Mahakaal96

If jatts converted on mass as you alledge then how did they make up the highest percentage that adopted sikhi? The truth is that people from all castes adopted Islam but when the call to sikhi came the largest percentage to answer that call was jatts... historical sources back this claim up. ive spoken about no one in deragtory terms unlike you who has a problem with jatts... the truth is there for everyone to see on this thread. There's me who posted non biased independant accounts from non jatts non sikhs & then there's you waffling on with your own stuff... none of which has been backed up. I can & have traced my lineage back to 52 years before the Mahabharat war so know exactly what my blood line is. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in bachiter natak list & praise their lineage & the lineage of all the gurus, it's good to know what stock you come from. Your ancestors obviously had a problem with jatts... which explains your mindset

No doubt every community has its bad attributes but if your are able to so passionately highlight the negatives then you should accept the good attributes & the positive contributions jatts have made. Your hatred is so obvious to see it's actually pathetic... to ignore the numbers of famous Sikh/Khalsa personalities who were Jatts & then to completely dismiss positive accounts about jatts by complete outsiders completely destroys any credibility on your behalf & exposes you as a butt hurt chura chumar tharkhan or whatever you are

In your desperate need to insult other castes in order to satiate your hate you fail to acknowledge accounts about jatts by non Sikh, non jatt, non Indian & non Asian sources whilst asking for others to acknowledge accounts ( of which you have provided none) historical facts prove that jatts were not converted to Islam like other castes & tribes were. Perhaps that is the reason Guru Mahraj effectively undertook a selective selection when establishing the Akal Sena & later on the Khalsa. It's no coincidence the Guru chose Panjab to establish the army of god... the people of that land (majority jatts) already had characteristics & an anti Mughal mindset that was ripe for creating the army of god. Now run along & be thankful that jatts answered the call of the great Guru in such high numbers & with such sacrifice & courage that you can today call yourself a Sikh.

I've read it. Rattan singh bhangu was the Grandson of Mehtab Singh who along side Sukha Singh beheaded Massar ranger. Guess what..... Mehtab Singh & his grandson Rattan Singh Bhangu were jatts! if I remember correctly the Singh's from Maja are not painted in a good light in Panth Prakash where as the jatts from Malva are highly praised

Say what you want, historical facts about the percentage of sikhs/Khalsa who were from jatt backgrounds, the number of prominent sikhs figures such as baba Buddha Ji, baba deep singh etc who were jatt & independent historical accounts far outweigh your biased, uneducated & hate fuelled views. Hopefully you can one day resolve whatever traumatic experience it is you or your ancestors have with jatts. if European travellers & historians decided to praise the character of jatts then they must have had a reason to do so.... just a shame for you that their accounts don't match up to your views. They were educated people travelling the world hundreds of years ago... your sat on a keyboard in your bedroom

Not at all brother, just adding some perspective to a topic that seems to attract negative & insulting comments from certain members. 6ve patshahs akal sena formed before Khalsa.... most recruits were from jatt background. Adopting sikhi no doubt gives increase in self belief etc but it's hard to find similar observations from outsiders about tharkans, chumars etc who also adopted sikhi Some of the account by the historians attest to the fact that the Guru provided a structure & outlet for certain characteristics the jatts already had. The rest is mahraj lila I suppose

I take it most jatts in the 16th, 17th & 18th centuries could read English so would have been brainwashed by these accounts into becoming docile loyal foot soldiers as you say..... funny then that 2 of the most famous Indian freedom fighters against the British, Shaheed Bhagat Singh & Shaheed Udam Singh were both jatts

I suppose the European historians of as far back as the late 17th & early 18th century must have been wrong.... probably brainwashed

