chatanga1

People are also against ghaghri because he has called Bhai Gurdas Ji a liar. He has also committed the folly of trying to redefine what "god" is which against the Mool Mantar. He has also told people that "god " wants them to sleep-in, in the mornings because that is the way "god" has designed them, to recharge their batteries instead of waking up for nitnem. I'm sure you have heard ghaghri say that births and deaths are only in the mind. What nonsense is that? This has nothing to do with sakhian. You are trying to portray this as the only reason that people are against ghaghri. So do I. I see a person in flambouyant outfits which I would expect to see in Brazilian gay/lesbian parades gaining influence only because of SGGS in his diwans and a load of brain-dead cult followers. So the Guru could make mistakes according to you? Bhai Gurdas Ji vaaram contain a lot of sakhis. Guru Sahib also selected Bhai Gurdas Ji to scribe SGGS. Could Guru Sahib have done this without knowing that Bhao Gurdas has written in his vaars? Saying there is no reincarnation. No 84 lakh joon is going against Guru Sahib. "mainstream" ? Mainstream Sikhi has never rejected reincarnation. Thats because you are wrong. People, like me, outrightly oppose him because of his anti-gurmat teachings. I oppose him because he is a big supporter of darshan rogis group in USA. They support him and he supports them. the same rogi who changed the khande di pahul vidhi. Such a heinous crime by darshan rogi yet not ONE word from ghaghri about it whilst every Sikh who has faith in his Guru has spoken against rogi. Tough. I might not be the person who you are refering to, but I will respond to any type of applause from anyone for ghaghri. I myself don't understand why you would stand in support of someone who has said the anti-gurmat things ghaghri has said. its like you have no faith in Gurbani.

Why no? I haven't had that feeling. You can't show me that feeling, so why do I need to beleive in "god"?

Ok. I base it on the western civilisation that has rejected Christianity and God ever since it start living according to scientific discovery. What fairy tales? Like Baba Deep Singh fighting with his head cut off? Tell me what particular fairy tales you have in mind. Well this ties in with the question I put to you. Prove to me using science and logic that "god" exists so I can pray to him/her/it. I'm one of these older, more independent thinking children. I don't want to be a sheep and follow the crowd. So please prove to me using science and logic that "god" exists so I can pray to him/her/it. Also who would you count as "lok,siane,babaji" ? I think that Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji etc don't fall into the above category. "many" ? So you shouldnt have a problem in proving that "god" exists and I should pray to him/her/it. Let's leave aside "I don't think it has all the answers" for the moment. Lets get somewhere on the most basic question. Let science prove that "god" exists.

Ok. Through science and logic prove to me that “god” is not a fairy tale.

We don't know that "God" exists. We've only been told he exists. I've never seen him. Have you? So it will be ok not to beleive in "God"?

Moran lived some years after and she used some of her wealth from Maharaja to build a mosque in Lahore. She also adopted a son later in life. What is the source of that? From my recollection she was imprisoned in the Lahore Fort, then sent to Sheikhupura Qila for some time, before banishment from Panjab after 1849 war. Interesting. Can you provide a link for that please? I have never heard of her becoming a religious person, even though she built a mosque. Personally, it felt like she was performing an act of charity to help her when she fell from this earth.

I don't want Sikhs to rely on logic/scientific reasoning because I believe no-one can prove that Sri Akaal Purkh actually exists. If you can then prove it to me, and i will stop having blind faith that Sri Akaal Purkh exists and use logic instead. I did in my post. I'll repeat it again for you: "Dhadri says that this is an age of logic and science. That youngsters need to be convinced of Gurmat through scientific and logical means. Which will never succeed. Or if it does will turn Sikhs into athiests, like Christians in the west have largely become after all their scientific and technological achievements. " I don't agree with that and have said so. If you disagree with me, tell me why. Well my friend, that's unfortunately what you did yourself by not reading my post properly.

