fact, the latter is a tenuous claim. Do you sitting in the 21st century know better the Bhai Gurdas ji who references the traditional date of Kattak Puranmashi? Used to be? It is a harvest festival (present tense). The day was used by Guru Sahib. It was not "transformed" or banned, because there was no need for banning. Punjabis didn't worship idols on Vaisakhi, they merely celebrated the harvest. Devolved? Why do you feel a need to use that word? There's simply nothing wrong with celebrating the harvest. Yeah, for Sikhs it's about the Khalsa Panth. For Punjabis it is about (authentic) Bhangra dancing and colorful clothes. However, free food is not a Vaisakhi/Punjabi tradition, it's a Sikh tradition of Langar. Why would you denigrate the Sikh institution of Langar? Free food is not handed out at (inauthentic) Bhangra parties. It's handed out at Nagar Kirtans to the Sangat (or non-Sikhs, too). Another culture?! It's out culture, man. Guru Sahib chose this day. Are you really serious? You propose to remove every little bit of Punjabi culture from the Sikh panth? I'm just amazed at the self-hatred of our people. You'd never hear a Christian Englishman saying that "we need to ban every last bit of English culture". Great, so keep doing this. Since about the time of the 6th Guru, farmers constitute the largest single group in the Sikh Panth. I can't say if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is reality. I utterly fail to see what you hope to accomplish. Also, if it's so irrelevant, then people won't celebrate it. Problem solved. Why do you need to interpose? OK, so what's the problem? All Sikhs celebrate the celebration of the Khalsa on Vaisakhi. And a great number of Sikhs celebrate the harvest. What are we arguing about? Spoken like you're not a Punjabi yourself. Again, an Englishman would never say "I feel like Englishmen can have a place in the Christian community." So generous of you to offer a place to Punjabis in the Sikh Panth, who are, of course, the very folks (our forefathers) who suffered all the depraved invasions, killings, tortures, thefts, and rapes of the jihadis. When you achieve your desired purge of Punjabi culture, all that remains will not be a "pure" Sikh culture. It will be Anglo culture with an unrecognizable Sikhi. When you say "Punjabis" do you mean to say "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as you because they're not Amritdhari"? Before you go down that road, I would remind you that that there are Sikhs who are more hardcore than you. Maybe @ipledgeblue wears a blue chola and 3 ft kirpan, and could say you're not a Sikh. (I'm not saying he would say that, just that he could. So think before you start calling people non-Sikhs.) It's just stupendous that you would read Sikhs out of our religion just because they're not as knowledgeable as you. This is another reason the definition of a Sikh by SGPC (yeah, hate on) is so good: It doesn't say you have to have Japji Sahib memorized to be a Sikh. It doesn't say you have to be kesadhari, or amritdhari to be a Sikh. It simply states you have to have faith in Akal Purakh, the 10 Gurus, their bani, Guru Granth Sahib, and the 10th Guru's Amrit, which is what all those people that you denigrate as mere "Punjabis" have faith in. You could have just led with that, bro, instead of a whole long essay denigrating our culture and heritage. Who in his right mind would disagree with the above statement? In any case, non-religious music is not allowed at any nagar kirtan that I've seen. The few straggler Gurdwaras should get their act together. I hope we are talking about authentic bhangra, a dance by only men used to celebrate the harvest, not a male-female pop-music dancing gig. No, we must preach against the bad elements of Punjabi culture (such as girl-killing), and also demonstrate Sikhi's superiority over other religions while also demonstrating Punjabi culture's superiority over other cultures.

Username checks out. You clearly believe you're superior to us "normal" Sikhs. How's the air on Mount Olympus?

What terrorists are you talking about? Syria is a country, with a government headed by Assad, not a terrorist organization. Its ally is Russia, and if missiles had hit Russians or Russian bases, or done wider damage, it would have retaliated by hitting American ships, after which I would ask you: do you think the US would not respond? If it would, then that's your WW3.

They are printed by the SGPC. And transported from country to country either by charter plane or by specialized bus created by the SGPC. The detestable publisher Chattar Singh Jivan Singh also publishes copies. I would advise any believing Sikh never to obtain a sarup from them.