In the eighteenth century Sikhs were very successful in establishing twelve principalities or confederacies called Misals (Misal is a Arabic word means alike or equal [4]). At least nine of these Misals were founded by the Jats. The history of each of the Misals founded in the eighteenth century by the Jats is briefly described below [6, 7, 15-17]. Bhangi Misal This powerful Misal of the Sikhs was founded by Bhim Singh of the Jat background. The name "Bhangi" is derived from the members of the confederacy who made use of Bhang, an intoxicating drug manufactured from hemp [7, 16]. Bhim Singh was succeeded by his nephew named Hari Singh belonging to the Dhillon clan of the Jats. Hari Singh's sons, Jhanda Singh and Ganda Singh played an instrumental role in strengthening the Misl. Also, they are credited for constructing the Bhangi fort at Amritsar (the holy city of the Sikhs in Punjab) and enlarging and beautifying the town with many noble edifices [7] in the later part of the eighteenth century. Kanhya Misal The first chief of this Misal was Jai Singh, a Jat of the Sandhu clan belonging to a village named Kanah, fifteen miles from Lahore (now in Pakistan) [7, 16]. The name of the Misal is derived from the name of Jai Singh's village and one time the Misal was the strongest of the Sikh confederacies north of the river Sutlej in Punjab [7]. Nakai Misal The chief of this Misal was Hira Singh, a Jat of the Sandhu clan [7, 16]. The area lying between Lahore and Gogaira (now both in Pakistan) was called Naka country and during the middle of the eighteenth century A.D., Hira Singh took possession of it; thus the Misal became known as Nakai Misal. Singhpuria Misal This is also known as the Fyzulpuria Misal after a village near Amritsar (Punjab) called Fyzullapur. The Misal was founded by a Jat landlord named Kapur Singh Virk who later on was popularly known as Nawab Kapur Singh Virk [7]. He died at Amritsar in A.D. 1753. Krora Singhia Misal Sometimes it is also known as the Panjgarhia Misal, from the village of its first chief, Karora Singh. Karora Singh belonged to the Jat background [7] and the Misal was popularly known after his name. Nishanwala Misal Two Jats named Sangat Singh and Mohar Singh were the founder of this Misal [7]. These two warriors were the standard-bearers of the assembled Khalsa (baptized Sikh or pure) army, hence, the name Nishanwala was given to this Misal. Sukerchakia Misal This Misal was founded by Charat Singh, a Jat of the Sandhawalia clan and grandfather of the Maharaja (great King) Ranjit Singh, the ruler of the Sikh empire of the nineteenth century [7]. The Misal is named after the native village of Charat Singh, called Sukerchak in Amritsar district of Punjab or Manjha country [15]. Phulkia Misal As per Latif [7], the chief of this Misal was a Jat named Phul of the Sandhu (Sidhu?) clan; thus the Misal is known by his name. Phul had seven sons who became the ancestors of the royal families of Patiala, Nabha, and Jhind States (now in modern Punjab). Ramgarhia Misal Latif [7] wrote, "The founder of the Misal was Khoshal Singh, a Jat of Mouza Guga near Amritsar, Punjab. After his death he was succeeded by Nodh Singh of Sahangi also near Amritsar. Three most daring brothers named Jassa Singh, Mali Singh, and Tara Singh of Tarkhan (carpenter) background and belonging to Mouza Sarsang in the Lahore district (now in Pakistan) became devout followers of Nodh Singh. After the death of Nodh Singh, Jassa Singh became the chief of the Misal. The Misal seized the fort of Ram Raouni (Fortalice of God) and then renamed it Ramgarh (God's Fort [17])". Later on the Misal was popularly known as the Ramgarhia Misal. The largest Bunga with two watchtowers, at the Complex of the Harmandar Sahib was built by the Ramgarhia Misl. The Bunga served as home base for the Ramgarhias during the yearly visits to the Temple and also as a military barracks from which the Ramgarhias could defend the Sacred Site. A gaint block of granite called the 'Coronation Stone' of the Grand Mughals is located in the second floor of the Bunga in the open balcony area. During the period when the Sikhs controlled Delhi the stone on which Emperors were installed and from which they read their edicts was removed from the Lal Killa and carted to Amritsar. This is said to be the very same stone from which the death sentences for Guru Tegh Bahadur and Banda Bahadur were pronounced. Misaldars select a Punjab ka Maharaja Maharaja Ranjit Singh, a Jat of the Sandhawalia clan and of the Sukerchakia Misal integrated all the Misals and ultimately established the Sikh empire in the North-West India, which ended with the British takeover in 1849. One time the Sikh empire embraced the whole of the undivided Punjab (prior to the creation of Pakistan), Kashmir, and a part of Tibet. Even though Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a Jat and a Sikh, during his rule he treated every individual and community very fairly which won him the admiration of people inside and outside his empire.

