Kira

Sorry for my ignorance but who is this guy?

If you're friend is an amritdhari then yes. Positively yes. Nothing sexual may have taken place but he was unfaithful. Waheguru's kirpa stopped it going any further but this is something the Panj Pyare must decide on what to do, as they know best.

I watch game of thrones. But I really dont get the urge to go out and slaughter people. Or even let it give arise to some less than charming emotions. I think people seem to think the new generation is really susceptible. This is true in a sense, but most are extremely aware of certain issues and try their best to avoid them. @thebolded. I had a less than charming experience in certain issues being addressed here. I can sympathize with the people. But some of the ones trying to go against this "Whiteness" are mainly just more concerned Punjabi Culture is being ignored. It's less about Sikhi.

Guru Angad Dev ji and Guru Amar Das Ji too I believe were once followers of Hinduism, I believe it was Guru Amar Das Ji that was a devotee of Durga. Through the grace of Waheguru they found the True Guru and with their help they achieved the ultimate state of bliss and become one with the lord. No Mahapurkh and certainly never our own Guru Sahib's referred to themselves as Waheguru. Waheguru encompasses the full might and splendor of the lord. By calling them Waheguru we're also suggesting their physical forms were a part of Waheguru, that their physical self was also waheguru. We need to peer into our Guru Sahib's history. Where Prithi Chand tried to kill Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj, Where Guru Amar Das Ji was assaulted by a son of Guru Angad Ji Maharaj, Our Guru Arjun Dev Ji was viciously tortured by the establishment of the time, or even when Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji lay down his head after being tortured by Aurangzeb. as Harsharan Bhaji said by referring to Our Guru Sahib's as a whole as being Waheguru we're limiting Waheguru, Their souls were one with Waheguru. Their physical forms were inconsequential. That is why we refer to them as Raab da Roop. A form of Waheguru, and not Waheguru.

Honestly pushing kids towards Punjabi Culture is just as bad as pushing them towards western culture, we should push them towards Sikhism which is the tolerant, loving ideology they want by the looks of things, not Punjabi culture. I think Both StarStriker and Big_Tera have good points.

I think their one of those Punjabi=Sikh folks. The one's who would drink,party and then on one day of the week dress up, act humble and go to the Gurudwara. That's why I consider them more Punjabi than Sikh. If any well informed Sikh is a member of them, then I would be saddened to hear that.

Their movement sort of died down now though, especially since their leader quit. The sikh members that belong to them (and I've seen the interviews) are more Punjabi than Sikh. They seem to hate Muslims and joined the movement for that sole reason. Pretty pointless in my opinion.

That. The problem isn't the whiteness to speak crudely. The problem is really that they equate Punjabi with being Sikh. When both aren't totally 100% compatible. As a result they seek out Western culture which to them is far more accepting, if only they knew Sikhism is just as accepting. If not more.

With complete love and devotion though im interested about this too.

And before that Gurbani says this. ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥ दिनु रैणि नानकु नामु धिआए ॥ Ḏin raiṇ Nānak nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e. Day and night, Nanak meditates on the Naam. ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਆਨੰਦ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਏ ॥੪॥੪॥੬॥ सूख सहज आनंद हरि नाए ॥४॥४॥६॥ Sūkẖ sahj ānanḏ har nā▫e. ||4||4||6|| Through the Lord's Name, he is blessed with peace, poise and bliss. ||4||4||6|| Do you have any idea what you are trying to allude to? Guru Nanak was born into this world, He was given a name by his Parents, he grew old as well. Are you implying that Waheguru in all his might came to Earth in the form of a human? are you saying that Waheguru, who is the lord of the universe, was confined to the same principles as we are. Guru Gobind singh Ji made it clear. We're to treat him and the lord AS ONE. But we are not to refer to him as the lord. That is the whole point. They were a part of Waheguru but Waheguru deems them his children, the same way Waheguru is one with them but Waheguru himself is still far far more. They are the river of Waheguru that flows from him and then leads to him. But referring to them as waheguru is prohibited by Guru Gobind singh Ji. I'd also like to add that taking 1 tukh or even one panna out of context from the Gurbani of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a massive, massive mistake. Look at this tukh. ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥ Suasath Aathh Baanee Baramaao || सुअसति आथि बाणी बरमाउ ॥ I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator. 188 ਜਪੁ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪ ਪੰ. ੧੬ Jap Guru Nanak Dev From that one tukh some will say Guru Nanak is referring us to bow to Brahma the hindu God. But in actuality Brahma is synonymous with the Creator. The word brahma is used here to represent the creative aspect of Waheguru. That Tukh you just quoted is totally misrepresented. Let me add one thing. You just said Guru Arjun made it clear who his Guru was. Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Guru Nanak dev Ji are the one Jott, they are the same. Why would he referring to Guru Nanak as a seperate Entity, you're now trying to imply that our Guru Sahib's were all seperate Jotts and not one complete Jott passed down. The Shabad before even mentions this. Then the tukh you quoted comes in, that's where the Guru in that context has been Waheguru. Guru Nanak's light was one with Waheguru, but if we start to refer to him as a full being as being Waheguru, we're implying that waheguru came in a human form, his physical form was also Guru Nanak. Which isn't true.