That line, will differ from Sikh to Sikh. Some will believe all sakhis relating to the Gurus, and some will believe very few. What determines this line, is what your perception of the "Guru" is. My friend who has a year ago become a Sikh (from another religion) always says "The Gurus were perfect and capable of anything!" And he really believes it. So if he were to hear the sakhi of Bhai Lehna being told to eat a dead body, on the orders of Guru Nanak he has no trouble in believing it. Other people may not feel the same about the Gurus, and say that Guru Nanak would never have made such a demand. They feel that there would be no logic/understanding in Guru Nanak Dev Ji asking this of Bhai Lehna. The line, is wherever you yourself are my friend. Nowhere else. "let's say" and "imagine" ? Why ask questions based on hypothetical belief? For me, there is no "let's say" and "imagine." The questions you pose are answered by the actual structure of SGGS. The Gurus employed a numbering system so that there cannot be any alterations. The oldest saroops that exist can prove this. If you go onto Sikh Digital Library you will see saroops from the Guru's own times. If you are talking about historical anecdotes then most likely the teller will add his own embellishments in order to keep the story and it's audience connected. There is some filler, not a lot mind you, in certain sakhis ie of Bhai Maha Singh and the Chali Mukte. Of course we don't know fully. We don't know because we weren't there to witness it and record it. But there is a difference between rejecting what others saw/felt/experienced/heard just because of our own personal foibles. "all" of your belief? No Sikh places his total belief on stories. Sikhs places their beliefs primarily on Gurbani and then sakhis. Of course it is a fact that SOME stories can't be accounted for. But Gurmat has also been passed down by oral tradition for quite a few decades. Now you say that "SGGS is true and everything" but the first solid evidence we have of this is from Gurbilas patshahi 10 which was written some 4 decades after. How can you make your about SGGS unless you actually have some faith that it actually happened although its a little hard to prove? No you most likely can't. But none of the older Sikh texts have gone through such a change that I know of. Which text (where the sakhis are based on) do you feel have? Well in that case do you really need to wear that turban and keep your kes? We don't REALLY know what happened on Vaisaikhi of 1699 do we. Its not written in SGGS. So let's forget all about the event. It most likely has changed all the time and the original event must have got lost in the ages....? And let's focus on today where very few Sikhs actually want to keep kes and wear turbans. Let's make it easy for them by teling them Vaisakhi was something else, and they can see their nearest barbers when ever they want.

Dhadri says that this is an age of logic and science. That youngsters need to be convinced of Gurmat through scientific and logical means. Which will never succeed. Or if it does will turn Sikhs into athiests, like Christians in the west have largely become after all their scientific and technological achievements. You want this for the Sikhs? Everybody of a religious hue says this. Even Nirankaris, Radha Swamis, Sacha Sauda etc. Sikhs have been saying it for centuries. It's nothing new.

These are his previous aliases on this forum, some of which are still active so he can disorganise and disrupt the parchar of Gurmat : Uklondonsikh dtf dhadrianwalazindabad sheikhyobooty sukhasinghmehtabsingh mrsingh 1699gupt

But you are no ordinary poster are you Uklondon Sikh? Or SukhaSingh1699 ? You are more like your hero Ravan with 10 heads and a different user name for every head.

Listen from 3:25 onwards. video-1532264394.mp4

Some people say that bowing to Guru Granth Sahib is a ritual.

Clearly you are having doubts. It's easy to see why. You have been reading the views of people who doubt the Guru themselves. It's up to you who you want to follow. Guru Sahib questioning the Hindus is a plausible thing as Guru Sahib were the Guru. However YOU are not the Guru and you are not questioning any Hindus. You are questioning the Guru yourself. I have a question for you: In your opinion was Guru Nanak capable of doing any of the above you have listed? What about Bhai Gurdas Vaaran which says that Guru Sahib performed miracles ? Was the contents of Bhai Gurdas vaaran unknown to Guru Arjan Dev Ji? You need to read more history. The Dal Panth were only living in jungles intermittently. They were not separate from the Gurdwaras for long periods of time, or long enough for anyone to subvert the message of Gurmat. I haven't heard of any starving children in Amritsar. Have you? Are you against these things because Hindus do the same? The Hindus also do ishnaan, naam simran, brahmans also keep kes, ram Chander kept a bow and arrows, . kshatriyas also ride horses and wear swords etc Shouls we discard these as well because the Hindus do it? Because someone might accuse you of being a hindu, right? The truth and logic within Sikhi? Can you prove that God exists to me in your next post, alongside your answer to my question above? What if Guru Arjan Dev Ji did the same? Was Guru Sahib an idol worshipper? What about his corruption cases as a policeman in Panjab? Or his sexual assault case in Canada? Does that fall under "Gurmat" or "Brahmanvad"? Poor you. Why do you feel so, when Sikh Panth has survived for the last 300 years? What doubt and confusion was there before kala afghan? Why are you taking separate lines and posting them together? Why not post the whole shabad so the message becomes clearer? So at 16 you have made up your mind already that kala afghani is right? What is "Brahmanvad" ?

