BhForce

I feel as if you feel that without mentioning COP15, Darfur, ozone, and other buzzwords of the modern age no one can give moral discourse. While some of these may be important at some level, the basic foundational level of Sikhism is worship of God through the Gurmantar. Similar to the allegory of Plato's cave, Gurbani claims that we are prisoners to our sense organs, and that release from them, and visualisation of reality requires awaking from our dream state through the recitation of Gurmantar. That in itself is profound, and someone who can speak about spiritual matters needn't be belittled. I agree that we should all try to learn as much as possible about the world around us. You talk about the refusal of Sikh preachers to learn new language, but what about those (outside Punjab) who refuse to either keep up their Punjabi or learn it. You can learn a virtually whole new language to master a field which will earn you mammon, such as learning the language of computer science, mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc., or even French, German, and Chinese, but you can't be bothered to learn Punjabi. ("You" used in a general sense.) I agree, though, that it is good to have missionary activity among those who haven't heard about Satguru.

I laud you for your attention to current events and research on other religions. If there is something to learn on administrative or other non-essential matters, it might be worthwhile to do so. However, I would hate for us to feel as if we have to change Sikhi in order to appeal to the fickle modern Western mind, which wants religion presented as a consumer good. It's a balance between 1) saying you don't need to have visited a central place of a religion to find God and 2) being divorced from the foundations and history of a religious tradition. In Sikhi, it's true that it's stated you don't need to go any particular shrine in order to meet God. Yet, at the same time, a strong sense of veneration of traditional and central places is encouraged (see tuks responses above). Christianity has become highly separated from its origins to the extent that Christians of the Christian holy land are seen by Americans as not quite really Christian. In fact, Christianity is really a bad example if you say you want unity (which you did a few paragraphs before). There's no such thing as unity in the Christian world, everyone has their own church. Sikhi, on the other hand, has always retained strong central authority. And if you want Sikhs to be one: ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਤਾ ਪੁਤਾ ਭਾਈਆ ॥ there has to be a sense of belonging to single central entity.

No, Sikhi is not a democracy. It is not a laboratory experiment for the implementation of the ideas of Rousseau or John Stuart Mill. The leaders of the Khalsa Panth are the Panches who are accepted in the eyes of God. They always have their attention on God night and day, and not a breath of theirs passes which isn't made holy by the name of God: ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones, the self-elect, are accepted and approved. ਪੰਚੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones are honored in the Court of the Lord. ਪੰਚੇ ਸੋਹਹਿ ਦਰਿ ਰਾਜਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones look beautiful in the courts of kings. ਪੰਚਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru. Japji http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=3&L=16&id=127 A gathering of such panches has the force of God ਇਕੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗੁ ਪੰਜੀਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ । Vaar 13.19.1 http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&pauri=19&vaar=13 Although it is true that it could be said we are not meeting that ideal at the moment, our ideal is certainly not democracy. Sikhi welcomes all to come to the Gurdwaras for spiritual solace, but to take votes among all Gurdwara attendees as to panthic or other matters is repugnant to the Sikh ethos.

If Sikhs hold saintly Sikhs to be ਧੰਨ (worthy of commendation), it's because Gurbani holds the saintly to be ਧੰਨ. Guru Ramdas ji asks for the dust of such Sikhs' feet: ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ p305 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=306&english=t&id=14024#l14024 Far from being a failing, remembering such Sikhs is the height of obedience to Satguru. I agree that no one can take the place of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Who was Blair Peach? A dissenter from the National Front?

Good post by HardeepSinghJee. While a lot of things may (or may not) happen, we should still act as if death is just around the corner and remember God.

You seem to portray Sikhs caring for Punjab as a failing, whereas in fact it is not. Rather, forgetting Punjab would be the height of self-centeredness. What sense does it make to go out and try to save the world from drugs, illicit sex, and so on when we haven't saved our own who are just a step or two removed from Sikhi? What's the point of running a soup kitchen to feed druggies in New York City when your own brother or cousin in Punjab has no livelihood? OK, fine run the soup kitchen, but don't forget Punjab. You can tell Sikhs to forget Punjab, but they'll come back to it, again and again, when just even reading their scriptures: ਜਿਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਬਹੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਵਾ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ Wherever my True Guru goes and sits, that place is beautiful, O Lord King. ਗੁਰਸਿਖੀ ਸੋ ਥਾਨੁ ਭਾਲਿਆ ਲੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਵਾ ॥ The Guru's Sikhs seek out that place; they take the dust and apply it to their faces. p450 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=450&punjabi=t&id=20423 Yes, there are places outside of Punjab, but Punjab (and particularly Amritsar) are special and have always been the focus of Sikh activities. That's perhaps why, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, born in Patna Sahib, called Punjab ਮਦਰਦੇਸ਼ (motherland) in the Apni Katha of Bachittar Natak. When Sikhs go and find the places where Satguru has been, it seems obvious that they would have to take care of those places, and build institutions there. Otherwise, those place could be covered by people's houses, cabarets, and so on. In the same way, acknowledging the greatness of Guru Nanak Ji, Guru Hargobind Ji went to many of the places that Guru Nanak Sahib visited, including Jagannath. Guru Arjan Dev went to some of the places in Pakistan that Guru Nanak Dev ji went to, and we have Gurdwaras to mark that. If there were no Sikhs whatsoever in Punjab, who would run the Akal Takhat or Harmandir Sahib, or any other historic gurdwara? That's why Sikhs care about Punjab, not because of some antedeluvian prejudice. I think it's a weird kind of thought process whereby someone can wear a Save Darfur or Save Tibet t-shirt to impress their "enlightened" friends or professors, yet far from doing anything for Punjab want to make fun of those who do.

