Soho Road Jatha to destroy another Gurdwara ?

[aman_jee]

nope sorry, he was only there with giani jee, at the time he didnt realise it was a big deal....i alos remeber reading something about the "restoration" of baba atal tower where thhey had covered the inside with Bathroom tiles..!!! rather than restore the original work.

[kurtas]

Bhai Mohinder Singh wsa given the opportunity of a reply during teh BBC documentary and his repsonse was that the GNNSJ had doen a perfect job and nothing was to change.

These are not new questions, Patwant Singh & world class conservation architects have been pleading for years to have the GNNSJ put right the damage that has been done but to no avail. If you cant respond to the world's experts on early punjbai buildings then the penny isnt going to drop by sending him an email is it?

The damage that is done is done - that cant be reveresed now. but the issue of water ingress can be stopped and the original plates can be returned. These are the absolute minimum requirements.

Aman

104688[/snapback]

Thank you for your response veer ji.

Perhaps the Soho Road wale will sort out the damp problems by getting a brummie expert on damp problems from the Yellow Pages and asking him to do a full damp proof course on the Harmandir Sahib using silicon injections.

To my brothers and sisters on this forum. The damage done by the gold plating bodge up is something that even the GOI failed to do during Bluestar. The Soho Road wale have started the process of destroying the Darbar Sahib though their misguided seva. With damp we will lose the paintings on the walls and eventually the current Darbar Sahib building. As veerji mentions this can be reversed if the Soho Road wale get off their back sides swallow their pride and consult experts. For some reason they are too proud to do this. A shame really as future generations will want to know how the Darbar Sahib building lost its original paintings etc and everyone will point fingers at Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh and Co.

I attach a few pictures of what the paintings on the upper storey staircase looked like earlier this year.

I would like to post the message veerji posted on tapoban as it highlights the damage done.

"There was an outcry by experts in Punjab. Peopl who are word experts in concservation and achritectural historians. People like Patwant Singh tried extremely hard to get the GNNSJ to see that while the seva was welcome it shoudl be doen properly. Peter Poppham an incredibly well respected journalist from the Independant wrote a 1/2 page articel in 1999 titled "Brummies bodge Sikhs’ holy shrine" Peter Popham, 25 September 1999, The Independent. The BBC even carried an investigative piece on the contgroversy titled Gold Service with Dalji Dhaliwal.

Its the GNNSJ that is being pig-headed in not accepting that it is totally unnacceptable to remove the original plates whcih were crafted by Ranjit Singh's expert craftsmen and replace them with shoddy copies and it is not acceptable to plaster over centuries old wall paintings and it is not acceptable to leave the Darbar sahib with a really serious case of rising damp and it is not acceptable to put a 21st century rubber membrane on the roof of the builfding (not letting itr breathe and become increasingly damp) like it was some kind of dodgy indian extension in handsworth.

aman"

[Singh_Shiromani]

OMG

[Guest Lohgarh Singh]

wjkk wjkf

them pics are not caused by the jatha

wats so shoddy bout the works may i ask? i saw sm pics n they looked brilliant?

[kurtas]

The pictures were posted to highlight what the damp conditions can do to the delicate interior like that of the Darbar Sahib. It also highlights the fact that the Jatha ignored areas that required attention and as some would say went for the headline grabbing gold plating job. I suppose it is a good job that they ignored the area highlighted in my pictures as I dread to think what approach they would have taken to sort these old murals/paintings out.

The sad thing is that unlike the Kar Seva Wale baba in India who have also destroyed much of our priceless heritage the Soho Road Jatha are well educated and as such they should have known that consultation and the involvement of conservation experts was a necessity.

There is still time for them to put right the shoddy work but as Amandeep Singh has mentioned Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh is in total denial. I hope the Soho Road Jatha wakes from their sleep and does what is right for the Sikh panth rather than just concentrating on preventing the Jathas reputation being tarnished. If Bhai Sahib thinks he is so right why does he not get a report commissioned by a team of known conservationist and then the whole panth can learn who is right and who is wrong. Current fact is that many conservationists who are known experts in this field have raised concerns. Bhai Sahib who was a Civil Engineer by trade denies it. Who would you believe ?

