BhForce

Why? The Sikhsangat.com site is extremely usable on mobile devices. If you open it up on your phone browser, it just works. It's just the right width. It's not like some old-time sites that are really wide, and then you have to zoom in, and pan side-to-side on your phone, making it a pain to use. It works well horizontally, too. So why bother to make the admin come up with an app on top of his other duties?

Bro, there's no need to quote a whole long post if you're just replying to a single sentence. Anyway, yes, actually worship the 10 Gurus, and also Guru Granth Sahib. It's the same thing. Guru Nanak ji = Guru Gobind Singh ji = Guru Granth Sahib. So, to continue the conversation, do you or do you not acknowledge that we are commanded to worship the Guru? Or, if you want to get into definitions, fine, define worship. Or if you don't want to use that English word, the actual word used in Gurbani is pooja. So do you acknowledge to we are to do pooja of Guru Sahib?

Again, this was for humility. Anyways, before we talk about other stuff you said, you need to reflect on and acknowledge the status of Guru in Sikhism. Read the following verses with humility and purity of mind: ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ Gur Dhaathaa Samarathh Gur Gur Sabh Mehi Rehiaa Samaae || The Guru is the Giver, the Guru is All-powerful. The Guru is All-pervading, contained amongst all. ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਡੁਬਦਾ ਲਏ ਤਰਾਇ ॥੨॥ Gur Paramaesar Paarabreham Gur Ddubadhaa Leae Tharaae ||2|| The Guru is the Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God. The Guru lifts up and saves those who are drowning. ||2|| ਕਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥੁ ॥ Kith Mukh Gur Saalaaheeai Karan Kaaran Samarathh || How shall I praise the Guru, the All-powerful Cause of causes? ਸੇ ਮਥੇ ਨਿਹਚਲ ਰਹੇ ਜਿਨ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿਆ ਹਥੁ ॥ Sae Mathhae Nihachal Rehae Jin Gur Dhhaariaa Hathh || Those, upon whose foreheads the Guru has placed His Hand, remain steady and stable. ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਆਲਿਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਾ ਪਥੁ ॥ Gur Anmrith Naam Peeaaliaa Janam Maran Kaa Pathh || The Guru has led me to drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; He has released me from the cycle of birth and death. ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ਦੁਖ ਲਥੁ ॥੩॥ Gur Paramaesar Saeviaa Bhai Bhanjan Dhukh Lathh ||3|| I serve the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, the Dispeller of fear; my suffering has been taken away. ||3|| ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੫) (੯੦) ੩:੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੯ ਪੰ. ੧੯ Sri Raag Guru Arjan Dev Again: ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੫) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੫੨ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਲਾਇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ Gur Paramaesur Poojeeai Man Than Laae Piaar || Worship the Guru, the Transcendent Lord, with your mind and body attuned to love. ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥ Sathigur Dhaathaa Jeea Kaa Sabhasai Dhaee Adhhaar || The True Guru is the Giver of the soul; He gives Support to all. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਮਾਵਣੇ ਸਚਾ ਏਹੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Sathigur Bachan Kamaavanae Sachaa Eaehu Veechaar || Act according to the Instructions of the True Guru; this is the true philosophy. ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਤਿਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ Bin Saadhhoo Sangath Rathiaa Maaeiaa Mohu Sabh Shhaar ||1|| Without being attuned to the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, all attachment to Maya is just dust. ||1|| ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥ Maerae Saajan Har Har Naam Samaal || O my friend, reflect upon the Name of the Lord, Har, Har ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਲ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Saadhhoo Sangath Man Vasai Pooran Hovai Ghaal ||1|| Rehaao || . In the Saadh Sangat, He dwells within the mind, and one's works are brought to perfect fruition. ||1||Pause|| ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ Gur Samarathh Apaar Gur Vaddabhaagee Dharasan Hoe || The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Infinite. By great good fortune, the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is obtained. ਗੁਰੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਨਿਰਮਲਾ ਗੁਰ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ Gur Agochar Niramalaa Gur Jaevadd Avar N Koe || The Guru is Imperceptible, Immaculate and Pure. There is no other as great as the Guru. ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੀ ਸੋਇ ॥ Gur Karathaa Gur Karanehaar Guramukh Sachee Soe || The Guru is the Creator, the Guru is the Doer. The Gurmukh obtains true glory. ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥ Gur Thae Baahar Kishh Nehee Gur Keethaa Lorrae S Hoe ||2|| Nothing is beyond the Guru; whatever He wishes comes to pass. ||2|| ਗੁਰੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਮਨਸਾ ਪੂਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ Gur Theerathh Gur Paarajaath Gur Manasaa Pooranehaar || The Guru is the Sacred Shrine of Pilgrimage, the Guru is the Wish-fulfilling Elysian Tree. ਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਇ ਉਧਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ Gur Dhaathaa Har Naam Dhaee Oudhharai Sabh Sansaar || The Guru is the Fulfiller of the desires of the mind. The Guru is the Giver of the Name of the Lord, by which all the world is saved. ਗੁਰੁ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਊਚਾ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ Gur Samarathh Gur Nirankaar Gur Oochaa Agam Apaar || The Guru is All-powerful, the Guru is Formless; the Guru is Lofty, Inaccessible and Infinite. ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਗਮ ਹੈ ਕਿਆ ਕਥੇ ਕਥਨਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ Gur Kee Mehimaa Agam Hai Kiaa Kathhae Kathhanehaar ||3|| The Praise of the Guru is so sublime-what can any speaker say? ||3|| ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ Jitharrae Fal Man Baashheeahi Thitharrae Sathigur Paas || All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru. ਪੂਰਬ ਲਿਖੇ ਪਾਵਣੇ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਰਾਸਿ ॥ Poorab Likhae Paavanae Saach Naam Dhae Raas || One whose destiny is so pre-ordained, obtains the Wealth of the True Name. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣੀ ਆਇਆਂ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥ Sathigur Saranee Aaeiaaan Baahurr Nehee Binaas || Entering the Sanctuary of the True Guru, you shall never die again. ਹਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਰਉ ਏਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਾਸੁ ॥੪॥੨੯॥੯੯॥ Har Naanak Kadhae N Visaro Eaehu Jeeo Pindd Thaeraa Saas ||4||29||99|| Nanak: may I never forget You, Lord. This soul, body and breath are Yours. ||4||29||99|| ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੫) (੯੯) ੪:੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੫੨ ਪੰ. ੧੮ Sri Raag Guru Arjan Dev Gurbani clearly states above that we are to worship Guru and God. Do you acknowledge we are called to worship the Guru?

