BhForce

Thanks for the article. It would be good if the "reformers" would stop demanding parkash to stop at Hazur Sahib and Patna Sahib. It seems counterproductive to try to force changes in parkash of Dasam Granth. On the other hand, it also seems counterproductive to try to force parkash of Dasam Granth in neighborhood Gurdwaras where there isn't now. The status quo seems just fine, for now.

Thanks for this post. It's useless to deny it. This gathering dwarfs that of S. Dhadrianwale. These are lost souls (including the "Sikhs") forsaking Satguru running around to charlatans. And we have a lot of work to do as far as parchar and so on.

I want to say you have an eloquent writing style and you have obviously thought a lot about the issues. I hope that all those reading with such gifts will use them glorify the tradition of the Satguru instead of tearing it down in favour of a Marxist Shangri-la. Prof. Puran Singh was also a great intellectual. He came back to the Sikh tradition, and in the end acknowledged the smallness of his intellect and the greatness of the Gurus.

http://timetv.in/

The work of the Perfect One is perfect ਪੂਰੇ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1412&punjabi=t&id=59953 There's no need to change it. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sikhi is fine. We just need to preach the Sikhi we currently have. I agree that there's room for minor differences in maryada. Nihangs, taksalis, sant followers, AKJs, SGPCs and other should be able to sit down in one place. Let that not be an excuse to wholesale change our traditions. What about the choice to conserve the past? That's hard too, and it also has a big prize. No, we don't. First, Guru is Guru, and we are Sikh. Guru has the right to do anything, and it was pre-planned anyway. We have only the right to follow. The only possibility would be those panches who are totally absorbed into Guru and God making such changes. But the problem is such absorbed souls are the total slaves of the Guru, and they don't doubt for a second the Guru's maryada and traditions.

Yet, that's exactly what Gurbani asks us to become. Robots, copies, whatever. Gurbani uses the word slave. ਮੈ ਬੰਦਾ ਬੈ ਖਰੀਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮੇਰਾ ॥ I am Your purchased slave, O True Lord Master. ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੈ ਤੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ My soul and body, and all of this, everything is Yours. ||1|| p396 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=396&punjabi=t&id=18260#l18260 Sikhi is a personal covenant in which one hands over the control over one's mind in exchange for the Word (the Gurmantar): ਮੁਲ ਖਰੀਦੀ ਲਾਲਾ ਗੋਲਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਨਾਉ ਸਭਾਗਾ ॥ I am Your slave, Your bonded servant, and so I am called fortunate. ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਚਨੀ ਹਾਟਿ ਬਿਕਾਨਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥੧॥ I sold myself at Your store in exchange for the Guru's Word; whatever You link me to, to that I am linked. ||1|| p 991 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=991&L=1&Lang=1&I=8817 You say that we don't need to speak and have similar opinions, but according to Gurbani, a true Sikh speaks only in accordance with the Guru, not himself: ਹਉ ਆਪਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਮੈ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਹੁਕਮਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥ By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands. p 763 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=763&english=t&id=32745 Abandon the mind's thinking and forget other loves: ਤਿਆਗੇਂ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤੜੀ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਂ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥ Ibid.

You say this, and yet the idea that every Sikh should be a copy of his Guru, expressed in these lines: ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਖੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਏਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਲਾਏ ॥ The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. p444 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=444&english=t&id=20245#l20245 ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਖਾਸ। ਖਾਲਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਉ ਕਰਉ ਨਿਵਾਸ। ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਹਿ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਿ ਤਾਸ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਚਕ ਨਾਹਨਿ ਭੇਵ। These are the basis for the fundamentalism displayed by the Nihangs and the AKJs. Yet, I doubt you would see that as favourable, given your other statements.

When someone views Sikhi as simply a vehicle to implement some eco-feminist agenda, Sikhs object. Sikhs also object when people preach astrology and horoscope reading, worship of Baba Sri Chand, and so forth as a part of Sikhi. I agree that mere skin colour should not be a basis for any kind of discrimination. I agree that Sikhsangat can get rowdy at times. We should try to say whatever we want to say without getting nasty. See also this thread: Egotistical Sikhs .

Why did you delete the sentence where I said we shouldn't fight about the length of Mul Mantar in this thread? Yet, that's exactly what you did in your post. You (indirectly) encouraged people not to fight about the length of Mul Mantar. How is controversial to say "Let's not fight about Mul Mantar"? The Admin power is a big power. It behooves admins to wield it fairly.