Well, I think there are two Sikh perspectives on the issue of Rani Jindan and her "lovers": 1) Extramarital relations are prohibited in Sikhism, and Rani Jind Kaur is to be condemned for her actions. In this narrative, her actions are of a piece with the general debauchery of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's court, which led to complacency, and ultimately defeat and humiliation at the hands of the British. The lack of rehit led to the fall of the Raj. 2) The "history" written by Mohammedans like Mohammed Latif and others is information warfare to impugn the character of actors of the Sikh Raj. In this narrative, the poor Sikhs having false history written about them is of a piece with the Sikhs being betrayed by various courtiers in the Anglo-Sikh wars. The problem is the moment somebody says Rani Jindan was a <banned word filter activated>, and you hear it, it affects you, whether you logically try to tell yourself there's no real proof or not.

Well, your choice, bro. Although I do think you will admit that waiting more time will not elicit less responses, right? One of the reasons I say so is the admin changed up the homepage a few months ago to where it doesn't show the recent topics on top right of the homepage. It shows the top contributors (which is useless), and then the most recent posts (not topics). Posts move fast, the most recent ones obscure the older ones. Topics are more long-lived, but still, the more active topics there are, the more chances they will be obscured. And we all know that huge numbers of people never go into the forums, they just check out what's on the homepage. Anyway, I'd like to ask you to ask the admin to move the "top contributors" back to the bottom left wide column, and put the "recent topics" back in the top right narrow column.

No, brother, I did not. You can't just throw up a video without a few sentences of its import, and expect people to view the whole thing. Anyways, thanks for now doing so. Finally, I would advise this babaji to contact the Buddha Dal with hard info in order to make changes in the Gutka at the source instead of trying to tell random people on the Internet which then means they will possibly tangle with those who read the "incomplete" Brahm Kavach.

Well, the only difference between the Damdami saroop and the original (Aad) granth was the addition of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's bani, meaning a difference of only 1.95%. We're not talking about the difference between a originally it was a granth praising Jehovah and stories of the prophets and now we've got a granth (Guru Granth Sahib) praising the all-pervading God and having hymns, not stories. The fact is Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's bani is basically giving the same message as the Aad Granth, with some differences in style and focus. It is not a radically different message. So, what's the worry? Well, isn't it just cute that the Muslims are talking about us not having the Damdami saroop, since its because the jihadis that we lost it in the first place! It's like killing somebody's dad and then taunting him for being an orphan. Also, it is thought that the saroop given Gurgaddi is a different one from the one created at Damdama. So there's that.

How would you know, bro? I would imagine that the Budha Dal, of all groups, would know what belongs in Brahm Kavach and what doesn't. Anyway, what's the line, and what's your source for the original?

I think if you want to solicit "the truth" about various topics, you should slow down your pace of posting topics to allow discussion on all sides in-depth.