Once again you've explained things in a way I never could. That was a magnificent post BHAJI. See this time I got it right D: I'd like to add it's alot like that analogy of the river and the ocean. They are connected, they are one, but referring to the river as being the ocean isn't something we would do. The Guru Sahib is that River, we know that river is connected to Ocean but only the river can truly Comprehend it. We can't comprehend it until we too follow the river to the sea.

and once again you pulled a Tukh out of context. Whenever Guru Sahib is mentioned as one and the same as Waheguru, Waheguru is asserted as their teacher, their lord beforehand too. Guru Nanak was the light of the lord, but we DO NOT refer to him as Waheguru. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it crystal clear we are never to do that, but you're still refusing to take his word for it. It took me a while to read and re-read the full part of the bani. What you just quote was the Lord himself assumed the fifth form. The lord being referred to here is Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, not Waheguru. As the previous aspects refer to the Creator in this context as being their lord and master. The entire tukh you quoted was about the history of the Guru Sahib and how even though they changed body their light remained the same. Again let me re-iterate in small words. Guru Nanak never called himself waheguru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji further added to that in his autobiography. Guru Nanak was one with the lord but as said by Guru Gobind Singh Ji we are not to refer to him as the lord, merely the servant of the lord. Alas if you could also follow that advice. The horrific things you said about someone else in another thread is certainly not in-tune with the mind of the Guru. Bhool Chook Maaf karni Waheguru Ji

You accuse me of nitpicking but didn't bother to read the full Shabad. That Shabad was referring to Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Waheguru's light being the one and the same, as was the other one. That's why they said Light form, Waheguru isn't limited to just a "light form" he is far beyond that as he himself has no form. You're confining Waheguru to a human form, a form that is weak, can get diseases and can even be damaged and torn. Are you saying Waheguru would manifest like that and become that form? Guru Nanak and Waheguru's Jott were the same, but he always stated that God was still more. We have no idea of his limits, yet here you are giving him one in the human form. When have I ever denied that Guru Nanak wasn't enlightened. Why do you think our Guru Sahib's always spoke about the Supreme one? why do you think Our Guru Sahib's ALWAYS spoke about God in a different context? It's made abundantly clear that The True Guru referred to in Gurbani is Waheguru. Guru Gobind Singh even further points this out in Chaupai Sahib. Javan kaal sabh jagat banaio. dev dait jachhan upjaayo. aad ant eikai avtaaraa. soee guru samjhiyaho hamara. (9) Creator of Time made the Universe; the angels, demons and yakshas. Start & End only with Him. He alone is My Guru. (9) Yet you're the one that insists on Referring to Guru Nanak as Waheguru. He himself never asserted that, he always referred to himself as his messenger, his student. That is why Waheguru spoke to him during his 3 days of disappearance. That is why time and time again our Guru's always spoke about God as being someone more than them. That is why they referred to him as their lord and master. How have I presented it in a wrongful manner lol. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it clear we're not to refer to him as Waheguru, yet here you are doing that exact same thing for Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He said we should treat them as one but should never address him as God. You accused me of holding onto my own beliefs but you yourself refuse to let yours go as it conflicts with what Gurbani may offer.

I'm so sorry Bhaji. My narrow mindedness is showing, I have only ever met females called Harsharan and as a result that clouded me from the fact Waheguru blessed us all with gender neutral names.