If there can't be a standard of morality or taboos (bajjar kurehit), what is even the point of associating to a religious group? Rather than following the currently fasionable trend of condemning Punjabi culture as outdated and ignorant, I laud those aspects of Punjabi culture which are helpful as a barrier from going down the wrong path in life. Something like a tenth to a third of all Americans are bastards (sons of someone other than who they think their father is). But that'll all be OK in the New Sikhi with new taboos. The whole point of a panth is social organisation. There were other followers of bhagats (such as kabirpanthis), but the unique insight of Guru Nanak Dev Ji was that to preserve the knowledge of true spirituality, a unified panth (religious community) was required. ਮਾਰਿਆ ਸਿਕਾ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ । Vaar 1.45.3 http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&pauri=45&vaar=1 Guru Nanak Dev ji created a panth of common platform of values and worldview. Kartarpur had a definite maryada, and it wasn't some kind of weird New Age retreat like Baba Virsa Singh where one person is reading bani, another is worshipping fire, and so on.

Lol. I think you were trying to say something vaguely feminist, but ended up with a sexist statement saying that flowers and stuff are for girly girls and that "Real Men" shouldn't bother themselves with that. You see the institution of Panj Piyare as outdated. Yet language you speak ("male dominated partiarchial system") is that of feminists and Marxists, and they (from John Stuart Mill to Karl Marx) see the institution of marriage itself as oppressive and outdated. They're not talking about giving more rights or respect to women. They see the very institution itself as something that needs to be abolished. The point I'm making is that if you want to be seen as hip and relevant in your particular academic milieu (as opposed to the bad outdated and irrelevant Sikhi), you'll forever be modifying Sikhi until it has no difference between it and Marxist eco-feminism. In fact, the feminist Doris Jakobsh has already called Guru Granth Sahib as inherently anti-women in her books. So what will you do when faced with a choice of being relevant or being Sikh?

I feel as if you feel that without mentioning COP15, Darfur, ozone, and other buzzwords of the modern age no one can give moral discourse. While some of these may be important at some level, the basic foundational level of Sikhism is worship of God through the Gurmantar. Similar to the allegory of Plato's cave, Gurbani claims that we are prisoners to our sense organs, and that release from them, and visualisation of reality requires awaking from our dream state through the recitation of Gurmantar. That in itself is profound, and someone who can speak about spiritual matters needn't be belittled. I agree that we should all try to learn as much as possible about the world around us. You talk about the refusal of Sikh preachers to learn new language, but what about those (outside Punjab) who refuse to either keep up their Punjabi or learn it. You can learn a virtually whole new language to master a field which will earn you mammon, such as learning the language of computer science, mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc., or even French, German, and Chinese, but you can't be bothered to learn Punjabi. ("You" used in a general sense.) I agree, though, that it is good to have missionary activity among those who haven't heard about Satguru.

I laud you for your attention to current events and research on other religions. If there is something to learn on administrative or other non-essential matters, it might be worthwhile to do so. However, I would hate for us to feel as if we have to change Sikhi in order to appeal to the fickle modern Western mind, which wants religion presented as a consumer good. It's a balance between 1) saying you don't need to have visited a central place of a religion to find God and 2) being divorced from the foundations and history of a religious tradition. In Sikhi, it's true that it's stated you don't need to go any particular shrine in order to meet God. Yet, at the same time, a strong sense of veneration of traditional and central places is encouraged (see tuks responses above). Christianity has become highly separated from its origins to the extent that Christians of the Christian holy land are seen by Americans as not quite really Christian. In fact, Christianity is really a bad example if you say you want unity (which you did a few paragraphs before). There's no such thing as unity in the Christian world, everyone has their own church. Sikhi, on the other hand, has always retained strong central authority. And if you want Sikhs to be one: ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਤਾ ਪੁਤਾ ਭਾਈਆ ॥ there has to be a sense of belonging to single central entity.

No, Sikhi is not a democracy. It is not a laboratory experiment for the implementation of the ideas of Rousseau or John Stuart Mill. The leaders of the Khalsa Panth are the Panches who are accepted in the eyes of God. They always have their attention on God night and day, and not a breath of theirs passes which isn't made holy by the name of God: ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones, the self-elect, are accepted and approved. ਪੰਚੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones are honored in the Court of the Lord. ਪੰਚੇ ਸੋਹਹਿ ਦਰਿ ਰਾਜਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones look beautiful in the courts of kings. ਪੰਚਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru. Japji http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=3&L=16&id=127 A gathering of such panches has the force of God ਇਕੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗੁ ਪੰਜੀਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ । Vaar 13.19.1 http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&pauri=19&vaar=13 Although it is true that it could be said we are not meeting that ideal at the moment, our ideal is certainly not democracy. Sikhi welcomes all to come to the Gurdwaras for spiritual solace, but to take votes among all Gurdwara attendees as to panthic or other matters is repugnant to the Sikh ethos.