Right, I agree that they convert because they're looking for a spiritual experience. I also agree that they didn't need to convert, because they could have found that spirituality right in Sikhism, if they had just bothered to read Gurbani for once.

In order to advance the conversation, can I ask whether you bow down to Guru Granth Sahib ji, like every other Sikh does?

No problem, the point of a forum is to have discussion. Agreed.

Great to hear that, hope to see more of you on the forum. That's good, but I would want to warn you that some people fall into the mistake of thinking that they have realized the Truth of Sikhism, and everybody for the last 500 years has been doing it wrong. I would urge you not to fall into that trap. I would not say that mere paintings of the Gurus should be banned, but you're right that some foolish Sikhs do bow to them, and they should absolutely not. Mostly, these are people who don't have a single gutka in the house. If you have a gutka, place it on a high shelf, and you can bow and do ardas while facing it. Instead of "ritualism" I think you might mean to say "idol worship". Anyways, not it's not idol worship to think the Gurus are holy in some way. The Gurus are holy. Forget the Guru, even those who merely serve the Guru are holy, and so are their parents: ਧਨੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਇਆ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ Dhhan Jananee Jin Jaaeiaa Dhhann Pithaa Paradhhaan || Blessed is the mother who gave birth; blessed and respected is the father of one who serves the True Guru and finds peace. ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਗਇਆ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥ Sathagur Saev Sukh Paaeiaa Vichahu Gaeiaa Gumaan || His arrogant pride is banished from within. ਦਰਿ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਨ ਖੜੇ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ Dhar Saevan Santh Jan Kharrae Paaein Gunee Nidhhaan ||1|| Standing at the Lord's Door, the humble Saints serve Him; they find the Treasure of Excellence. ||1|| ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ (ਮਃ ੩) (੪੯) ੧:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨ ਪੰ. ੧੩ Sri Raag Guru Amar Das So, if the mere servants of the Guru are holy, how holy do you think the Guru himself would be? Answer: Pure holiness. Not only are the Gurus holy, their parents and their lineage is holy, too: ਸਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਭਈ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੀ ਜਿਥੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਆਇ ॥ Saa Dhharathee Bhee Hareeaavalee Jithhai Maeraa Sathigur Baithaa Aae || That land, where my True Guru comes and sits, becomes green and fertile. ਸੇ ਜੰਤ ਭਏ ਹਰੀਆਵਲੇ ਜਿਨੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ Sae Janth Bheae Hareeaavalae Jinee Maeraa Sathigur Dhaekhiaa Jaae || Those beings who go and behold my True Guru are rejuvenated. ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਪਿਤਾ ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਕੁਲੁ ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਸੁ ਜਨਨੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਣਿਆ ਮਾਇ ॥ Dhhan Dhhann Pithaa Dhhan Dhhann Kul Dhhan Dhhan S Jananee Jin Guroo Janiaa Maae || Blessed, blessed is the father; blessed, blessed is the family; blessed, blessed is the mother, who gave birth to the Guru. ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਠਾ ਤਿਨਾ ਲਏ ਛਡਾਇ ॥ Dhhan Dhhann Guroo Jin Naam Araadhhiaa Aap Thariaa Jinee Ddithaa Thinaa Leae Shhaddaae || Blessed, blessed is the Guru, who worships and adores the Naam; He saves Himself, and emancipates those who see Him. ਹਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਹੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੋਵੈ ਪਾਇ ॥੨॥ Har Sathigur Maelahu Dhaeiaa Kar Jan Naanak Dhhovai Paae ||2|| O Lord, be kind, and unite me with the True Guru, that servant Nanak may wash His feet. ||2|| ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੭) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੫ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੧੦ ਪੰ. ੮ Raag Gauri Guru Ram Das Now, if Guru Nanak Dev ji were to appear right now in front of you, would you matha tek and wash their feet? If so, great. If not, sorry to say, bro, but you don't have the level of devotion and love that a Sikh is supposed to have. It say right there in Gurbani that a Sikh's mentality is of a humble servant wanting to wash the Guru's feet. You're confusing two different things. We're not supposed to bow down to pictures of Guru Sahib, we're suppose to bow down to the actual Guru Sahib (currently Guru Granth Sahib ji). At the same time, the fact that Guru Nanak ji say they were not special means nothing. That's what Christian missionaries say. They say that since Guru Nanak ji called themselves "neech", therefore he was lowly. No, Guru Sahib was not lowly. Guru Sahib only called themselves lowly out of humility, which is a Gurmat virtue. Guru Nank Dev ji was and is Satguru. Satguru is everything. Satguru is God. Satguru is the creator. Satguru is the grantor of wishes and boons. He is the grantor of spiritual bliss. Satguru Nanak ji is not "nothing special".

Erm, what? What's to say that they were Sikhs prior to becoming Buddhists? I would venture to say they were not. They were just "Hindus" (not really, because they probably couldn't participate fully in the temple rituals), but do you have anything to say they were actually Sikhs? The fact is that they were looking around for a religion to join, and Ambedkar chose Budhism, so that's what they became. Also, when you say that Punjabi Buddhists are Buddhists because of caste discrimination, that's exactly why I questions why a Chahal would feel the need to become a Buddhist. Obviously, it's for a reason other than caste discrimination.

Well, yeah, but not in the way you replied to my statement. It is no more controversial to state that Chahal is a Jatt surname than to say that Anand is a Khatri surname or Smith is an English surname or O'Reilly is an Irish surname. We don't "believe" in devtas, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. We just don't place our faith in them. Similarly, we don't believe that any one racial group is inherently better than another.

It's not as if it's completely forgotten or anything. There's a gurdwara at the site of the Vadda Ghallughara at village Kup outside Ludhiana. Badal also built a memorial when he was Chief Minister. There's also a gurdwara at the site of the Chota Ghallughara at Kahnuwan in Gurdaspur district plus another memorial built by Badal. So, it's not like we've totally forgotten those Sikhs who perished in those slaughters. I would agree, however, that not too much mention of the Ghallugharas is made in local gurdwaras.

