Sikhi And Capitilism

[sLiEnFiTsItSeTr]

Hello everybody,

I have a few questions on sikhi and its stance towards a modern enitity, capitilism:

When Sikhi emerged we can say with confidence that it emerged in the midst of the Indian Medieval ages (a time of continous political turmoil). Sikhi also emerged before the arrival of modern capitilism. (India experienced the full revolutionary strength of capitilism after the colonization of India by the British---Introduction of the East India company, and various other trading companies).

Now,

In Medieval India we had a pre-capitilistic society in which the ruthless acquisition of goods was permitted AND was bound to NO ethical norms whatsoever.

(lots of crime: cheating, fraud and larceny were all common modes of aquiring capital)

I am assuming with confidence that our guru's were also against these ruthless acquisition processes.

With the emergeance of Capitlism all this changed dramatically, Lawfullness greatly increased and we get the implementation of modern laws that started to protect the "corporation" (both good and bad...I guess).

My question now lies;

What is the Sikhi position with respect to Capitlism and the modern Corporation?

(a corporation is an enitity that is solely centered on profiteering)Is the legal acquisition of goods permitted within Sikhi? or is a sikh not permitted to attain too much capital?

(Should we be allowed to enjoy the fruits of our own labour or is this wrong?)

AND

What FORCE should motivate us (AS SIKHS) to accumalate capital to ensure our physical survival?

--> Should it be Maya (A word that is --- very unpopular amongst sikhs) or something else?

....note if you pick something else then I would like to know what it is?cheers.

[japmans]

you see, that's very noble, really, a very nice thought.

but is it even logical?

Capitalism has become what our society is based upon. try changing it, and that's where the fall of our world as we know it will begin.

it's one thing to hate on capitalism...it's another thing to have a solution.

Marx thought he had a solution... he thought it would work, too!

what happened? extreme cases of poverty. no trade with other countries. monotonous products, no diversity, people having less skills based on inabilities to understand other cultures.

you gotta understand that the power of the internet lies within capitalism. you ain't learnin all this fancy schmancy knowledge if you live in some communist land. the internet, firstly, would be way too expensive for you to access...

you, and i, and john, and jack, and mohammed, and Wang Xi live our american lifestyles because of capitalism... it's a noble thoguht that eveyrone can have the same standard of living, the same fruitful lives, so on, so forth.

but trying to live an anti-capitalist lifestyle in a totally-capitalist society isn't noble..it's stupid! it's not practical, it's much too costly, and you would have the toughest time mkaing ends meet if you chose only to buy food produced in canada... only to buy chlothing made in canada.... only to buy coffee from starbucks that were grown with fair-trade beans (if you can even buy from starbucks).... i mean... capitalism has grown as a result of trade and interdependence of countries.

Agreed, Nike has done more bad for the global society than good. but not every corporation has done this.. Microsoft has contributed much good to our Indian societies, encouraging technology growth and education.

"oh, well microoft is so rich, they should be doing more"

even in a communist society, you're gonna wanna make as much freaking cash as you can... money is still the root of your survival.. you still need to BUY a roof over you head... you still need to BUY clothing to keep you warm... you still n eed to BUY food so that you can nourish your body... and you're gonna wanna meet THESE needs as best as possible so that you can divulge in some luxuries too.

Singhavelli...would Western have bowling nights in a communist society? ESPECIALLY if every society in the world was communist? I definitely doubt it... i don't know if there would be enough monetary supply to justify such an event.

Yes, it's agreed, Our western world has grown.... it has also probably grown at the expense of other societies... yet at the same time, in the information age, it was the Eastern world that decided to stay with their old school ways, refusing to adopt tractors and stuff, and insisting on keeping their handhel ploughs for their farms.

It was the choice of the eastern society to remain a largely agrarian society... I mean, no one can say "the Eastern World was always poor", cuz coming from an indian background, we know this ot be false. India, at one point, was a land of riches, and could have been again had they made the move to an industrial society back when it was proposed orginally.