I will next time I see HER. But whether she can tell me or not does it really matter? The fact is that Pakistan politically is in the hands of the feudals, whether it would be 6 families in Gujrat or 60 in Sindh. It has been since 1947. Read from pg 8 onwards: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9581/2e330ca2b8862e9834316c325fe52f1f788d.pdf "The motivation on the part of the planners of partition riots on our side of Punjab may very well have included the landed and other properties. This point may go some distance to explain why the scale of Partition massacres in other areas of the present Pakistan, for instance Sindh, did not match what happened in Punjab. " from https://tribune.com.pk/story/413855/victims-and-beneficiaries-of-partition/ " Landowners have run the country since it was born. They monopolise its agriculture, sit in its parliament and feed on its resources. They are hereditary princes without pedigree, barons without class, capitalists without enterprise..." from https://tribune.com.pk/story/376904/breaking-the-feudal-lords/ Its very simple. ML used these same feudals to create Pakistan. Now they cannot discard them. Ask yourself how could the ML allow Sikh feudals to be part of this system to shape the future of a Muslim country. The answer simple is that it couldn't. Even that francis mudie said as much in his letter to jinnah. The Zamindar openly called for Sikhs to be driven out of Pakistan. No it is not the same. The nirankaris like others have living gurus, but has the Ahmadi founder ever put his feet on the Quran, called it lies, and said that the prophets of islams were false and liars? If he did, then you have a point.

No they weren't Rawalpindi was the main centre of it, but there was violence In Multan, Gujranwala, Jalandhar, Campbellpur and Amritsar. The conflict between nirankaris and Taksal had been going on since 1969. For many years it never spilled into violence until one day, with the support of the Panjab administration the nirankairs attacked the Sikhs. Its a very different pictire to the one you are trying to paint. The vote to divide Panjab came in June 1947. Rawalpindi happened in March 1947. At that time, in June 1947, even jinah tried to coax the Sikhs into not asking for the division of Panjab. partition happened on August 14th with the decision to divide having been made on the 29th June. So upto that point there was no debate on division but whether Panjab, as a whole should be included in India, or Pakistan.

It wasn't your worries. Its just a trait of yours. To run off at the mouth without any research into it.

As I said the low scale of violence during Aug-Sep was because of gandhi reining the hindus in. Oh come bro! Don't you know that there are many more Muslim feudal Lords in Pakistan and were there before partition? These same people were the ones who bankrolled the ML. How could the ML relieve them of their land and power? I have a friend from Gujrat (Pak) who told me that 6 feudal lords control the entire district. What do you mean by "grabbed the land?" Which land exactly are you refering to? Of course there wasn't. But guess who said that "we will use constitutional and non-constitutional methods to acheive our aim?" I'm sure you'll know. And when it said as well.

Just a few points on this bro. The Muslims did try to cleanse Eastern Bengal of HIndus. Read up on the Noakhali (1946) riots. Thousands of Hindus were killed and thousands of women were raped/abducted. What then held back the Bengali Muslims was the Hindu reaction in Bihar, where in revenge the Hindus attacked the Muslim community. But after Noakhali the Hindus were too fearful to return to those districts. Secondly the HIndu Mahasabha were very keen to kill Muslims but gandhi went to Bengal and stopped them. The mahasabha leaders were furious with his turning up but couldn't do anything. The same reason why the Muslims of delhi survived. They were living in camps in preparation for evacuation to Pakistan. They regularly came under attack from Sikhs (esp those who had come from W Panjab) and Hindus. Gandhi prevented the further killings of these muslims and they were allowed to stay in delhi. . There is one very good reason of this. In Eastern Bengal the Hindus communities assets were nothing special. The Muslims on an economic level held their own. However in western Panjab, the Sikhs held huge amounts of lands whereas the Hindus controlled the banking and commerce. The major hospitals/clinics/colleges were also owned by Hindus. By leaving these in control of the non-Muslims what would be the point of making Pakistan? Pakistan was made to remove the Hindu moneylender and to acquire huge expanses of farmland. If there had been no removal of Sikhs/Hindus in W Panjab, the Muslims would have not benefitted even by the creation of Pakistan. If you read about Bengali history as I have started doing, you will soon realise that these figures went down quite soon after partition. In 1950 and 64 there were anti-Hindu riots and thousands of Hindus fled to India. However in 1971 after Pakistan army action in Bengal, millions of Hindus fled, and thousands were killed as they were believed to be the inspiration for Bengali separation from Pakistan. The Hindu population of East Pakistan (E Bengal) was at 30% in 1947 but is only around 8-9% now. Because the Sikhs esp, were adamant they could not live under Muslim rule, and in a country controlled by the partisan Muslim League. The Muslim league had gone against its very own principle of weighted leverage for minorities wherever they were a minority themselves but refused to support the Sikhs on the same principle in Panjab. Plus one of the greatest failures of the ML was to not see that what they themselves feared in Hindustan (being outnumbered by different religion) the Panjabi Sikhs and Hindus feared the same in Pakistan. No. Read above and you will see that this was not the case at all. The Dawn newspaper had been printing that the removal of the HIndus and Sikhs was neccesssary for the survival of the Muslims before partition had been completed. The Hindus of Lahore were a soft touch. They were weak. They offered no danger to anyone physically but because of the assets ( basically everything of comercial value in Lahore) they held, they needed to go. The Sikhs owned great swathes of the best and valuable lands in W Panjab. But being in a minority they had to go.

