Ego

[randip singh]

If we don't know the bad side to something, how do we know the good?

I know bhaji, i dont get what are you trying to say.

My point is we cannot perceive Kaam krodh lobh moh Haankar without the five senses or the mind. Sometimes in gurbani it is mentioned 10 senses also for all the other feelings, i suppose.

is it

5 Vices -->(gives rise to) uncontrolled 5 senses.

or

Uncontrolled Mind ---> gives rise to 5 Vices?

I think Without the mind the 5 vices cant exist for us.

So I think it makes sense to attack the origin which is the mind and control it - Control the mind so that it can't create the 5 vices.

I think we can only control the cause and not the effect. Ego is the effect of the mind(mind is the cause) and not a cause in itself i think.

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I think what Guruji is saying is the God has given us a free mind. We can dwell in self or selflessness.

If we go towards waheguru we move closer towards selfnessness, and that helps us subdue the self. I don't think we can destroy self, since it was created by God, who created our mind (and everything else). That would mean destroying God, However, if we move towards god we are opened to ways to subdue it (since he was the one that created it in the first place), he has the answer.

Does that makes sense.

I love the Sufic story about the man who boasted to everyone at how he had destroyed his egotism. The sufi said to him, isn't that egotism in itself boasting how you have destroyed your egotism.

Always makes me laugh.

The Guru Granth Sahib ji says exactly the same.

[Harmeet Singh]

randip bhaji I think self and Haumey are different. One can define ego according to his own self if it doesnt mean haumey to him.

but my point is haumey has to de destroyed not selflessness.

[humble_kaur]

Once you merge with God, you have no identity. Are you saying when you are one with God, that you still have a sense of self?

Baba Kabir Ji himself wanted death of his own identity, of his own self, of his ego. He said dying is pleasing to me, please let me die.

kbIr ijsu mrny qy jgu frY myry min Awnµdu ]

Kabir, the world is afraid of death – that death fills my mind with bliss.

mrny hI qy pweIAY pUrnu prmwnµdu ]22]

It is only by death that perfect, supreme bliss is obtained.

Supreme bliss, meaning the Supreme Lord, is only obtained by death. Not death of the physical body, but death of ones own identity, ones sense of self, ones ego. Because what are we but a slave of our ego.

hau ivic AwieAw hau ivic gieAw ]

In ego they come, and in ego they go.

hau ivic jMimAw hau ivic muAw ]

In ego they are born, and in ego they die.

Our entire existence is centered on our ego. The Guru tells us that we can only realize God once we rid ourselves of our ego. That is why Baba Kabir Ji says that I am not afraid of this death of me, of my ego, but instead eagerly await for that moment to arrive so that I can be one with my Lord.

kbIr muih mrny kw cwau hY mrau q hir kY duAwr ]

Kabir, I long to die; let me die at the Lord’s Door.

mq hir pUCY kaunu hY prw hmwrY bwr ]61]

I hope that the Lord does not ask, “Who is this, lying at my door?”

Once we reach the Lord's Door, our ego vanishes. Kabir says, when he reaches the Lord’s Door, he does not want to be asked “Who is this, lying at my door?” If we still maintained a sense of self, then how can we be one with God? Kabir did not want to be seen because the sight of him would mean that he is still separate from God. This separation, this sense of self, how is it possible? If a person merges with God, then they will become one with Him, how will it be possible if there is still ego within us? As Kabir goes on to say, what if my Lord asks who I am? What answer will I give him? That this is your humble servant Kabir? This means that Kabir is still alive. That Kabir still has his own separate identity. But Kabir says no, that is not my case. The day he becomes a Brahm Gyani, there will be no I or me left in him; there is no ego, there is no self.

There cannot be God and then be me. There is only God alone. Even the Guru’s never called themselves Brahm Gyanis, Sadhs, Sants. They did not have those attachments to their names. They represented the Jot they carried inside them. All the Gurus are from one Jot. The Guru’s names were mere identities of their physical being, not their soul. If each of them maintained a sense of self, then how can they be one?