Thank you for the kind words Benji. You show me far too much respect, far more than I feel for myself. My biggest fear has always been straying away from Gurbani and considering what I see as true as being what's in Gurbani. That is why it is nice to see many more knowledgeable Sikhs like Simran Benji and yourself Harsharan Benji seeing the same thigns I am. It's nice to know im not alone and I may be right in my interpretation. We all strive to get and become better sikhs in general. If Our bodies are a radio then Gurbani is the tuner and Waheguru is the true Frequency. We must use the tuner to get one with the Divine name of the Almighty so our bodies can one day resonate the Celestial hymns of The Supreme one. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

No I said that to us we refer to ourselves as Sikhs of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak. whether this is right or wrong isn't something I wish to state since I myself am not sure if this is true. Guru Gobind Singh ji made it clear that he was a servant of Waheguru. They are the same but at the same time Waheguru is beyond that. If you read History Bhagat Kabir Ji died in 1441, 20 or so years before Guru Nanak came into this world at 1469. Kabir Ji attained his enlightenment through the grace of Waheguru. ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥ Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell. ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥ मो कौ दास तवन का जानो ॥ या मै भेद न रंच पछानो ॥३२॥ Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32. ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥ मै हो परम पुरख को दासा ॥ देखनि आयो जगत तमासा ॥ I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world. ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨਿ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥ जो प्रभ जगति कहा सो कहि हों ॥ म्रित लोक ते मोनि न रहिहों ॥३३॥ Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33. The saints that spread Dharma are the one and the same with Waheguru, but Guru Sahib made it abundantly clear we're NOT to refer to him as Waheguru. Again I was speaking about how we as Sikhs address ourselves. refer again to Guru Gobind Singh Ji's words. The true Guru mentioned in Gurbani is Waheguru. Not Satguru Nanak. And before you start a crusade against me about how I'm belittling Guru Nanak Dev Ji, no I am not. He was a True Guru, but the True Guru that is mentioned in Gurbani is Waheguru as Waheguru is described as being their teacher as well. The same way Guru Gobind Singh Ji referred to him as the protector. And so on. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the true Guru. But the Eternal Guru has always been Waheguru. That's why in the first few lines of the Mool Mantr we describe God as being Eternal. If I didn't accept Guru Sahib's teaching why on earth would I be here? I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. I find it highly amusing how you're pulling statements out of thin air. Let me re-iterate what I said with quotes so this time you won't take it the wrong way. I said. and from that you pulled. Bhagat Kabir Ji's bani did come from Waheguru. As did All the Bani our Guru Sahib's wrote. That does not make any of it higher than or lower than one another. The Gurbani which literally refers to the bani of the Guru i.e the Bani of Waheguru (which also means glorious teacher so is synonymous with True Guru) was later collected and that became the form of the Guru Granth Sahib we recite. our own rehet Maryada deems that to be a Sikh we have to. That is why I referred to it as . Our Supreme teacher is Waheguru, our master is Waheguru. But the one who's given us the key to become closer to Waheguru is our Gurbani, i.e the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Then I went on to say is he a Sikh in the sense a learner from waheguru. WHICH is also a definition of Sikh but in a slightly different sense than the one we are more prone to use. No I am not saying there are 2 different types of sikhs. Please don't add words to what I write and then try to push them off as me trying to say that. Quite frankly the fact that you refuse to believe that Bhagat Kabir Ji was one with Waheguru through only Waheguru is a bit worrying. He even clears that misconception in his own bani. Bhai Gurdas Ji who is easily the most contemporary source of History for us fails to mention Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj in his vaar about Kabir Ji. That would easily be a massive monumental event in anyone's life and this exact vaar is referring to kabir Ji's enlightenment. Gurbani is an ocean of knowledge. One could sit here and spend thousands of years trying to find different meanings from a single line of Gurbani. And even then we would have barely scratched the surface. I'd like to add here the reason I try to be cautious about my views is I don't want to lead anyone on. I'm hardly a scholar, nor am I a brahmagyani, I've been wrong before. That's why I try to present my view but at the same time advice people to research it further, incase I missed something and I am 100% wrong.

That would be so satisfying. I have nothing against Muslims, but the crimes these idiots have done is worth blasting them off the face of Earth.

Honestly you're asking the wrong person. I'm not a Mahapurkh who can give you a satisfactory answer. what you're doing there is differentiating between Bani. Bhagat Kabir Ji wrote his bani while he was tuned with Waheguru (forgive my use of such words Waheguru). When we refer to Sikh who do we talk about? we obviously in layman's terms refer to Guru Granth Sahib Ji's followers. Remember the Guru Granth Sahib is a form of the Shabad Guru. The Shabad Guru is the word of god. We're followers of the Word of god. Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani includes Bhagat Kabir Ji's so you're question is a bit of a contradiction. When you said Sikh I was talking purely in layman's terms. We define Sikhs are being followers of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Is this right? really I have no idea myself. Bhagat Kabir was a Sikh, but he wasn't a Sikh like we are. Our gian comes directly from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, We listen,recite, contemplate that and no other scripture. Bhagat Kabir wrote his bani and our Guru Sahib deemed it on the same status as theirs, they added it to the Guru Granth to symbolize that God isn't exclusive only to them. Others have already achieved what we as Sikhs wanted to. Let me ask you a question. There were clearly other people in gone times who also became one with the Almighty. Would you say they were Sikhs? I don't think they would use the word Sikh lol. That came around during our Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time. Sikh is directly referring to Guru Sahib then. I think it's more right to say they were followers of the Supreme One rather than bring them down to our level and refer to them as Sikhs in the same sense we are. I hope that helped a little. I'm afraid this is a case of identity crisis, a topic I try to stay clear off lol.