So typical to jump the gun and start casting aspertions.

Sorry, for some reason I couldnt edit the first post. The above has been sent to me from someone who is concerned about you, as they themselves don't have an account here. I don't know about your situation but I hope the above post helps you in some way bro.

Bro, you can try the tips below. They might help you out. Firstly, seek help from doctors, psychiatrists, psychotherapists, hypnotherapists, etc. Stop watching suicide videos. They will have a negative impact on your mind. Instead, watch videos which promote positive or creative thinking. TED talks, videos by Sadhguru, etc, might be good choices. Don’t recite Shalok Mahalla navaa too much. IMHO, those shaloks are primarily meant for people who are firmly attached to Maya, so that they can develop some sense of bairaag (detachment) in them, not for someone with your mindset. Recite those shabads which talk about happiness and joy. Listen to katha. It might motivate you to move ahead in spirituality. You might feel good after listening to them. Listen to Kirtan. Try kirtan with this device. It might help. https://experiencenervana.com/ You can also try listening to Kirtan in raags. Some raags produce happiness and joy. For example, Basant, Bilaaval and Mali Gaura. Follow a regular routine. Sleeping and waking up at approximately the same times daily. Ideally, waking up at Amritvela and sleeping at night. Take cold/cool showers on a daily basis (make sure to do keshi ishnaan too), work out daily, go for regular walks and do breathing exercises. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inner-source/201407/cold-splash-hydrotherapy-depression-and-anxiety Eat your main (heaviest) meal of the day near afternoon (between 10 am – 2 pm). Avoid eating at night (after 10 pm). Avoid eating spicy food, excessive garlic, onions, etc. If you are not a Lacto-vegetarian, please switch to this diet. Try some of these foods (lacto-vegetarian ones). https://www.everydayhealth.com/depression-pictures/8-foods-that-fight-depression.aspx#03 Watch some movies. Here is list which might help. https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamiejones/movies-that-helped-people-cope-during-depression?utm_term=.nvAbBDnJqN#.tf1M9yK7Ax You can join Sikhawareness forum. You might like that forum. There are many titbits of katha on that forum. Additionally, you should read the meditation threads, where members discuss about their spiritual experiences. This might motivate you to seriously walk on the spiritual path (which is the goal of this human birth). Try to do sangat of Gurmukhs. Their sangat can have a positive effect on your mind. Try Yoga. Read books on topics which interest you. Reading increases mental stimulation, relieves stress, etc. Go to a nice place with natural beauty (similar to Niagara Falls, Rockies, etc) and spend some time there. Try to make some friends (who are ethical people). Above all, remember that you are a Singh (which implies a Saint Warrior). Our ancestors went through way worse times than us. Still, they kept on pushing forward and stayed in Chardi-kala.

@lostconfussedsingh

Hey Admins, what is going on with the site? I haven't been able to sign in under "chatanga" since the update around a month ago. It keep saying that the username is not recognised. That Chatanga has been jhatka'ed. I have had to make a new profile. Can my previous one be recovered ? Admins, can you do kirpa and bring this goat back to life?