1. Well there are people who, in their mind, accept the "peaceful" Guru Nanak ji, but not the "warlike" Guru Gobind Singh ji. They would mostly describe themselves as Hindus. A lot of them go to gurdwaras in Delhi and Amritsar, and elsewhere. Some don't go to gurdwaras, but simply sometimes turn on the Gurbani channel on TV, and turn on Hindu devotional channels other times. But there are also other Hindus who respect Guru Gobind Singh ji but don't desire to be "full-time" Sikhs. 2. There are an exceedingly small number of "Sikhs" who think that Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't pass on the Guruship so the other 9 Gurus are illegitimate (and by extension so is Guru Granth Sahib ji). These people are out of their minds. 3. There are the Sindhis, who were Hindus from the Sindh region now in Pakistan who were taught love of Guru Nanak ji and Gurbani by Sikh saints and preachers. They install and read Guru Granth Sahib ji but don't take Khanda Amrit or keep hair. Interestingly, LK Advani, former Indian BJP party #2, is a Sindhi. 4. Then there are "Sikh" splinter groups who depart from the Guru line when their own particular guru went off in a huff and a puff from the main Guru line. For example, the Meenas accepted the Guru line up to the 4th Guru Ramdas ji, but accepted their own Pirthi Chand in place of Guru Arjan Dev ji. Similarly, the Ram Raiyas (followers of Ram Rai) accepted the Guru line upto the 7th Guru, but don't accept from the 8th forward. Also, the followers of Sural Mal, who mounted an attack on Guru Teg Bahadur ji (9th Guru). And the Naamdharis don't accept Guru Granth Sahib as Guru. Sikhs believe that the jot (spirit) of all the 10 Gurus (and Guru Granth Sahib ji) is one. About the unity of the Gurus, Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote that the saints know the Gurus are one, and the fools do not: ਅਮਰ ਦਾਸ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ Amar Daasa Raamdaasa Kahaayo ॥ ਸਾਧਨ ਲਖਾ ਮੂੜ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਯੋ ॥੯॥ Saadhan Lakhaa Moorha Nahi Paayo ॥9॥ Amar Das was called Ram Das, only the saints know it and the fools did not.9. ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਸਭਹੂੰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ Bhiaann Bhiaann Sabhahooaan Kari Jaanaa ॥ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ Eeka Roop Kinhooaan Pahichaanaa ॥ The people on the whole considered them as separate ones, but there were few who recognized them as one and the same. ਜਿਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ Jin Jaanaa Tin Hee Sidhi Paaeee ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝੇ ਸਿਧਿ ਹਾਥਿ ਨ ਆਈ ॥੧੦॥ Binu Samajhe Sidhi Haathi Na Aaeee ॥10॥ Those who recognized them as One, they were successful on the spiritual plane. Without recognition there was no spiritual success.10. ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਅ. ੫ - ੧੦/(੪) - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

I believe that this would be a more fruitful discussion if not steered towards Raag Mala. Most of the Panth accepts Raag Mala, a few don't. What's more interesting for me, and a discussion we should have internally to ward off potential enemies of the Panth, is differences in the 1429 pages before Raag Mala. Are there differences in saroops in the 1429 pages (referring to pre-Raag Mala bani according to printed saroop page numbering). And if there are differences, are they major or minor? So far as a analysis of textual differences of many different saroops conducted by an advisor to Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti found, there are minor vowel differences in a few places. There are no major differences (word differences).

Hmm, Chahal is a Jat surname. Extremely strange to see a Jat as a Buddhist. They are usually Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh. Or maybe it was an Ambedkar follower who worked for a Chahal family and adopted the name when they had to get a passport.

Yeah, according to which calendar, SGPC, Purewal, Bikrami?

Ever heard of making money while on holiday. Plenty of work opportunities to make some extra income. Yes, I have, in fact. But I had totally forgotten about it until you mentioned it, thanks. Unfortunately, the US does not have such a program for British citizens. You have to have a job already lined up. Plus demonstrate your exceptional ability and college education. Plus there are usually more applicants than visa slots, so there's a lottery every year, and the quota is already filled up for this year, next chance Apr 2019. And you have to actually work, it's doubtful your employer will give you a month off after you just started. If your intention is to work a day or two, tour a day or two, and repeat, no employer will sponsor your visa (which is expensive). Canada, on the other hand, has the International Experience program for people 18 to 35. But, as you noted, there's less stuff to see.

You're right. Except that the OP has belatedly stated that it'll be too expensive for him to stay in hotels. So he's down to just staying with his relatives in Toronto.

I noted that you'll not be killed just as you step off the plane. The point is that Canada is safer than the US. Granted, 99.9% of the time, you'll be OK. It's just that people should not be complacent. On the matter, of California, that's where: A young Sikh gas station attendant was gunned down Two elderly Sikh men, 65 and 78, were killed walking 68 yr old Sikh found dead Sikh man beaten up and hair cut Another 68 yr old Sikh beaten up severely, and Gurdwara defaced And an 82 yr old attacked in Fresno in 2013, outside a Gurdwara So please don't make Sikhs think they're absolutely safe in California. They're not.