Amandeep Singh Madra has posted to highlighted the problems and I have posted his reply from another forum which clearly states reasons as to why the Soho Road Jatha work was shoddy. I have copied and pasted it below just incase it missed your attention.

"There was an outcry by experts in Punjab. Peopl who are word experts in concservation and achritectural historians. People like Patwant Singh tried extremely hard to get the GNNSJ to see that while the seva was welcome it shoudl be doen properly. Peter Poppham an incredibly well respected journalist from the Independant wrote a 1/2 page articel in 1999 titled "Brummies bodge Sikhs’ holy shrine" Peter Popham, 25 September 1999, The Independent. The BBC even carried an investigative piece on the contgroversy titled Gold Service with Dalji Dhaliwal.

Its the GNNSJ that is being pig-headed in not accepting that it is totally unnacceptable to remove the original plates whcih were crafted by Ranjit Singh's expert craftsmen and replace them with shoddy copies and it is not acceptable to plaster over centuries old wall paintings and it is not acceptable to leave the Darbar sahib with a really serious case of rising damp and it is not acceptable to put a 21st century rubber membrane on the roof of the builfding (not letting itr breathe and become increasingly damp) like it was some kind of dodgy indian extension in handsworth.

aman"

[Khalsa Fauji]

Bhai Mohinder Singh wsa given the opportunity of a reply during teh BBC documentary and his repsonse was that the GNNSJ had doen a perfect job and nothing was to change.

These are not new questions, Patwant Singh & world class conservation architects have been pleading for years to have the GNNSJ put right the damage that has been done but to no avail. If you cant respond to the world's experts on early punjbai buildings then the penny isnt going to drop by sending him an email is it?

The damage that is done is done - that cant be reveresed now. but the issue of water ingress can be stopped and the original plates can be returned. These are the absolute minimum requirements.

Aman

104688[/snapback]

Thank you for your response veer ji.

Perhaps the Soho Road wale will sort out the damp problems by getting a brummie expert on damp problems from the Yellow Pages and asking him to do a full damp proof course on the Harmandir Sahib using silicon injections.

To my brothers and sisters on this forum. The damage done by the gold plating bodge up is something that even the GOI failed to do during Bluestar. The Soho Road wale have started the process of destroying the Darbar Sahib though their misguided seva. With damp we will lose the paintings on the walls and eventually the current Darbar Sahib building. As veerji mentions this can be reversed if the Soho Road wale get off their back sides swallow their pride and consult experts. For some reason they are too proud to do this. A shame really as future generations will want to know how the Darbar Sahib building lost its original paintings etc and everyone will point fingers at Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh and Co.

I attach a few pictures of what the paintings on the upper storey staircase looked like earlier this year.

I would like to post the message veerji posted on tapoban as it highlights the damage done.

"There was an outcry by experts in Punjab. Peopl who are word experts in concservation and achritectural historians. People like Patwant Singh tried extremely hard to get the GNNSJ to see that while the seva was welcome it shoudl be doen properly. Peter Poppham an incredibly well respected journalist from the Independant wrote a 1/2 page articel in 1999 titled "Brummies bodge Sikhs’ holy shrine" Peter Popham, 25 September 1999, The Independent. The BBC even carried an investigative piece on the contgroversy titled Gold Service with Dalji Dhaliwal.

Its the GNNSJ that is being pig-headed in not accepting that it is totally unnacceptable to remove the original plates whcih were crafted by Ranjit Singh's expert craftsmen and replace them with shoddy copies and it is not acceptable to plaster over centuries old wall paintings and it is not acceptable to leave the Darbar sahib with a really serious case of rising damp and it is not acceptable to put a 21st century rubber membrane on the roof of the builfding (not letting itr breathe and become increasingly damp) like it was some kind of dodgy indian extension in handsworth.

aman"

104708[/snapback]

Gurfateh!!