Real inner strength comes when we remember that it is God who is acting, and not the self. The self is powerless to act without God’s command. If we destroy our ego, we destroy fear, hatred, pride and covertness. These things cannot exist without the ego. So once this is gone, there is nothing to stop you. There is a fine line between self-esteem and pride and humility. You can be humble and still be strong. Everything is in God’s Will. It says in Gurbani that all that exists is God. It is clear ego is one of the five vices, a part of maya that makes us think we are separate from God. When you remove sense of self, then and only then is when you can see God.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

p.s. I used the a few lines out of a Sukhmani Sahib lesson that was forwarded to me by someone more knowledgable. There was also an analogy that I thought that is worth sharing.

When a river flows, ie Ganga, it has its own identity and characteristics. When that river flows into the Indian Ocean, it loses it identity. It no longer has the same characteristics, the self, it once had. Why? Because now it it part of a bigger ocean, whose depth is immeasurable. The same way with us, once we merge with God into His Depth which is immeasurable, we have no self or identity. We become one. No one can say that is the river, and no one can say that is so n so; the river has become one with ocean, and we have become one God.

[humble_kaur]

The problem here is the definition of the word Hankaar. It does not mean just Ego. Also the context of the use of the word ego is used has to be checked. Guruji is refering to Hankaar, which is FALSE self pride, egotism, NOT self esteem as you have stated

I have been into great lengths, and long discussion about this before, and the conclusion has been that Guruji is talking about control of the 5 vices and NOT destruction..

What you are saying is kill self esteem.

Still not destruction of the or killing the Ego what Sikhism talks about but control of it!

To kill is easy, but to control it far more difficult.

Destroying one's ego would lead to low self worth and self esteem and result in mental problems.

I think the problems we have here are translations of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, because there are no precise words for the Punjabi counterpart.

haumai comes from hum or me.......thinking me, me all the time. The word Ego refers to two parts, one self esteem, the other exagerated self importance.

What Guruji is saying is route out the self importance (Haum) or me, me ,me, and subdue it, not the self esteem.

Use www.srigranth.org............and I suggest you carefully work through all the translations and type in the word control.

As the first master says:

Page 155, Line 16 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Let the five passions be disciples under your control, O begging Yogi, and make this mind your walking stick. ||1||

panch chaylay vas keejeh raaval ih man keejai dandaataa. ||1||

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If you can only see God, then what use is self esteem? Self esteem only works in ego to make you feel worth something. The Ego is worth nothing. Only God is everything.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Harmeet Singh]

thas also a good point

[Khalsa_Girl_1]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

ok....*cough cough*

but i believe that some people dont know the difference between having ego, and being proud.

(just to let you know.)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

[Harmeet Singh]

thas the same thing khalsa girl, i believe. when has guru sahib said i am proud to be a Guru etc...

I would like your comments humble kaur bhenji, I am also lil confused. I do think you are right and haumey should be killed.

I believe we can define self in various ways if it generates I-ness I think it is not self, but if only generates waheguru it is waheguru. lets take a look at some of the shabds.

what i mean by realizing self is "has our mind realized our soul?" And soul is waheguru so there shouldnt be any ego or I ness then.

But I think the way we say it also has some ego/haumey in it.

Nanak cheenai aap kayu so apar apaaraa: O Nanak, one who knows his own Self, is Infinite and Incomparable (sggs 229).

Sachaa teerath jit sar naavan gurmukh aapi bujhaae: True is that place of pilgrimage, where one bathes in the pool of Truth, and achieves Self-realization by becoming a Gurmukh (Spiritual Being). The Gurmukh understands his own Self (sggs 753).

Chet suchet chit hoyi rahu tayu lai pargaas ujaaraa: When you are conscious in your Consciousness, you will be Enlightened and Illuminated (sggs 339).

Now in all these shabds guru sahib is telling us to realize our self, but what is self? As I tried to think earlier I believe he is talking to mind realizing the soul. lets see other shabads

Badfailee gaibaanaa khasam na jaanaee.....: The foolish demon, who does evil deeds, does not know God. Call him a mad-man, if he does not understand the Self (sggs 142).

Jin aatam tat na cheeniyaa; Sabh fokat dharma abeeniyaa: Whoever does not gain the knowledge of the Self, all his religious acts are vain and blind (sggs 1351).

So obviously I think you are right that if "self" is just realizing mind it is not what guru sahib is telling us to realize.

Aap pachhanai boojhai soi: He who recognizes his Self comprehends God (sggs 25).

Jan Nanak bin aapaa cheenai mitai na bhram ki kaayee: Say Nanak, without realizing the Self, the moss of doubts (ignorance of the Self) can not be eradicated (sggs 684).