I laughed at that. You may have just broke me down into hysterics, thank you. This is the first time I'm hearing of people proclaiming to be Baba Deep Singh Ji. I sometimes wonder if people actually bother reading the history other than the portion where he faced the Invading army and defended Harmandhir Sahib. The amount of Bhaghti he did is amazing, not to mention the amount of time he spent with Guru Sahib.

Absolutely. If you're going to look at the problem you need to explore several things. Firstly look at the population of Sikhs in various countries outside of Punjab. Western Europe United Kingdom 432,000 0.8% 1.77% North America Canada 468,673[4] 1.4% 1.96% Stolen directly from Wikipedia but these are the 2 countries I think we should first address. I'll speak a bit on U.K first as it is where my knowledge is more substantial. When Immigrants first flocked to the UK many of them as simran-ji said were illiterate and very out of tune Sikhism wise. But the natives of the UK at the time were very much against this mass travel. Well a there was a growing and worrying following which held this view. As a result the Sikhs, the Hindus, the Muslims and in some cases even blacks all formed their own community. Afterall there is strength in numbers, who would dare attack them while they are all concentrated in one specific area. As a result they built a thriving community of brotherhood and love. Unfortunately this backfired as well. The older generation were out of tune with Sikhi, again not all. There were some really wise and exceptional individuals but im speaking about the layman. Eventually this bitterness towards the English majority and the English's sentiments of hatred also started eroding away but many families refused to move out of their set neighborhoods. As a result they isolated themselves from everyone else. Now, this has formed the exact recipe for disaster. you have a community where one culture is uneducated in their own religion and another which zealously teaches its youth about it's culture. The isolated community would obviously resort of forming bonds with only who is within their set community. they end up unfamiliar with Sikhism and are pulled by their love for their new boyfriend. This is further made worse by Punjabi songs which romanticize forbidden love. as a result this problem is now made and formed. Now is this a problem for the modern day England residing sikhs? yes. It is a massive one. But rather than blaming everything on the UK Sikhs you should first see that these tales are having a more positive effect on our World-wide community. Our Community is now more aware of these seduction arts and are prepping themselves to NOT fall for them. The stories you hear coming from the UK are now being read by Sikhs worldwide who are learning from our mistakes. Is this a problem worldwide? Perhaps. Why I think this is because the recent stories you're hearing right now are brought to light by the sikhs. Their documented cases. The main problem is that the Indian community in general has a tendency to try and keep these things hush hush at certain times. They gossip with each other but the stories never hit the world stage as they do for us. I may be wrong as obviously I'm not all too familiar with the make-up of the Canadian,US make up of communities. But if our story is resonating anywhere in your community. You may have the same problem as us, if not then that's good news. So in conclusions. Sikhs have not "failed" in England. Many of us have had to deal with the mess our previous generation left behind. But the newer generation of Sikhs are far more in line with Sikhism. Many Sikhs have branched out and gone to other towns/cities rather than resting in the same old London,Manchester etc. That branching out has helped save many of our teachings and now the places where these deeds are happening are slowly but surely filling up with good Sikhi Knowledge. I don't think it's fair to say we failed. We stumbled but we're trying to get back on our feet. I apologize if my comments offended anyone. That wasn't my intention. Please don't take any offense from this.

I'm actually disgusted by Islamic State. A part of me hopes that a colossal explosion wipes them off the face of the Earth.

we need to be very careful with terminology. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was very clear that he wasn't Waheguru, but a servant who was one with the lord. You're words are kinds and i thank you for them. But I am imperfect. I try to follow what I write, I'm successful someways someways I am not. I pray that waheguru will help me overcome my weaknesses.

lol word. It's a problem worldwide. Not just the UK.

Alluding on from that. The True Guru is another name for Waheguru, If we're going to be a bit more specific he was a Sikh of Waheguru. i.e a student. The bani he wrote were one and same as our Gurbani written by our Guru Sahib. Afterall a Saint and Waheguru are one and the same. Was he a Sikh in the sense we are? followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's path and followers of Guru Granth sahib ji. No I wouldn't say so. Was a sikh in the sense he was a learner from Waheguru. indeed he was.

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize. Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani. The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that. Very true. I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa. Very true also.