Thanks for taking the time write out your thoughts, whether I agree in all respects or not, you're thinking about the problems of the Panth. Let me respond before people start calling you a traitor and Mehtab Singh comes to ban the thread . Very true. We could all do better with just decreasing the volume a bit. True. Mahakal Sukha Singh Nihang of England said it well when he parodied the fact that we only want to say Fateh to our chosen group members when walking down the street: ਓਇ, ਓਹ ਕਿੱਥੋਂ ਅਖੰਡ ਕੀਰਤਨੀਆ ਆ ਗਿਆ? ਓਹ ਟਕਸਾਲੀਆ ਕਿਧਰੋਂ ਆ ਗਿਆ? Hey, where did that AKJ come from? Where'd that taksali felllow come from?

Welcome to this verbal fighting match that we call "SikhSangat". As for a sikh secret agency: Well, yes, in our dreams. Until then, we should probably focus on seeing if we can run a discussion board before thinking about stuff like that. You're right that the Jews' Mossad goes out and hunts Nazis and so forth even 50 years later. Even in Argentina.

I earnestly hope that each Gurdwara on this earth can become a place of worship of God under the command of Satguru (though without fighting).

What is being said is that close to almost everything will be destroyed in a catastrophe. That would include Gurbani pothis and most of everything else. Whether or when such an event occurs is not something I can speak to. As for pothis going gupt, it has happened before when Muslim governors of Punjab banned any and all Sikh granths.

Very good post. We're not dissing our Sikh protesters, but we still need good planning for any future actions.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Do you want an MP3 of the Ragi performing Dasam Bani? You can get those from http://patshahi10.org

Given that the shops in the background were open, the Shiv Sena's "band" didn't really seem to have worked.

It sounds like a rehitnama. If anyone knows which rehitname, please post.

22 part series by Maskin ji: http://katha.gurmatc...hya+Mool+Mantar

Although some of what ballym posts is kind of dodgy, he has some good points, regardless of the exact way he expressed it. Let's take them in order: First, the SGPC's main legal mandate is for Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh. I'm not even sure they are allowed to do activities outside this area. Yet, they do. They have a mission in Hapur, UP, and maybe some others as well. Yes, and they paid the price of total disunity. Also, people mistake their own particular translation of the Bible for the actual Bible. Instead of having one Panth (remember "One Granth, One Panth"?), you'll have 200 different ones. In a given language community, anybody with a slight command of the original text will be able to become a huge leader, will be able to mold Sikhi to his own opinions for that language community. So, if Hindus can learn Sanskrit to read Vedas, I think people can learn Gurmukhi to read Gurbani. This is actually a good point. There are two basic needs of humans: wordly and spiritual. You need to have to have the worldly taken care of before you're even able to think of the spiritual: ਭੂਖੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ॥ ਯਹਮਾਲਾ ਅਪਨੀ ਲੀਜੈ॥ After that, people start thinking of the next world. On both of these points, the SGPC basically has little to offer in an organised way compared to the deras. Part of the problem is we are so divided we waste our energy on fighting.

Isn't this the same person who was calling himself Pritpal Singh Khalsa? Now he's Pritpal Singh Bajwa? Dropped the Khalsa, eh?

OK, so I guess we've said all there is to say about the Sikh Channel in this thread. I think if people want to talk about S. Mann Singh of Pehova a separate thread for that topic would be best.

I guess what we can say is to the extent that someone did good, he was a Sikh. To the extent that someone did bad, he was un-Sikh. So, Lachman not looking with lust at his sister-in-law was a Sikh act. Raam cutting off some Shudras ears because he was reading Vedas was un-Sikh. Fighting for your wife could be called Sikh. Cutting off some fellow's sister's nose could be called un-Sikh. We could extend this to other figures of history, like Abraham. Sitting in the city of Ur and remembering God could be called Sikh. Marrying your sister could be called un-Sikh.

amar_jkp, thanks for the link. When making posts, could you take a few moments to write a few sentences saying 1) what the video is saying and 2) what you think about it?

I was surprised by the fact that they actually mentioned Manish Tiwari by name. While it's true that, according to various websites, the MP for Ludhiana brought up the violence in the Indian Parliament, in no way was he standing up for the Sikhs. Rather, the Congress party is taking the line that Badal mismanaged the affair and President's Rule should be imposed in Punjab. Also, they said everyone has the right to hold any samagam they want, which basically means a pro-Ashutosh statement. I think what Tiwari and the Congress would have preferred would be to use even more force, put down the Sikhs for good, and have the Ashutosh samagam go on for the full 3 days. So why are a portion of Sikhs supporting them?

Lol. In Punjabi they say that everybody presents his claim for desirable things. Everybody wants the Sikh Channel to be a reflection of themselves. I guess if some Nihangs had their way, everybody would be wearing blue on the channel. Taksalis: gol paghs and white cholas, taksali kirpan AKJs: Nobody without a keski, Missionaries: They would censor any Dasam bani shabads Veg/Nonveg: Talk about meat all day Sant followers: Sant stuff all day, ban the missionaries I think Mala got it right when he said: So basically, Sikh channel is just reflecting this. Note: I'm not parodying the groups above, just the more intolerant members of them.

Very good effort to go directly to the primary sources, research what is being said, and refute it with Tat Gurmat. Note: I mean simply real Gurmat, not "Tat Gurmat" as preached by missionaries.

Gurbani states Gurmat is the true dharam for all time (4 jugs). Bani also states that Satguru is ever-present. And that there have been Bhagats in every age. Combined, this basically means Sikhi has been around (in gupt form) ever since man remembered God, and God had grace upon him. It is in pargat (manifest) form after Baisakhi Day 1699 and the hukum (command) for devotees is different too.