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[Sinner]

alright that's it mate... i m off in this debate.. good luck to you bringin unity in the panth by destroying sampardha's(lineages) which were created by guru themselves...

I already gave you references from gurbani- Gur Ki Morat Mann Mein Dhyan... it's a matter of interpertation now...some people take that tuk as shabad and bring shabad morat in to dhyan and some people bring guru's photo(saroop) in dhyan to reach upper levels... real simran is with dhuni no doubt... no one is denying that but to get to that level one needs to gur ki morat either - shabad akhar form /guru saroop form or bairat upsana form.. you decide... it's all individual choice...it's not always my way or highway.. if bringing shabad akhar forms helps in your case that does not mean it will help in everone's case...so one suggestion- live and let live.

everything is in hakum.. you, me, this universe..it's a human nature that whatever he/she wants ..he/she wants it to happen.. but hakum of nirankar does not hold to individual's desire or ideaology, beleifs.

Sants as nit avtars/karaks will come in this world for human benefit until this whole universe ends... neither you or me can't stop them coming... sants will also create future dera/asharam to spread sikhi of guru nanak dev nirankar...again neither you or me can stop that because they are send by nirankar themselves.. they don't need your support or my support ... only support they need is guru maharaj da support and gurparasad.

whatever you do .. just don't end up like that arashi gyani on tapoban who dreams of burning sants and their dera's even in his dreams..lol.

GuruFateh.

Yes I understand now. Sorry for making this thread, I didn’t understand the mistake I had made. Well I learned something new, the pictures are not the truth……the teachings are.

Thank you for showing me the truth Akaal108.

Sorry if I offended anyone, it was totally unintentional. Ma bad!

Thank you,

-Sinner (6)

[Singh47]

N30 Singh wrote:

"Also how would u define according to your interpertation gurbani when it says:

Gur Ki Murat Man Mein Dhyaan

Gur ka shabad mantar mann maan ||"

This tukh that you are referring to is not translated properly. “Gur Ki Moorat” here does not mean the Gurus physical form in pictures. It means the Gurus Shabad is the embodiment of the Guru’s moorti, in other words, “moorat” in this tukh refers to the Guru’s shabad. Don’t read the incorrect English translations you find in Sikhnet or Sikhi to the max. The correct translation of those tukhs is:

GUR KI MOORAT, MAN MEH DHYAN|| GUR KAY SHABAD, MANTAR MAN MAAN|| GUR KAY CHARAN, RIDHAY KAY DHARIO|| GUR PARBRAHM, SADHAA NAMASKARO||

Meaning: (The Guru’s shabad is the Guru’s Moorti, and) It is this Moorti which is what I meditate (dhyan) on in my mind. Because of the Guru’s Shabad, I believe in the Naam Mantar (as being the greatest of all mantars). (Beleiving the) Guru (to be) Parmatma, I do namaskaar to him.

“Live and let live..nothing is manmaat when someone is deciding to use different techniques to get better concentration to reach close to vahiguroo..”

It is Manmat if it is not in accordance to Gurmat. If you can prove that idol worship is Gurmat and not Manmat using Gurbani then prove it.

I wrote the following a while ago on another forum:

Worshiping using pictures is the same as worshiping using stones. There is no difference. Whether it is pictures or stones, both are wrong according to Gurmat. Worshiping through pictures and stones is known as “Buth Puja” or even “Moorti Puja”. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is against such forms of worship.

HINDU MOOLAY BHOOLAY, AKUTHI JAHI

NARAD KEHAA, S POOJAS KRAHEE|| ANDHAY, GOONGAY, ANDH ANDHAAR||

PATHAR LEH POOJEH, MUGADH GAVAAR||

OUH JA AAP DUBBEH, TUM KAH TARNHAR|| (// bihagRa 1, (20), ang 556)

(Meaning:-- Hindus have forgotten Vaheguru, they are going the wrong way.

They do Puja as Naarad has instructed them. They (the Hindus) are blind, mute, the blindest of the blind. They pick up stones and worship them as ignorant fools.

When these stones (being worshiped) themselves sink, then how can you (who worships them) swim to salvation through the world ocean?)

This can also be applied to the way Sikhs pick up pictures and start worshiping them. They are just paper with colours on it, and nothing else.

JO PAATHAR KO KEHTEH DEV, TA KI BIRTHA HOVAI SEV||

JO PAATHAR KO PAEE(N) PAAE, TIS KI GAAL AJAEE(N) JAAE||

(Meaning: Those who worship stones, their service is worthless.

Those who bow to stones, their work is wasted in vain.)

Similarly a Sikh who worships through a picture, his service is worthless, and those who bow to pictures, it is all meaningless as they are doing it in vain. I am not saying this, this is what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee has to say about idolatry.

Even Sri Dasam Granth is against idolatry.

PHOKAT DHARM BHAYO PHAL HIN, JU PUJ SILA JUGI KOTI GAVAI

SIDH KAHAN SIL KE PARAS BAL, BRIDH GHATI NAV NA PAI

AJ HI AJ SAMO JU BITIYO, NAIH KAJ SARYO KACHHU LAJ NA AI

(meaning: The following of false religious way is a fruitless endeavor. If you worship a stone for millions of Yugas, it will not yield any good, you have simply wasted your time. You do not gain any success, you destroy your energy and do not obtain the worldly riches. O, ignoramus you have wasted you life in idol-worshiping.)

Similarly, no matter how long you worship a picture, it is a fruitless endeavor, even if it is for millions of Yugas.

Please listen to our Gurus and don’t waste your time in idolatry. No ones word no matter how great they are is higher to the word of our Gurus.