Know that sayin "as you sow, so shall you reap"... wlel this is actually a direct analogy... india, and other such nations, continued to grow land with their oldschool methodologies, while most of the western world adopted new processes and new methods, and look where it's led to.. contious innovation/improvement in our societies to the point where, hell, i sure can't complain about the life i live, and what i've been given! and i doubt that you can too.

it's so EASY to think high and noble "we need to rid the world of capitalism".... yet people don't understand what they'd hafta give up, especially in the short run.

honestly, while a small group of people is buying homegrown goods, maybe selling their medium-sized house for a smaller house to make ends meet, trying to make a political statement to the rest of the contry, the rest of the coutnry is buying a bigger house, new clothes, and new cars....

It's easy to pinpoint the Corporatinos as the evil entities of the world.. i'm in no way saying that corporations are amazing and that they rock, but i think sometimes they get an unfair shake in the whole scheme of things....alottttt of companies out there contirbute to society both locally and abroad, but all we can say is "it's not enough".

Countries like India would not be making the advancements that it actually is without the foreign investment that has come from our North American corporations. Sme goes with China... You've gotta start somewhere, and yes, there is an extreme. Nike's sweatshops and GAP's sweatshops were the extremes, but low-paying jobs for these societies is a whole hell of a lot better than the "no jobs" that plagued those societies in the past.

everything happens ins strides.... we're gonna have a world with ONLY MNC's... we gotta recognize that.. but it's actually gonna better our world.... one day, the Indian corps will be just as strong as our north american ones.... i mean....10 years ago, would you have ever suggested that a South Korean Telecom Company would outbid NORTEL for a contract in los angeles?

It's a slow process people.. but it's a process nevertheless.. you ain't gonna make it to sachkhand by goin through a few malas in your lifetime... but do a few malas each month, increase that to a few malas every day, then you're obviously increasing your chances, and it'll still be a slow process, but one day, something will happen...sometihng big will happen, and youll feel the glow.... same ways with the world and its socieities.. slowly, help has come in the form of investmnet, and it's getting better..at the very least, jobs exist now in societies that jobs fdidn't exist before.... that's someting to be proud of....

[sLiEnFiTsItSeTr]

What about the legitimate corporation.....the law abiding corporations....the unionized corporations......what is the sikhi reaction to this.....

thats fine take you time to reply to the question....they are very broad i understand and reqire alot of input....for that i apologize.....but you didnt explain the ALTERNATIVES TO CAPITILSIM.

Other modes of production have undoubtedly failed

[sLiEnFiTsItSeTr]

thankyou Japman for you input,

but it really didnt address any of the questions i just put forth????

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

Good topic and good questions in relation to them. If we want to discuss this topic from a Sikhi viewpoint and the stance of Sikhi on subjects such as capitalism then the first thing we must understand is Sikhi itself.

Sikhi is a lifestyle, a way of living. This lifestyle is learned from the guru, by reading and understanding gurbani. Now one of the first things we are taught is "Karta Purakh", meaning god Himself is the Supreme Creator of everything and He resides in every bit of that Creation. That being said nothing in this universe is inherently evil or wrong in itself. If God has created something there is a definite reason behind it. He does not create anything which is detrimental or harmful to us. It is only the way in which man chooses to use those things which can be wrong or harmful. It is only when we fail to realizy WHY He has created that thing and use that thing for our own individual selifsh benefits that the thign becomes harmful to us rather than a good thing for us.

This holds true with everything in our life, including the social system in which we may live. In our case it is capitalism. Now capitalism on its own isnt rooted in evil. It was envisioned as a society where each person was entitled to be rewarded based on how hard he or she worked. If someone devotes 10 extra years to schooling, or spends extra 30hours a week working overtime why shouldnt that person be rewarded for their extra efforts? This goal to reward ppl based on individual merit is great! In fact it is supported by the teachings of Sikhi. HOwever, when people (be they individuals or coporations) became selfish they began to take advantage of this system and exploit others. After working hard they began to use the increased wealth they gather to exploit those with less means and power. While this system came bout with good intentions, obviously it is not perfect and has some ohter shortfalls as well. Some people by chance are born into environments where they never get opportunities to study, or get chances to show their talents and thus remain marginalized merely due to their unlucky birht into that particular pocket of society. Pure capitalism affords no avenue for equal opportunity for such ppl