This thread is funny, its shows the hypocrasy within the forum. Do you guys believe everything you read???

If you did then we'd all be rss, shiv sena follwers etc etc. Its funny how we select what we want to be true.

How many of you are qualified engineers, and have inspected the quality of repair??

Those pics you add veer ji have nothing to do with the work GNNSJ have completed.

Ok lets say GNNSJ didnt do the seva, who would have done?? And how much better would it have been??

Fact is no one, then Harmandir Sahib would have deteriorated. What about all the other Gurudwara's they are repairing which are in an immense state of repair. Whats the SGPC doing?? Leting our history rot?? is that what you guys want?

What you need to do is actually see the 'damage' learn a few things about engineering perhaps take a degree and then comment.

Otherwise why are so many people so afraid to ask Baba Ji, instead of assuming??

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!

[asmlondon]

I'm sorry that you find this thread funny - I think it's really serious. I do have an Engineering Degree but this is actually a question for a conservation architect not an engineer.

Look, in heritage & religious terms the Darbar Sahib is a precious jewel, a vitally important and beautiful living monument. From a purely historical and heritage perspective we have to be incredibly sensitive when making interventions to the buildings. Of course no -one wants to see it rot - that is an entirely stupid thing to say. The building did have issues prior to hte seva, but the work that was done by the jaths has cuased enourous problems which are ultimately destroying the building from the inside. At the very least this shoudl be acknowledged or indeed an independant expert shoudl be bought into verify this and propose a way forword. Whilt I am confident that this is indeed the case (and I am sure that you take a contrary view) the SGPC/GNNSJ should at the very least commission this. It is all a folly becuase the recognised world's expert on Historical Punjabi architecture (and someone that was recently awarded an honour by UNESCO for consevration work on a gurdwara in Gujerat) has already raised her serious concerns about the way that the work was carried out.

there is a second much more serious issue to address and that is the question of the original copper plates. What gives the jatha the right to rip these off the building and replace them with copies? these plates need to be recovered, conserved professionally and replaced onto the building. These were the work of countless artisans commissioned by Maharajah Ranjit Singh and the work was the very epitome of the art of guilded copper work. Its amazing that th worlds sikh community has allowed a group to literally debase the building by unthoughfully removing these.

Again, I cant believ you find this funny . . . but that explais a lot doesnt it

aman

[kurtas]

Bhai Mohinder Singh wsa given the opportunity of a reply during teh BBC documentary and his repsonse was that the GNNSJ had doen a perfect job and nothing was to change.

These are not new questions, Patwant Singh & world class conservation architects have been pleading for years to have the GNNSJ put right the damage that has been done but to no avail. If you cant respond to the world's experts on early punjbai buildings then the penny isnt going to drop by sending him an email is it?

The damage that is done is done - that cant be reveresed now. but the issue of water ingress can be stopped and the original plates can be returned. These are the absolute minimum requirements.

Aman

104688[/snapback]

Thank you for your response veer ji.

Perhaps the Soho Road wale will sort out the damp problems by getting a brummie expert on damp problems from the Yellow Pages and asking him to do a full damp proof course on the Harmandir Sahib using silicon injections.

To my brothers and sisters on this forum. The damage done by the gold plating bodge up is something that even the GOI failed to do during Bluestar. The Soho Road wale have started the process of destroying the Darbar Sahib though their misguided seva. With damp we will lose the paintings on the walls and eventually the current Darbar Sahib building. As veerji mentions this can be reversed if the Soho Road wale get off their back sides swallow their pride and consult experts. For some reason they are too proud to do this. A shame really as future generations will want to know how the Darbar Sahib building lost its original paintings etc and everyone will point fingers at Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh and Co.

I attach a few pictures of what the paintings on the upper storey staircase looked like earlier this year.