Thanks a lot. Also, 1) Could you remove anonymous reactions? I (and a lot of others, including @GurjantGnostic) don't see the need for anonymous reactions. Or perhaps only keep "like" and "funny" as a reaction. When you like something, you agree with it, there is nothing more to say. If you don't like something, you should explain yourself. There is nothing more frustrating that an army of sockpuppets coming by and putting a "confused bootha" face on your post, with no explanation of why they did so. 2) The old frontpage layout was better where it had on the right sidebar the most recent threads, then the most recent posts. All the way on the main bottom, it had the top posters. Frankly, top posters is not something that people urgently need to know. It's more of an ego thing for people who post a lot (such as me and about dozen others). The reason for having top threads on the right sidebar is that's where most people know of the existence of a thread. If it's not there, it doesn't exist. They don't go into the subforums. I know that there's still a top posts section on the frontpage, but that easily gets overwhelmed by a few posts in the same thread. The top threads section is more stable in getting attention out to some threads that didn't have the most recent posts. I know that the layout I'm requesting is already present in the thread pages. But I'd really like to see it on the homepage, because that's the starting off point for most people, and it's really awkward to have to open up a random thread, just to then see what the top threads are.

I see. I think the exceedingly small number of Jatt, Ramgarhia, Khatri or other such Buddhists must be the overly educated rich Delhi/Mumbai dwelling-type who have never had the fortune of being exposed to the real Sikhi, and instead have the misimpression that Sikhi is simply about swinging swords around or some such and there is no spirituality in it. They are exposed to a whiff of spirituality from some Buddhist that they meet in the big city, and they think, "I've found it. Real spirituality. Never would have experienced this in the small-time provincial atmosphere of Punjab. I'm becoming a Buddhist." Whereas if we had gotten off our butts and preached the real meaning of our faith, we wouldn't have this problem.

So many good points here. For one, we think of Sufis as the "good" and tolerant Muslims. But did you know that the main religious cheerleader for the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev ji was a Sufi Muslim leader from Sirhind (a huge city of that time)? His name was Ahmed Sirhindi, and he was a prominent member of the Naqshbandī Sufi order. Supposedly he was a big philosopher. Here's Brittanica on him: In refuting the Naqshbandīyah order’s extreme monistic position of waḥdat al-wujūd (the concept of divine existential unity of God and the world, and hence man), he instead advanced the notion of waḥdat ash-shuhūd (the concept of unity of vision). According to this doctrine, any experience of unity between God and the world he has created is purely subjective and occurs only in the mind of the believer; it has no objective counterpart in the real world. So you'd think this guy was just living the life of the mind, right? No, he was a fanatic who encouraged the Mughal emperor employ policy of radical Islam (also known as simply "Islam") and to execute Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj. This fool's tomb is hardly a mile from the site of the execution of the 2 younger Sahibzade at Fatehgarh Sahib. It's huge complex called Rauza Sharif, and it's quite popular with Muslims. You can also see a few stupid Sikhs visiting the tomb of their 5th Guru's enemy. Note: I'm not saying all Sufis are murderers or encouragers of murder. I'm just saying keep your eyes wide open.

Hey, don't you know? All religions are equal. Get with the program, bro! (sarc)

Thanks bro. Just one more thing: Where exactly was the stall situated (so we can prepare our response for upcoming Nagar Kirtans). Was it on somebody's front yard? Was it on a sidewalk? Or was it in a stall allocated by the Nagar Kirtan organizers? Also, were there a lot of Sikhs perusing the books or talking to them? Or were they being ignored by our peeps?

Well, as I mentioned above, it's unclear what the specific situation was where they were located (sidewalk, private lawn, etc.). We may or may not be able to legally stop them from setting up a stall. But, yeah, I agree the reason they target us is they perceive us as weak. Even if we can't boot them via the police, we can swarm their stall with knowledgeable Sikhs. We should be prepared with a contingent of Sikhs to do parchar to Sikhs, and then also contingents to debate with any non-Sikhs that show up. It's like an army attack. Army vs. army is a fair fight. Prepared Muslims vs the average unprepared Sikh is a slaughter. Anyway, the the knowledgeable Sikhs will debate the Muslims, while the average Sikhs can stand around and watch, and get enlightened instead of being bombarded with false factoids by the Muslims. If they get the message that that's what's going to happen to them every nagar kirtan, then at some point, they'll stop showing up to nagar kirtans. Another tack we can take is to make it clear to them that we have no problem with them following their own faith, but if they're going to try to convert Sikhs, then we'll return the favor with a stall every Friday at their mosque. I have a feeling they'll back off. Thoughts?