A British Officer, Captain Falcon, in his Handbook on Sikhs [1] wrote, in 1896, "The back-bone of the Sikh people is the great Jat Race, divided and sub-divided into numerous clans. The Jats are thoroughly independent in character, and assert personal and individual freedom, as against communal or tribal control, more strongly than any other people". As far the origin of the Jat Sikhs or in that matter other Jats, Major Barstow [2] remarked in 1928, "It is from these Scythian immigrants that most of the Jat tribes are at any rate partly descended. They thus colonized the Punjab, Northern Rajputana (modern Indian state of Rajasthan), and the western half of the Gangetic Doab (western part of the modern Indian state of Uttar Pardesh in northern India), and a considerable proportion of the inhabitants of these countries are undoubtly of Scythian origin". In regard to the characteristics of the Jat Sikhs Captain Bingley [3] quoted Thomason in 1899, "they are manly without false pride; undemonstrative; independent without insolence; reserved in manner, but good-natured, light-hearted, and industrious. No one could be associated with them for any time without conceiving both respect and liking for them". Approximately one third of Jats in South Asia follow Sikhism. They make up the majority of Sikhs. Even though there are no up to date accurate available statistics, some people say their number is as high as 85%. As per the A.D. 1888 census returns [4,5] figure for the total number of baptised Sikhs in India was 1,706,909 and the Jats accounted for 66%. Their association with Sikhism is deeply rooted. For example, two of the well known followers of Guru Nanak (born in 1469), the founder of Sikhism, were Jats: Bala (a Sandhu Jat [6]) and Bhai Buddha (a Randhawa Jat). Furthermore, Latif [7] said, "This vast delta (area surrounding the birthplace of Guru Nanak in Punjab called "Richna Doab"), during the period immediately preceding the establishment of the Sikh religion, was inhabited by the Jats and Bhattis (to the best of my knowledge Bhatti is also the clan name of some Jats). In addition, the world reknown Professor Ellsworth Huntington [8] of Yale University remarked, "…the Sikhs are the only one of these… …that has experienced any appreciable selection…. That as important religious selection took place among them in early days seem clear. People do not accept a new faith unless there is something in their temperament which responds to that faith…. Most of the original Sikhs were Jats…". Professor Huntington's assertion of the original Sikhs belonging to the Jat background is supported by several European eyewitness account writers of the eighteenth century: Colonel A.L.H. Polier (died in A.D. 1795) [9] wrote, "Originally and in general the Siques (Sikhs) are zemindars (landowners) or cultivators of land, and of that tribe called Jatts (Jats) which, in this part of India, are reckoned the best and most laborious tillers, though at the same time they are also noted for being of an unquiet and turbulent disposition. This tribe of Jatts (Jats) is very numerous and dispersed in all the country from the Sind (presently, a province of Pakistan or river Indus) to the southward far beyond Agra (a city in northern India). In another document Polier [9] said, "But what is more to be admitted is that those Seik (Sikh) Sirdars (Chiefs), whose territories border on the King's were but very lately of the Jauts (Jats) and of their race and tribe ---- they have put on their iron bracelet, fifty of them are enough to keep at bay a whole battalion of the king's forces, such as they are". Griffiths, J. (his document dated February 17, 1794 A.D.) [10] said, "The Jaats (Jats) are said to observe some institutions similar to the Seiks (Sikhs), wear their hair and beards in the same manner, and are part of the same people, who under Swrudge Mul (Suraj Mal----consult Chapter 5 for more information on this powerful king of the Jats), etc., formerly possessed many of the countries in the North India---". Francklin, W. (Documented during A.D. 1798-1803) [11] wrote, "Considerable similarity in their (Sikhs) general customs may be traced with those of the Jauts (Jats); though these, in some districts, apparently vary, the difference is not material, and their (Sikhs) permitting an interchange of marriages with the Jauts (Jats) of the Doab and Harrianah (probably same as the modern Haryana state of India) amounts almost to a conclusive proof of their affinity of origin. The Seiks (Sikhs) allow foreigners of every description to join their standard, to sit in their company, and to shave their beards, but excepting in the instances of the Jauts (Jats), they will not consent to intermarriages----. If indeed some regulations which are in their (Sikhs) nature purely military ----be excepted, it will be found, that the Seiks (Sikhs) are neither more or less than Jauts (Jats) in their primitive state". Browne, J. (Major and who written the first book in English on Sikhs "History of the Origin and Progress of the Sikhs" in A.D. 1788) [12] said, "The people known by the name of Sicks (Sikhs), were originally the common inhabitants of the provinces of Lahore and Multan (now both in Pakistan), and mostly of the Jaut (Jat) tribe ----". Francklin, W. (documented during A.D. 1798-1803) [11] wrote, "The Seiks (Sikhs), in their person, are tall, and of a manly erect deportment; their aspect is ferocious, their eyes piercing and animated; and in tracing their features a striking resemblance is observable to the Arabs who inhabit the banks of the Euphrates (river in modern Iraq)". This is an interesting observation on and appears to have some historical connection because General Sir Sykes [13] says in his book that a large number of Jats from the Indus Valley were taken to the marches of the Tigris (river in modern Iraq) in eighth century A.D. For more information on this topic the reader is directed to Chapter 3. Regarding the founding of Khalsa (baptised Sikhs or saint soldiers in A.D. 1699) by Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth and the last Guru of the Sikhs, Lt. General Sir MacMunn [14] wrote, "The Jats of the Punjab, sturdy and quarrelsome, flocked to the new brotherhood (Khalsa), and he (Guru Gobind Singh) soon had a force which enabled him to try conclusions… …with the forces at Delhi (Emperor of India's). A strong religious sense did animate these warlike, muscular Jats…. The Jat tribes about the Sutlej and the Ravi rivers hastened to join the faith…. No longer would they turn the cheek to their persecutor, and they began to group themselves by tribes and confederacies known as Misals…".