I would like to post the message veerji posted on tapoban as it highlights the damage done.

"There was an outcry by experts in Punjab. Peopl who are word experts in concservation and achritectural historians. People like Patwant Singh tried extremely hard to get the GNNSJ to see that while the seva was welcome it shoudl be doen properly. Peter Poppham an incredibly well respected journalist from the Independant wrote a 1/2 page articel in 1999 titled "Brummies bodge Sikhs’ holy shrine" Peter Popham, 25 September 1999, The Independent. The BBC even carried an investigative piece on the contgroversy titled Gold Service with Dalji Dhaliwal.

Its the GNNSJ that is being pig-headed in not accepting that it is totally unnacceptable to remove the original plates whcih were crafted by Ranjit Singh's expert craftsmen and replace them with shoddy copies and it is not acceptable to plaster over centuries old wall paintings and it is not acceptable to leave the Darbar sahib with a really serious case of rising damp and it is not acceptable to put a 21st century rubber membrane on the roof of the builfding (not letting itr breathe and become increasingly damp) like it was some kind of dodgy indian extension in handsworth.

aman"

104708[/snapback]

Gurfateh!!

This thread is funny, its shows the hypocrasy within the forum. Do you guys believe everything you read???

If you did then we'd all be rss, shiv sena follwers etc etc. Its funny how we select what we want to be true.

How many of you are qualified engineers, and have inspected the quality of repair??

Those pics you add veer ji have nothing to do with the work GNNSJ have completed.

Ok lets say GNNSJ didnt do the seva, who would have done?? And how much better would it have been??

Fact is no one, then Harmandir Sahib would have deteriorated. What about all the other Gurudwara's they are repairing which are in an immense state of repair. Whats the SGPC doing?? Leting our history rot?? is that what you guys want?

What you need to do is actually see the 'damage' learn a few things about engineering perhaps take a degree and then comment.

Otherwise why are so many people so afraid to ask Baba Ji, instead of assuming??

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!

104906[/snapback]

Carry on laughing. Strange how people find it funny that our religious heritage is being destroyed. I bet people with your mentality had fits of laughter when they saw the destruction caused to the Akal Takht after Bluestar.

If you read the thread carefully I have stated various times that noted experts on conservation/restoration have voiced their opinions. Being an engineer is not a necessity to form an opinion based on what EXPERTS have said. The FACT is that the Soho Road Jatha did not consult with experts, Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh may be a Civil Engineer but that does not make him an expert in restoration/conservation etc. This is the Harmandir Sahib we are talking about and not an extension to a house in Handsworth !

If someone requires a knee operation you dont get a dentist to perform it. You get an surgeon who knows what he is doing. Similarly if you want a filling doing you get a dentist and not a surgeon. Same as above if you want to restore/preserve you get experts in this area not a Civil Engineer from Handsworth.

As for those pictures they are from the Darbar Sahib near the roof area and clearly illustrate that damp can damage the walls and this destroys the paintwork. Perhaps this is too much for you to understand when you are laughing. The roof membrane was replaced without consulting experts so how you know that this has not led to the damage caused in the photos. It also highlights the other point about doing seva to grab attention. Why did the Soho Roade Jatha not look at the interior and do seva for that ?

What was so wrong with the old plates ? Had the copper corroded ? Could the old plates have been repaired/ re-guilded. Well thanks to the Soho Road Jatha we will never know.

Restoration experts raised this subject before the Jatha started its quick finish seva but as is the case now Bhai Sahib Mohinder Singh ignored everyone and got his low skilled workforce in asap.

[Panth Da Nimana Nitana Sevadar]

Kurtas, reading your replies, it seems to me as though ur the expert in conservation and restoration.

If I was to tell you that the Darshani Deory of Harimander Sahib was about to collape, how would you react? Well this was the case.

You can have confirmation of this report from the SGPC.