So bayuraa jo aap na pachaanai. Aap pacchaanai ta eko jaanai: Man is crazy wihtout Self-realization. When he knows the Self, only then he comes to know the One God

So if we are relizing God or soul that is self according to guru sahib and not the usual which we descrie or feel.

Me moorakh can understand this much..

[randip singh]

The problem here is the definition of

If you can only see God, then what use is self esteem?  Self esteem only works in ego to make you feel worth something.  The Ego is worth nothing.  Only God is everything.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

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If you have no self worth then why be bothered about anything?

Why care? Why do anything? Caring for others and thinking other people are worthwhile comes from within. This is exactly what Guru Gobind Singh ji did.

He gave 5 poor illiterate downtrodden people self worth.

You've also missed the point that Hankaar is not Ego but Egotism.....two seperate concepts.

[randip singh]

randip bhaji I think self and Haumey are different. One can define ego according to his own self if it doesnt mean haumey to him.

but my point is haumey has to de destroyed  not selflessness.

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thinkking about oneself or self or me, me , me is Haumey. That is exactly what it is. Only to be concerened about yourself. Bloated pride and egotism.

[humble_kaur]

I would like your comments humble kaur bhenji, I am also lil confused. I do think you are right and haumey should be killed.

I believe we can define self in various ways if it generates I-ness I think it is not self, but if only generates waheguru it is waheguru. lets take a look at some of the shabds.

what i mean by realizing self is "has our mind realized our soul?" And soul is waheguru so there shouldnt be any ego or I ness then.

But I think the way we say it also has some ego/haumey in it.

Sorry Harmeet Veer Ji, it took me a while to respond. I am still trying to understand the whole concept of Gurbani. As Randip Veer Ji stated, it all has to do with how one interprets Gurbani. Forgive me if my interpretation is incorrect, for I am still a manmukh.

The Gurbani says there is One God and He is within you — He is your own Self. The purpose of human life is to know and understand this realm of Truth within the body while alive, here and now, so that we can free ourselves from ignorance, falsehood and selfishness into the state of selflessness, spontaneity and perfection in life. The Gurbani urges us to become Gurmukh and live the Divine Life. We should make truthful living the core of our daily life. We should make the selfless service to the world our prayer. We should be compassionate, and show mercy for all living beings and make loving the people around us the greatest devotion. We should lead our life through Divine Knowledge under the veil of humility, and develop contentment within us. We should realize that the Self in me is the Self in all, it is the One. If we can obtain all this, then we can enjoy the true Anand while living in the body.

The more a man becomes attached to spirituality/God the more he tries to explore and understand his own self. When the Guru talks about our soul or spirituality, he speaks of recognizing and understanding our own sense of self.

mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Awpxw mUlu pCwxu ]

O my mind, you are the embodiment of the Divine Light – recognize your own origin.

We are a combination of two things: the body and soul. Our mind and soul are one entity. Mind is that part of our self, our soul, which allows us to realize and understand our entirety. This combo of body and mind is a structural order in which the Lord has created us. When our mind is filled with haumai, we, our ego, speaks, rather than God speaking.

iksY n bdY Awip AhMkwrI]

One who thinks of no one else except his own prideful self

True wisdom is Love of the Self. Therefore, a Gurmukh always aspires for higher values in life such as Self- integration, Self-purification, and Self-development. We want to end this ego that causes ignorance and pain of doubt within, acting like a veil of ignorance between man and God.

Awpu pCwxY bUJY soie]

He who realizes his Self comprehends God.

gurmuiK JgVu cukwieEnu ieko riv rihAw]

The Gurmukh is free of conflict and strife, and sees the One Lord, pervading everywhere.

AMqir AigAwn duKu Brmu hY ivic pVdw dUir peIAwis]

There is ignorance and pain of doubt within, like a separating veil between the man and God.

kUVhu kry ivxwsu Drmy qgIAY]

Spiritually, one is destroyed through falsehood; through righteousness, one prospers.

mnu vis dUqw durmiq doie]

The mind is in the control of evil passions, evil intent, and duality.

We ask ourselves these questions:

mnu mYlw scu inrmlw ikau kir imilAw jwie]

The mind is impure; but the True Lord is pure. So how can it merge into Him?

mnu mrY Dwqu mir jwie]ibnu mn mUey kYsy hir pwie]

When the mind is conquered, its turbulent wanderings are stopped. Without conquering the mind, how can God be found?