The person in my picture didn't eat novelty pizzas & sausages made from estrogen packed ingredients that try to replicate taste of meat.... they ate a natural healthy vegetarian diet consisting of vegetables, fruits, grains & dairy. They also didn't drink tea. I have close ties to people who grew up under the guidance of Baba Ji. if you can't see the hypocrisy of people who claim to be vege & against animal slaughter but don't mind eating food that has been deliberately made to mimick the look & taste of meat then that is your choice. What's wrong with the taste of natural vegetables & sticking to that? Using the playing of video games that stimulate your external senses in comparison to food that is consumed for nourishment of the body...... & I'm the thick 1.... ok they have non alcoholic beer available now.... might as well start drinking those.... after all it's only the intoxicating effects of alcohol that are the problem... not the taste

This is what I don't got, what GPS is saying is true, missionaries are almost non exsistent in panjab yet causing so much trouble abroad?! This just confirms what most people already knew, they are deliberately being sent over to the west to divide and split up the sangat.

So Chaitan saroop and anand saroop is the nirgun aspect of gurprasad and sargun arth is in the form of guru, the one who takes you from agyanta to gyan

From my limited knowledge on this I also thought of it like u say Baba Gurbachan Singh ji explains it in katha. The four types of mukhti are obtainable in dvait state, the fifth type of mukhti, kaival mukhti requires complete and total re-emergence into parmeshvar which automatically then destroys any trace of dvait & sargun. It is our karams and antish Karan that restrict our mind so too speak, at jeevan mukht level the destruction of karam elevates even the mind from restrictions, brahmgyani arp parmeshvar.