Bro, please respond to this to say whether you saw this with your own eyes, or you just heard about it. If the former, then where where exactly were the Ahmadiyas and Brahmkumaris situated? Sidewalk? A stall allocated by the nagar kirtan organizers? A private lawn? With permission, or without? Also, on what street between what cross streets? Thanks.

Great writeup on Sheikh ji, bro. There was actually a big (10 page) thread on the question of whether Sheikh Fareed ji was a Muslim where a bunch of us refuted just that allegation. I would like to ask you to post this plus the rest of your writing on the Sheikh there as it is a valuable perspective, and the thread would definitely benefit from that. Thanks. Lovely. I would love to see the Youtube video of that, lol. I'll refrain from criticizing Taksal specifically, but we all know that some (but not all) people in many different Jathas have the my-organization-is-the-best mentality. I assume these pamphlets, like most writings on Sikh topics, had Gurbani on them? Stunning that people's dharabazi would be so strong that they could not flinch disrespecting Bani if it means that they could disrespect what they perceive as enemies (or even non-allies) of their particular jatha. Even if they didn't contain Bani, it's still bad throwing them in the garbage. Good for you. That's where (almost) all the people are, anyway.

And to have recorded it for Youtube, too. After all, why have the same discussion over and over again with a handful of people when you can get it out to thousands? Agreed. ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ Aap Japahu Avareh Naam Japaavahu || Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it. ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੨੦), ੫:੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੯੦ ਪੰ. ੪ Raag Gauri Sukhmanee Guru Arjan Dev

Mindblowing. Thanks for highlighting this. Although I would mention that these people are the "fundamentalist Muslims" you see in the media. According to Muslims, Ahmadyas are not even actually Muslims. But, yeah, I get your point. The question regarding stalls is this: Do they have the legal right to be there? Where were they, exactly? On the sidewalk along the route? If so, that's illegal, right? You can't block the sidewalk. So call the police, or inform the organizers, and let them call the police. I think a lot of people set up their langar stalls on the front yards of people along the router, either their own house, or a Sikh they know, or even a Sikh that they asked permission from. Which is all OK. So if these Ahmadias are on a Sikh's lawn, we can obviously get them booted. Perhaps even if they are on a white Canadian's lawn. But ... what if there's an Ahmadia along the route? Then we can't do anything. Although, we could try asking the mosque, like you say, but why would they have to consent to what we want? Seriously though, these non-Sikhs are lined up like vultures trying to feast off of us. The non-Sikhs sense that we Punjabis have energy, and they want to utilize it.

Yes, all 4 of these. Probably #1 the first one. In Punjab people who have a determination to be the "headman" become, variously, panch, sarpanch, councilman, mayor, MLA, MP, etc. In the West, that's often not possible, so they fight like dogs to become Gurdwara president. When you're Gurdwara president, it's more like you're president of the entire community. To prevent that, I think we should encourage organizations like the North American Punjabi Association and City Sikhs and so on. People who have a leadership bug can go and become the local presidents of those types of associations, and be the "president of the community", meanwhile those who want to do seva can be in the Gurdwara committee.

Apologies, bro, I did not initially view the video. What a royal mess-up by the Buddha Dal in misprinting a Gutka.

Exactly. Oh, so it's not a made-up saakhi? Even if it were, it would be good. It sounds vaguely like the saakhi of Bhai Banno. I agree that it is unreasonable to demand discounts of shopkeepers because "it's for a religious purpose". They can't verify that. You're trading on your long beard to make the other guy think you're "religious". You're just setting it up for unscrupulous people with beards to come by and abuse it, which then gets found out, and then people lose faith in Sikhs and Sikhi. On the other hand, it would be OK for a gurdwara to put out the call for construction materials, legal services, accounting services, medical services (free medical camps). Then people can verify it's for a religious purpose because they're giving directly to the gurdwara. And then sawmill owners can drop off wood at the gurdwara, marble showroom owners can drop off marble, etc. Or people in fields not in demand can buy the stuff (possibly at cost) and have it delivered to the gurdwara.