On the other hand the polar opposite of capitalism, communism, isnt wrapped in any sort of evil or harmful objective either. It was envisioned as a society where everyone would be treated equally and fairly regardless of where they were or what they did. Thus no matter what occupation one did, what kind of schooling they had, they would be paid in accordance to meet their daily needs of sustenance (food, shelter, clothing etc.). Thus chance for ppl to become extremely wealthy and exploit less advantaged ppl was reduced. However again, this system was not perfect in itself for ppl still found loopholes in it. The work being done in such a society was not far less or miniscule compared to purely capitalistic societies. And any where there is work done, services rendered, there will revenue/profit collected from that. This created a dillema since the profit was envisioned to be spread amongst everyone equally, those in power decided to give everyone very small amounts, albeit it was still equal to everyone in general. The extra left over they kept for themselves and thus also became powerful and rich as the elites of capitalistic society and used this power to exploit the less advantaged. Furthermore, because communism tend to hinder the axiom of u shall reap what u sow, n changes it into u shall reap only what we give u, it strangles the spirit of creativity and enthusiams of the average person crating a stranglehold on the growth and expression of the self and community.

Now while both systems, were born with good intentions, both have failed because of one key central concept. They both failed to incorporate any spiritual element in them. Spirituality is akin to a permament, universal safegaurd where all shall be treated with fairness, compassion and love with no loophole for any form of exploitation or oppression. For a sikh this spirituality stems from the guru, gurbani.

Guru Granth Sahib is the character building ground of a Sikh in which are firmly rooted his/her ethical values to run the daily affairs. It emphasizes the importance of gun (virtues), and obviously disengaging from any known vices in the society.

nwnk Aaugux jyqVy qyqy glI jMjIr ]

jy gux hoin q ktIAin sy BweI sy vIr ]

AgY gey n mMnIAin mwir kFhu vypIr ]4]1]

" All the vices that we have are like chains around our neck. Virtues, however, are our real friends as they are the ones, which help us to cut the chains of all our vices. There is no recognition of these vices in the next world. It is better to throw these Guru-less creatures."

In the following hymn the need to develop virtues of contentment, humility and love in order to achieve Union with God Almighty are beautifully described:

" mnu hwlI ikrswxI krxI srmu pwxI qnu Kyqu ]

nwmu bIju sMqoKu suhwgw rKu grIbI vysu ]

Bwau krm kir jMmsI sy Gr BwgT dyKu ] 1 ] "

"Let your mind be the farmer, and good deeds the farming; and let your body be the farm; your hard work be the water; Let the sweet remembrance of God Almighty be the seed; and contentment the furrowing and let humility be the fence. And by the Grace of God the seed will sprout and will give birth to devotional Love. Fortunate are those homes, where such a situation exists."

So how does this all tie in with the discussion of capitalism? Well captilasim runs on the foundation of business. Be it the business of a single person or a large company, and be it the business of large scale electronics manufacturing and sales or backyard farm of fruits and vegetables. For a sikh to live in a society of capitalism is not wrong, neither is it against sikhi. A sikh merely needs to ensure his actions and dealings within that capitalistic framework are in accordance with the teachings of Sikhi (ie. love, fairness, equality, tolerance).

Therefore, on the basis of the above-mentioned short discussion on virtues, a Sikh businessperson, is duty bound to make sure that his or her business ethics do not conflict with the value system of his/her religion. ‘Truthfulness’ comes first in a long list of business ethics one should follow. According to our Scriptures:

" schu ErY sBu ko aupir scu Awcwru ] 5 ]"

" Truth, the Absolute Realty – God is the Highest of all

Next in line comes the virtue of Truthful living."

As per Nicolai Hartman, " Truthfulness is an agreement of one’s thought or convictions." Our Gurus added another significant item to it and evolved a new definition and that is, " One’s actions must support one’s words and convictions. The Virtuous Actions.

In Sikhism, a family life is preferred to the life of an ascetic. And the guidelines to run the family affairs are:

" One should earn one’s living by honest means, share one’s earnings with the needy and keep God Almighty – the Creator always in one’s mind – that is to be always thankful to Him."