Can someone tell me the last time amritdhari singhs who wear a kirpan stopped any major crime or atrocity. I'm sure they stop lots of evil doers seeing as they walk around with a shaaster on? Should stop wearing kirpans as we are in peace times or time of political war so might as well take our kirpans off mindset will be spread by missionaries and their supporters soon. If Nihang singhs and their maryada bothers others so much then why not do something, they don't hide or hold Nihang only smagams or akhand paths, they openly do jhatka at anandpur sahib every holla mohalla and openly do jhatka almost daily at hazoor sahib. I guess Giani thakur Singh who spent years learning at taksal under baba gurbachan Singh, baba kartar Singh and lived alongside baba jarnail Singh must not know what he is talking about? He has studied gurmat his whole life and has a wider spectrum that incorporates SGGS, Dasam granth, bhai gurdas ji, puratan rehitnamas and historical Granths not to mention countless other sources of gyan but I suppose his view doesn't count.

Whether it 'minimises' pain or eliminates pain all together only the animal can know, but jhatka as a method is done to minimise/eliminate pain, hope that makes it more clear & precise for you. Like I said earlier the khalsa's maryada comes from SGGS, Dasam, sarb loh and rehitnamas. If all maryada comes from SGGS then where does it say about keeping 5 kakkar rehit? Or keeping keski rehit or sarb loh bibek? That is a ploy used by missionary mindset types to undermine puratan traditions of the Khalsa.

I would advise non amritdhari sikhs who eat meat to avoid halal at all costs, get your meat from jhatka butchers or from non halal source. Reason being halal as a process is very demonic. Although in jhatka the life of a living being is being taken compassion is shown where by the animal is killed swiftly with one vaar to minimise pain and awareness of impending death as a opposed to halal where the animal is literally made to suffer to death.

It's all down to interpretation, some say kuttha refers to halal, Giani ji says this in his katha and he is a vegetarian taksali kathavachak but because he has genuine gyan and knowledge from SGGS, Dasam, rehitnamas etc he is able to say jhatka is a Nihang Singh Khalsa maryada. Thank you for you list of quotes from SGGS sahib but you forgot this one it seems, please read the whole shabad. ਮਃ ੧ ॥ First Mehl: ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥ Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥ O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥ O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good. ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੋਏ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥ All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. ਅਭਖੁ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ�| ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥ It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them. ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥ Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ ॥ If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥ The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice. ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed. ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated. ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms. ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

Can you show me where guru sahib has said what the 4 bujjer kurehits are? Can you show me where guru sahib has given order to keep panj kakkar rehit? The Khalsa rehit does not just come from SGGS, it comes from a combination of SGGS, Dasam, sarb loh and puratan rehitnamas uttered by the mouth of Guru Gobind Singh Ji themselves. Many other historical Granths also talk about jhatka maryada, in the past I have posted pangtia from SGGS ji and other sources in support of jhatka but will no longer do this as it is obvious people will still stick to thier pre-conceived notions of what is right and what is wrong, there's nothing wrong with that as long as you have enough gyan to accept the opposite side of the argument as well and realise it's all down to personal preference and suitability. The recent topic on animal slaughter was a good balanced debate. For those who wish to do serious khoj then there is plenty of material available from both sides, all you have to do is research for yourself. Fateh

Instead of trying to adjust your own budhi to try and accept that mahraj gave the Khalsa a choice on whether they eat jhatka or not you have instead decided to question the actions of Guru Gobind Singh Ji?! There are many nihang singhs who accept the maryada of jatkha, are present themselves at jorh mele when jatkha is performed but as a personal choice do not eat meat. Here is a quote from baba Joginder Singh ji of budda dal raqba: Those who wish to eat meat should eat Jhatka which gears individuals towards warfare. Those Sikhs who just wish to perform selfless service and meditate should avoid meat and maintain a very simple diet. There is no obligation on anyone to eat meat, one should never eat khulla mass. (Jathedar Baba Joginder Singh, Oral Interview July 2006). I think baba ji's quote and the two I put up earlier from Giani thakur Singh ji sum up overall who jhatka is for. Unfortunately many times as Giani ji says in his katha people abuse the process of jhatka just to satisfy their tongue. Some people who have no desire of ever serving in dharam yudh go to places like hazoor sahib or Nihang dals just so they can eat meat afterwards. Or you will get someone who starts of by claiming the don't want or need to take Amrit and keep kes and be shaster dhari because they are just interested in doing simran and are peaceful soul who sees god everywhere and are not fighting type. After not being able to control their senses and more importantly the desire of their tongue they suddenly realise they are a yodah who can't wait for the next dharam yudh to start and use this as a reason to start eating meat. A person needs to be honest with themselves and not try to use maryada given especially to the fauj as an excuse to satisfy the flavour of their tongue.