If Sikhs hold saintly Sikhs to be ਧੰਨ (worthy of commendation), it's because Gurbani holds the saintly to be ਧੰਨ. Guru Ramdas ji asks for the dust of such Sikhs' feet: ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ p305 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=306&english=t&id=14024#l14024 Far from being a failing, remembering such Sikhs is the height of obedience to Satguru. I agree that no one can take the place of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Who was Blair Peach? A dissenter from the National Front?

Good post by HardeepSinghJee. While a lot of things may (or may not) happen, we should still act as if death is just around the corner and remember God.

You seem to portray Sikhs caring for Punjab as a failing, whereas in fact it is not. Rather, forgetting Punjab would be the height of self-centeredness. What sense does it make to go out and try to save the world from drugs, illicit sex, and so on when we haven't saved our own who are just a step or two removed from Sikhi? What's the point of running a soup kitchen to feed druggies in New York City when your own brother or cousin in Punjab has no livelihood? OK, fine run the soup kitchen, but don't forget Punjab. You can tell Sikhs to forget Punjab, but they'll come back to it, again and again, when just even reading their scriptures: ਜਿਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਬਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ Wherever my True Guru goes and sits, that place is beautiful, O Lord King. ਗੁਰਸਿਖੀ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ ਲੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਵਾ ॥ The Guru's Sikhs seek out that place; they take the dust and apply it to their faces. p450 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=450&punjabi=t&id=20423 Yes, there are places outside of Punjab, but Punjab (and particularly Amritsar) are special and have always been the focus of Sikh activities. That's perhaps why, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, born in Patna Sahib, called Punjab ਮਦਰਦੇਸ਼ (motherland) in the Apni Katha of Bachittar Natak. When Sikhs go and find the places where Satguru has been, it seems obvious that they would have to take care of those places, and build institutions there. Otherwise, those place could be covered by people's houses, cabarets, and so on. In the same way, acknowledging the greatness of Guru Nanak Ji, Guru Hargobind Ji went to many of the places that Guru Nanak Sahib visited, including Jagannath. Guru Arjan Dev went to some of the places in Pakistan that Guru Nanak Dev ji went to, and we have Gurdwaras to mark that. If there were no Sikhs whatsoever in Punjab, who would run the Akal Takhat or Harmandir Sahib, or any other historic gurdwara? That's why Sikhs care about Punjab, not because of some antedeluvian prejudice. I think it's a weird kind of thought process whereby someone can wear a Save Darfur or Save Tibet t-shirt to impress their "enlightened" friends or professors, yet far from doing anything for Punjab want to make fun of those who do.

Thanks for taking the time write out your thoughts, whether I agree in all respects or not, you're thinking about the problems of the Panth. Let me respond before people start calling you a traitor and Mehtab Singh comes to ban the thread . Very true. We could all do better with just decreasing the volume a bit. True. Mahakal Sukha Singh Nihang of England said it well when he parodied the fact that we only want to say Fateh to our chosen group members when walking down the street: ਓਇ, ਓਹ ਕਿੱਥੋਂ ਅਖੰਡ ਕੀਰਤਨੀਆ ਆ ਗਿਆ? ਓਹ ਟਕਸਾਲੀਆ ਕਿਧਰੋਂ ਆ ਗਿਆ? Hey, where did that AKJ come from? Where'd that taksali felllow come from?

Welcome to this verbal fighting match that we call "SikhSangat". As for a sikh secret agency: Well, yes, in our dreams. Until then, we should probably focus on seeing if we can run a discussion board before thinking about stuff like that. You're right that the Jews' Mossad goes out and hunts Nazis and so forth even 50 years later. Even in Argentina.

I earnestly hope that each Gurdwara on this earth can become a place of worship of God under the command of Satguru (though without fighting).

What is being said is that close to almost everything will be destroyed in a catastrophe. That would include Gurbani pothis and most of everything else. Whether or when such an event occurs is not something I can speak to. As for pothis going gupt, it has happened before when Muslim governors of Punjab banned any and all Sikh granths.

Very good post. We're not dissing our Sikh protesters, but we still need good planning for any future actions.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Do you want an MP3 of the Ragi performing Dasam Bani? You can get those from http://patshahi10.org

Given that the shops in the background were open, the Shiv Sena's "band" didn't really seem to have worked.