Guru Nanak refused a dinner invitation of a rich man – Malik Bhago, who sucked the blood of people to earn his wealth. The Great Guru preferred to dine an ordinary meal with a poor man – Bhai Lalo, who earned his bread by honest means. Apart from this, sharing of one’s earnings must be done with the spirit of responsibility towards our fellow human beings and not as a charity. Only God Almighty gives charity to all of us, we only share His Gifts. Service to humanity irrespective of their caste, creed, color, religion and nationality is the Sikh way to love people and enjoy the revelation of God. For example, in context with the present day business system, if, for some reason, we are forced to downsize our company and cut our workforce, we should bear in mind the principles of this rule. We should consider reducing the hours of our employees rather than terminating the services of a few.

This should be the basis of all the professions – farming, business, manufacturing, retailing, medicine, engineering or any other job. Any or all professions are good, if one takes the guidance from a True Guru and follows the moral standards and code of conduct as explained by the Guru. I quote from our Scriptures below:

" nwnk siqguir ByitAY pUrI hovY jugiq ]

hsMidAw KylµidAw pYnµidAw KwvMidAw ivcy hovY mukiq ]"

" O Nanak! by following a true Guru - Guide, one understands the real secret of a balanced life. Then, while leading a family life of a householder, earning one’s bread by honest means, one can get saved from vices." (The actual bondage)

No profession is in any way a hindrance to our objective of reaching God or to have a complete Union with God as emphasized in our Scriptures – Guru Granth Sahib.

" nwmw mwieAw moihAw khY iqlocnu mIq ]

kwhy CIphu CwielY rwm n lwvhu cIqu ] 212 ]

nwmw khY iqlocnw muK qy rwmu sMm@wil ]

hwQ pwau kir kwmu sBu cIqu inrMjnu nwil ] 213 ]"

When a devotee of God, Trilochan criticized another devotee, Namdev for spending his time doing work for living and not concentrating upon God’s Name, he replied: " The principle of life should be to keep God’s Name always in your heart while honestly performing the duties of your profession. "

One thing which causes ppl to hate capitalism is the power imbalance and exploitation of it between employer and employee. However this not need be the case if both serve their roles in accordance with gurmat.

The relationship between an employer and a employee should be:

The mission of an employee should be to do the job sincerely with an objective to serve the humanity and not to earn money to become rich and then claim superiority over others. On the other hand an employer is duty bound to treat every employee equally and fairly without taking undue advantage of some one’s weakness. Age and/or gender discrimination is against the fundamental tenets of Sikhism

Ethics are more important than other things. Cheating, lying, black-marketing, profiteering, bribing are not approved by the Father of the Universe – God. God’s displeasure can not bring peace and happiness in our hearts though such unethical actions may bring more money, and give temperory satisfaction. Riches thus collected increase our ego, which is the real cause of all the problems in human beings. It acts like a thorn deep down in our heart that can produce nothing but discomfort and pain and is the biggest hindrance on the way to God. To deprive someone of his/her due share or wages is strongly disapproved in the Sikh Scriptures:

" hku prwieAw nwnkw ausu sUAr ausu gwie ]

guru pIru hwmw qw Bry jw murdwru n Kwie ]"

" To deprive someone of his/her due share is like eating pork (for a Muslim) and

eating beef (for a Hindu). The Guru will stand by you, if you do not consume

someone else’s share, which is deadly for you."

In fact the best trade or business in the words of our Guru is:

" scu vwpwru krhu vwpwrI ] drgh inbhY Kyp qumwrI ]""

The greatest business that will give you good name in the Court of God is your truthful dealing with absolute Truth – God."

[Kharkoo4Life]

After that lengthy read, hopefuly it makes the perspective and stance of Sikhi a bit more clearer. WIth that understanding let us look at the initial questions u posed:

What is the Sikhi position with respect to Capitlism and the modern Corporation?

(a corporation is an enitity that is solely centered on profiteering)

Sikhi does not preach an absolute outright against anything in this world. It merely encourages us to understand that things proper use. Another words use that particular electronic device, that individual skill or talent, that institution, that company (whatever that thing may be) for the benefit of all humanity. To help make improve peoples lives and bring happiness and love for each other. IF we use this attitude then that coporoation which had becomed engrossed in greedy profiteering, will still strive to make profit, but not at the expense of exploting others. It will do so only by hard honest means. And if it makes a rather substantial sizable profit it will reinvest that profit amongs the employees as well thos members of society who may be in need. Thus not only has that 'evil' corporation become a tool for spreading Gods love, but if every business took this approach then the 'evil' system of capitalism itself will also become another expression of love and equality rather than greed and exploitation.