Giani thakur Singh ji sums up jhatka and who should eat it perfectly in part 25 of Asa di vaar viakhiya which can be found on gurmatveechar.com. Quotes from Giani ji : “Today people have changed traditions in order to please the desire of the tongue and eat other forms of meat from shops etc...Jhatka was a special tradition that was only for the soldiers of the Guru to practise, not normal householder Sikhs.” (Giani Thakur Singh, Asa Di // Viakhya Part 25) "Nihang Singhs eat Jhatka meat because of their traditions. The Guru allowed this tradition of Jhatka to be practised within his army and by his soldiers; it was not for civilians to eat. Maharaj said to them that if need be you may Jhatka an animal and eat it, not just goats or chickens but any animal you may find in the jungle. The Nihang Singhs of today still follow this tradition. When performing Jhatka on a goat, first the goat is bathed, then Japji Sahib and Chandi Di // are read. One Singh stands by the head of the goat and upon the final lines of Chandi Di // being read, ‘Those who sing this divine ballad will be liberated from the realm of life and death’, at this moment the goat is decapitated with one blow and the soul of the goat is liberated. The goat itself lowers its head to receive salvation”. (Giani Thakur Singh, Asa Di // Viakhya Part 25)

So I take it the first four types are dvait mukti as there is an element of sargun still present where as kaival mukhti is advait mukhti, complete re-emergence in nirgun ? I have been meaning to ask baba Jagjit Singh what happens to yodeh who become shaheed in dharam yudh, what kind of mukhti do they obtain and do they get access to sachkand? Neo veer if you could give me some info on this it would be appreciated

Let me get this right, you are someone who is horrified at the thought of 'kaurs in a swim suit', you think about drinking urine and you have the words 'BJ' on the end of your username. Now I am no Psychologist but do think a psycho-analysis based on the above mentioned facts could possibly conclude that you are someone who is a latent homosexual who has deep rooted homosexual desires and someone who harbours same sex tendencies......... Amazing what a few words can reveal about a person.

I hardly think an hour swimming session behind closed doors is a breeding ground for 'feminist extremist', this is just over hyped paranoia. Our women should be trusted and empowered enough to organise such events and try to bring the female sikh community together for all the right reasons. And if any amritdhari bibi does come across an extremist feminist type and forgets her guru then is she really a sikh of the guru or just a surface level amritdhari putting on a show for the world? I hope the opposite will happen, I hope other bibiyan from our community will have a chance to do sangat with amritdhari bibiyan and learn from them, look up to them and admire their devotion towards their guru and their faith whist participating in these events without compromising their decency or self respect. We all know that Muslims are targeting our women, the way to protect them is not by keeping them locked up, the way to protect them in my opinion is to empower them, trust them, make them knowledgeable about Sikhi, encourage them to learn self defence, encourage them to organise such events where they gain a sense of belonging and do sangat with each other and last not least let them know that us Singhs are always there as their brothers if they ever need our help with whatever it may be.

Women in the panth should be allowed to organise these kind of events, especially when they have taken respect and decency into consideration and made it an only ladies event. What they wear behind closed doors at a ladies only event is their business and as for the amritdhari bibiyan I am sure they know what they are doing when it comes to their kakkars. Why don't sikh men be real yodeh and back up their women if they are ever in trouble or being troubled by men from different religions instead of trying to control every aspect of their life? Events like this will hopefully lead to bibiyan doing more sangat with each other and becoming more confident and knowledgeable about their own community.