The answer to these questions are:

min jIqY jgu jIqu]

If you conquer the mind, you conquer the material world.

God dwells within us. He is in our Aatmaan, the Self. His Light resides within all beings just as the fragrance resides in the flower, We, human beings are the Divine creation. We are suffering because we fail to realize This Truth, and our ignorance keeps us attached to this world, this maya. The only way we can realize This Truth is through meditation on God’s name.

mn qUM joiq srUpu hY Apxw mUlu pCwxu]

O mind, you are God's True Image, know your Reality.

Twkuru srby smwxw ]

The Lord is all-pervading everywhere.

The Self is never born, never grows up, never decays, and never dies. The Self is God.

jo dIsY so qyrw rUp]

Whatever is seen, O Lord, is Your form.

mnu BUlau smJis swc nwie]

Deluded mind actualizes its True Nature through meditation on God's Name.

The Self, Pure Consciousness, is the only source of happiness, not external objects. We are repeatedly told by Gurbani to give up egotism/falsehood. To realize this Truth, the purpose of Gurbani is to end ego.

Ksmu pCwin qrs kir jIA mih mwir mxI kir PikI]

Recognize Your Lord, and fear Him within your heart; conquer your egotism, and make it worthless.

The term Sikh implies to a person who is a learner, who is set on the path of spiritual perfection and self-realization but who has not yet fully realised the Self, who has not yet found the Truth in entirety. When a Sikh reaches the final goal and ceases to act with his ego, he becomes a Singh/Singhni, the perfected one.

The following are a few shabads that I found inspiration from:

imiQAw qnu Dnu kutMbu sbwieAw ]

False are body, wealth, and all relations.

imiQAw haumY mmqw mwieAw ]

False are ego, possessiveness and Maya.

imiQAw rwj jobn Dn mwl ]

False are power, youth, wealth and property.

imiQAw kwm k®oD ibkrwl ]

False are sexual desire and wild anger.

imiQAw DRoh moh AiBmwnu ]

False are deception, emotional attachment and egotistical pride.

imiQAw Awps aUpir krq gumwnu ]

False are pride and self-conceit.

AsiQru Bgiq swD kI srn ]

Only devotional worship is permanent, and the Sanctuary of the Holy.

nwnk jip jip jIvY hir ky crn ]4]

Nanak lives by meditating, meditating on the Lotus Feet of the Lord. ||4||

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.

gur kY igRih syvku jo rhY ]

That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru's household,

gur kI AwigAw mn mih shY ]

is to obey the Guru's Commands with all his mind.

Awps kau kir kCu n jnwvY ]

He is not to call attention to himself in any way.

hir hir nwmu irdY sd iDAwvY ]

He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord.

mnu bycY siqgur kY pwis ]

One who sells his mind to the True Guru

iqsu syvk ky kwrj rwis ]

- that humble servant's affairs are resolved.

syvw krq hoie inhkwmI ]

One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward,

iqs kau hoq prwpiq suAwmI ]

shall attain his Lord and Master.

ApnI ik®pw ijsu Awip kryie ]

He Himself grants His Grace;

nwnk so syvku gur kI miq lyie ]2]

O Nanak, that selfless servant lives the Guru's Teachings. ||2||

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.

jnu lwgw hir eykY nwie ]

The Lord's humble servant is committed to His Name.

iqs kI Aws n ibrQI jwie ]

His hopes do not go in vain.

syvk kau syvw bin AweI ]

The servant's purpose is to serve;

hukmu bUiJ prm pdu pweI ]

obeying the Lord's Command, the supreme status is obtained.

ies qy aUpir nhI bIcwru ]

Beyond this, he has no other thought.

jw kY min bisAw inrMkwru ]

Within his mind, the Formless Lord abides.

bMDn qoir Bey inrvYr ]

His bonds are cut away, and he becomes free of hatred.

Anidnu pUjih gur ky pYr ]

Night and day, he worships the Feet of the Guru.

ieh lok suKIey prlok suhyly ]

He is at peace in this world, and happy in the next.

nwnk hir pRiB Awpih myly ]4]

O Nanak, the Lord God unites him with Himself. ||4||

Bhul Chuk Maaf