Is the legal acquisition of goods permitted within Sikhi? or is a sikh not permitted to attain too much capital?

(Should we be allowed to enjoy the fruits of our own labour or is this wrong?)

A sikh is entitled to acquire anything he is able to so long as he does one thing: Keeps remembrance of God in his mind at all times. Because if he forgets God then that thing will become maya.

eyh mwieAw ijqu hir ivsrY mohu aupjY Bwau dUjw lwieAw ]

This is Maya, by which the Lord is forgotten; emotional attachment and love of duality well up.

But if one keeps god in his mind while acquiring these good then that thing will no longer be seen as maya or a hinderece to realizing God, instead as teh guru states in the next line

khY nwnku gur prswdI ijnw ilv lwgI iqnI ivcy mwieAw pwieAw ]29]

Says Nanak, by Guru's Grace, those who enshrine love for the Lord find Him, in the midst of Maya.

By remembering God at all times while acquiring these worldly goods a couple of things will occur:

1) He will only use honest means to acquire them, for God is the embodiment of truth and always remembering god the person will automatically practice truth at all times.

2) Whatever he acquire he will not use for selfish puposes or to harm others. He will use it for the benefit and good of eveyone.

3) He will not cling to that good as his own. He will realize that everything belongs to God and these goods are merely gifts from Him. So if He is kind enough to share them with us, then we should be willing to share these gifts with whomever else needs them, if any need arises.

As Sikhs we are sometimes wrongfull told that a Sikh is above this world and shudnt gather any form of wealth. But they do not realize if this wealth (delicacies, material goods) were so evil to begin with, why would god have given them to us, and keep giving them to us. These goods were given to us to enjoy but with the one instruction, to use these goods for their inteneded use for humanities benefit. As long as we keep god in our mind at all times, n say thanks to him then there is nothing wrong in enjoying the pleasures he gives us.

The 6th asthpadhi of Sukhmani sahib is filled with a list of wordly goods which man enjoys. Before each it says "By His Grace ", meaning we are fortunate to enjoy them. IF it was harmful or wrong then it wudnt be a grace of his. But it is. But after descrbigin each of these worldly goods, the immediate line after it is filled with an instruction to us to keep that god in remembrance while enjoyin that good. By doin that, the above mentioned 3 co-conditions will n ever be breached.

ijh pRswid sugMDq qin lwvih ]

By His Grace, you apply scented oils to your body;

iqs kau ismrq prm giq pwvih ]

remembering Him, the supreme status is obtained.

ijh pRswid AwBUKn pihrIjY ]

By His Grace, you wear decorations;

mn iqsu ismrq ikau Awlsu kIjY ]

O mind, why are you so lazy? Why don't you remember Him in meditation?

ijh pRswid AsÍ hsiq AsvwrI ]

By His Grace, you have horses and elephants to ride;

mn iqsu pRB kau kbhU n ibswrI ]

O mind, never forget that God.

ijh pRswid bwg imlK Dnw ]

By His Grace, you have land, gardens and wealth;

rwKu proie pRBu Apuny mnw ]

keep God enshrined in your heart.

What FORCE should motivate us (AS SIKHS) to accumalate capital to ensure our physical survival?

--> Should it be Maya (A word that is --- very unpopular amongst sikhs) or something else?

....note if you pick something else then I would like to know what it is?

The key force behind whatever we do, be it schooling to get a degree, working to get money, volunteer work (seva) to help others, should always be the same: Namely the remembrance and devotion to the Almighty Lord who has made all this possible for us in the first place.