Thanks for replying. The point is, it's free to the eater. Anyway, "free food" is the term he used, so I went with it. Langar is the term we would use. Yeah, it does cost, but why would you bring that up? The traditional Sikh teaching is to not worry about the cost, just do voluntary service (seva), and Guru will take care of the rest. Agreed. Yes, that's what I meant. In this context, I did not mean "a person who commits violence on non-practitioners". However, even with the first meaning, if @TheeTurbanator is a better-practicing Sikh, or even the best practicing Sikh in the world, it doesn't given him the right to call less-practicing Sikhs mere "Punjabis" and read them out of the faith. Whatever, man. Call it dharam or mazhab if it pleases you. My point is it's not his right to read people out of our faith/religion/way of life/dharam/mazhab if they are looser in their practice of it than him. Why would an atheist attend a nagar kirtan? Do you think the members of the Tarksheel Society ("rationalist" society) attend nagar kirtans? When I used the term "all" I said all the people he's denigrating, not all the people who might be in the vicinity of a nagar kirtan. He's seemingly using the term "Punjabi" to mean "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as I am". Yes, I do believe the vast majority of nagar kirtan attendees believe in Akal Purakh and our Gurus, and their bani, even if they don't recite it every day. What does it matter if there are a few non-Sikh bystanders? All I'm saying is don't label people who don't have Jaap Sahib and Sukhmani Sahib memorized, and also do Asa di Vaar kirtan from memory as non-Sikhs. Why is this controversial? He wrote a big old divisive essay denigrating loose Sikhs as non-Sikhs and denigrating our culture when he could have just written an inclusive and unifying paragraphs calling for banning non-religious music at nagar kirtans.

Welcome to the forum. Why don't you create a free account to facilitate conversation? I applaud your desire for Sikhs to stick together and do stuff for our Panth. But I think you are mistaken when you think the burden for that should be on shopkeepers or other service providers. I believe you are mistaken when you think it's not reasonable for musical instruments to be multiple times the price of the same product as in India. The price of a product is always less in the immediate vicinity of where it's produced. Do you honestly think that anyone should be surprised that the price of bananas in our homeland of Punjab is multiple times the price in as in banana-producing states like Tamil Nadu? Not to mention the fact that shipping is not free, takes time (tying up capital), the shopkeeper has to face the risk of fraud by the shipper (or he has to bear the time and expense of going to India himself and dealing with the paperwork to export to England), and also the risk of breakage in shipping, plus pay customs while taking delivery. Then he has to store the stuff until it's sold. Need I remind you that the parts of England where Sikh shops are located are quite dense, with commensurately expensive real estate. Warehousing inventory is not cheap. I feel it was unfair of you not to be cognizant of these difficulties of running a business. You're speaking of stuff of which you have no knowledge, bro. If you had the knowledge you could have just taught your child kirtan yourself. The fact is most music teachers have very particular views of instruments, practice methods, and a lot of other stuff. (And I'm talking about music teachers in general, including Indians, Englishmen, Americans, etc.) There is also a wide variety in the structure and manufacture of instruments. You call it arrogance, somebody else could call it experience. Not only that, but they could also call your view ignorance. And, again, it is unwarranted to call it "greed". It is quite possible that from his perspective, the music teacher was doing you a favor by not forcing you go have to go to India just to buy an instrument. Those are all good values. But here's another value you're overlooking: Respect for one's teacher (ustad). In our culture, we respect our teachers immensely. If you don't like your ustad, you should have investigated and chosen another one. Also, please don't say the ustad himself is only a kid. I've seen kids under 18 who are ustad-level, because they've been at it for years, and they have acquired knowledge of Raags. That's great that he did so, but I would caution that he is under no obligation to do so. You want to be able to go up to a shopkeeper, ask for a discount for religious purposes, and get it. I would rather recommend that everybody pay full price (normal price), and then when you make your offering at the Gurdwara, you get the fruit of having donated. By doing it the other way, you put the burden on the shopkeeper, and also allow freeloaders to get discounts by lying about donating to the Gurdwara. Why should shopkeepers in our community bear the entire burden? Why shouldn't lawyers, accountants, taxi-drivers, etc. pay full price for goods, and donate them? Then, with the profit that shopkeepers earn, they can make an offering of their dasvandh.