[Khalsa Fauji]

I'm sorry that you find this thread funny - I think it's really serious. I do have an Engineering Degree but this is actually a question for a conservation architect not an engineer.

Look, in heritage & religious terms the Darbar Sahib is a precious jewel, a vitally important and beautiful living monument. From a purely historical and heritage perspective we have to be incredibly sensitive when making interventions to the buildings. Of course no -one wants to see it rot - that is an entirely stupid thing to say. The building did have issues prior to hte seva, but the work that was done by the jaths has cuased enourous problems which are ultimately destroying the building from the inside. At the very least this shoudl be acknowledged or indeed an independant expert shoudl be bought into verify this and propose a way forword. Whilt I am confident that this is indeed the case (and I am sure that you take a contrary view) the SGPC/GNNSJ should at the very least commission this. It is all a folly becuase the recognised world's expert on Historical Punjabi architecture (and someone that was recently awarded an honour by UNESCO for consevration work on a gurdwara in Gujerat) has already raised her serious concerns about the way that the work was carried out.

there is a second much more serious issue to address and that is the question of the original copper plates. What gives the jatha the right to rip these off the building and replace them with copies? these plates need to be recovered, conserved professionally and replaced onto the building. These were the work of countless artisans commissioned by Maharajah Ranjit Singh and the work was the very epitome of the art of guilded copper work. Its amazing that th worlds sikh community has allowed a group to literally debase the building by unthoughfully removing these.

Again, I cant believ you find this funny . .  . but that explais a lot doesnt it

aman

104911[/snapback]

Gurfateh!!

Veer Ji please do not misinterprate what im saying. The restoration seva is not a laughing matter, what i was finding amusing is the debates on this thread, please bear in mind this is a Sikh youth/sangat forum. Its very easy to spread accounts on this site and to make people believe.

As many people have mentioned, this issue would be far better dicussed with those involved and perhaps noted and then posted.

Bhai Sahib Bhai Mohinder Singh Ji is a civil engineer, but this information is for all on here. Just because they are a qualified engineer do not think it was them who made plans or designed anything. Also they did ensure that the most qualified persons they could find from all over india, were employed on a good salary and did an excellent job. These people otherwise had no source of a decent income and this seva allowed thses people to earn money honestly. They made sure they reproduced to their best ability all of the panels that were replaced. If one was to see the original panel you would find that it would be no point in replacing them.

What a lot of people are forgetting is that these copper panels guilding in gold, are not as religious as you are making out. They were produced in the time of Maharaja Ranjt Singh Ji by some of the best craftsmen of the time. Before this the Gurudawara Sahib was still beautiful. It is not the gold and marble that makes it so.

It was inevitable that over time these panels would be in state of repair. Some were extremely damaged during 84. What is wrong with creating new ones??? For example lets say a timber made door cracks over time. Its possible to fill the crack with wood filler but in the long run its worth replacing the door with a brand new one that would remain far longer.

These people who have won awards by UNESCO or whatever, where were they when Sri Harmandir Sahib needed repair??? Dont you think its funny how a lot of these people sprung up afterwards. So again GNNSJ has started something good, now there are so many more people than ever before who are looking after the state of Gurdwareh. Why can't they all work together instead of criticising afterwards.

At the end of the day GNNSJ has done an amazing job overall. Its not like they have ever reject help from anyone else, do not think for one moment that they are on a one man mission because they are not. Do not think they are doing these seva's to raise their profile because they are not. There are so many seva's that they are doing that so many of us have no idea about. Its extremely easy to be a critic, but if those people all shared their thought then there would be a far better job.

Im not a spokesperson for the jatha so don't quote me as answering for them. If you still wish to find out more Aman veer ji, you are educated why dont you go and visit Bhai Sahib Ji they would be more than happy to talk to you and listen to your suggestion, step forward don't sit on the net complaining. We need educated people like yourself to move the panth forward, not so we sit and do nindiya.

Bhul Chuk Maaf!

Gurfateh!!