The guru did not forbid any sikhs from working, or from making money thru their works. If the guru was so against ppl gathering wealth then he would have scolded every king and said it is a sin to become a king or queen. But he didnt. The guru merely said, whatever it is you do, do it while immersing yourself in the the love of god. When one is filled with nothing but love for god in them, then no matter what they do, it will be honest and pure. They can live a life as a simple farmer in a hut or a welathy raja in a palace. In either case, neither will exploit or harm anyone. THey will use whatever resources or means they have (be they small or large) to help all those around them.

the driving force behind us shud never be maya:

lwgI BUK mwieAw mgu johY mukiq pdwrQu moih Kry ]3]

Driven by hunger, it sees the path of Maya's riches; this emotional attachment takes away the treasure of liberation

instead it should be as follows:

mnu kuMcru pIlku gurU igAwnu kuMfw jh iKMcy qh jwie ]

The mind is the elephant, the Guru is the elephant-driver, and knowledge is the whip. Wherever the Guru drives the mind, it goes

ANd once we start making the guru our driving force, then the end result will be:

khu nwnk Brmu guir KoieAw qw hir mhlI mhlu pwieAw Qw ]4]3]12]

Says Nanak, when the Guru drives out doubt, then the soul-bride enters the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.

[randip singh]

Hello everybody,

I have a few questions on sikhi and its stance towards a modern enitity, capitilism:

When Sikhi emerged we can say with confidence that it emerged in the midst of the Indian Medieval ages (a time of continous political turmoil). Sikhi also emerged before the arrival of modern capitilism. (India experienced the full revolutionary strength of capitilism after the colonization of India by the British---Introduction of the East India company, and various other trading companies).

Now,

In Medieval India we had a pre-capitilistic society in which the ruthless acquisition of goods was permitted AND was bound to NO ethical norms whatsoever.

(lots of crime: cheating, fraud and larceny were all common modes of aquiring capital)

I am assuming with confidence that our guru's were also against these ruthless acquisition processes.

With the emergeance of Capitlism all this changed dramatically, Lawfullness greatly increased and we get the implementation of modern laws that started to protect the "corporation" (both good and bad...I guess).

My question now lies;

What is the Sikhi position with respect to Capitlism and the modern Corporation?

(a corporation is an enitity that is solely centered on profiteering)Is the legal acquisition of goods permitted within Sikhi? or is a sikh not permitted to attain too much capital?

(Should we be allowed to enjoy the fruits of our own labour or is this wrong?)

AND

What FORCE should motivate us (AS SIKHS) to accumalate capital to ensure our physical survival?

--> Should it be Maya (A word that is --- very unpopular amongst sikhs) or something else?

....note if you pick something else then I would like to know what it is?cheers.

142381[/snapback]

Some excellent questions!

Rather than answer the question directly can I point to some Sikh institutions that may give you an idea of the Sikh ideal. Also some refrences to history.

1) The followers of the Guru’s are the Sudra’s (Working Classes), Jatt’s, Kalal’s , Tarkhan’s, Chimba’s, etc etc. They are given symbols of royalty.

2) Bandha Bahadhur redistributes land in Punjab to those who work it, i.e. the peasantry, namely Jatt’s, Khambho’s, Saini’s, Lubhana’s , Tarkhan’s etc, and wrestle’s it from the Nawab’sand Rajput’s. This reform is continued under Ranjit Singh. Peasants are upgraded to the status of Jamidar (landowner).

3) Sikhs are encourage to give Daswandh (or 10% of their earnings).

4) Guru Nanak illustrates to Rai Bhullar how his food had the stench of blood (exploitation) and Bhia Lalo’s the smell of milk (hard work).

5) The Panj Pyarey, or institute of equals established where no man is higher or lower than the other. Even the guru bows down to the 5 himself.

6) The five vices in Sikhism are Greed, Egotism, Materialism, Lust and Anger/Stubborness. Note the Greed and Materialism

I am sure people could add more to this list, but the Sikh messsage and attitude towards Capitalism is clear. Work hard, be fair, do not exploit, do not be greed, do not become obsessed with wealth.

[proud_to_be_singhni]

..... ....i just dont know how u people can write so much.... i ever have the time...

wow....i usually save these topics for a rainy day, and in extreme boredom....

keep up the fantastic work!

[proud_to_be_singhni]

..... ....i just dont know how u people can write so much.... i never have the time...

wow....i usually save these topics for a rainy day, and in extreme boredom....

keep up the fantastic work!