Hindu laws cover Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists

[13Mirch]

This is going to be very anti-Gurmat but when I see this comment:

"It is no coincidence that Guru Nanak did not fashion a ‘Sikh identity’. His whole discourse was anti-identity. It was against breaking up humanity into religions, castes, nationalities etc. The Khalsa was created by the 10th guru Guru Govind Singh. But his innovations also had no bearing on matrimonial, adoption, and succession laws of the Hindus prevalent in those days."

I say f*** India and all Indians who are proud of their mother**** nation!!!

But seeing as how all this "Sikhs are Hindu" stuff is happening we should all ignore it and go after Singh-Sabha with a vengeance.

[luckysingh99]

I have a question.

Now, I was not born in india and have to learn about it from others.

Is the sikh anand karaj ceremony formal enough to entitle you to a marriage certificate there OR do you end up with an 'indian or hindu' cerificate that stipulates the hindu marriage act of whatever year ?

Is there a sikh marriage act ??

[13Mirch]

There was. Once.

[N30S1NGH]

I am not aware of any literature from singh sabha pointing out demonization of nirmale or puratan samaprda but their actions speak for itself if we look at the history

- SGPC taking over their gurdwaras, in afraid of sgpc taking over- udasi and nirmale declaring themselves part of wider snatan group so sgpc can shove take their version of panth where sun does not shine.

- stoping sri dasam granth sahib parkash and throwing sri dasam granth sahib out of darbar sahib

- stoping and destroying any notions of sarguna expression "systematiaclly" - white washing puratan/destroying fresco of guru sahiban.

You will find glimpse here

http://www.sikhsanga...u-arjan-dev-ji/

- stoping nihang traditions.

- Teja Singh Bhausaria/mindset coming up with his own tat khalsa revionist idealogy and super imposing itself on the panth

http://www.sikhsanga...t-in-the-panth/

Read anyalsis regarding sanatan dharma destruction by arya samajis, you can draw quite interesting parallelism from it with sections of singh sabha. I am sure singh sabha did good works too/original leaders were sensible leaders but later on the movement got hijacked by radical elements start introducting protestant version of sikhi/tat khalsa revionist form, along with radical changes in sikhi always outweigh good work being done.

Remember its same reincarnation of teja singh bhausaria coming back and bite us back in the panth such rejecting sri dasam granth, jaap sahib, sri sarbloh granth etc. So onus is on staunch blind singh sabha supporters to condemn them in public because of anti dasam granth and jaap sahib views.

Anyway you can create a separate thread about it..i m sure members like dalsingh101 who are more knowledable in this area can contribute.

People can also read mega thread on singh sabha which has research and anaylsis done by dalsingh101.

http://www.sikhaware...sabha-movement/

[Bijla Singh]

- SGPC taking over their gurdwaras, in afraid of sgpc taking over- udasi and nirmale declaring themselves part of wider snatan group so sgpc can shove take their version of panth where sun does not shine.

This has already been refuted. Singh Sabha ceased to exist in 1902. You blindly ignore facts for no reason. Sikhs not just Singh Sabha wanted Gurdwara practices brought back to Sikhi while pujaris did not. So the latter openly went in the arms of Hinduism to which they already subscribed. Their greed was good enough to show that they held property and materialistic things dearer than Gurmat.

- stoping sri dasam granth sahib parkash and throwing sri dasam granth sahib out of darbar sahib

No evidence provided. Some 18^th century accounts published in the book by Niddar prove that there used to be only one Granth parkash in Sikh Gurdwaras. No doubt, Dal Khalsa kept both saroops but there is no early evidence to suggest that parallel and equal parkash used to be done. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed on Guruship, how many granths were parkash at the time? This settles the debate.

- stoping and destroying any notions of sarguna expression "systematiaclly" - white washing puratan/destroying fresco of guru sahiban.

Pictures, idols etc, are strictly against Gurmat. Pujaris installed idols in Gurdwaras and Sikhs threw them out. What would you say about Gurdwaras in Kabul, U.P. and Bengal from which idols were thrown out? Singh Sabha?

stoping nihang traditions.

Nihungs have been carrying out some of their manmat practices to this day. I do not see them reforming. Some of these Nihungs openly supported mahants and not to mention Buddha Dal supported Indira Gandhi. Thank God Darbar Sahib wasn’t under their control.

Teja Singh Bhausaria/mindset coming up with his own tat khalsa revionist idealogy and super imposing itself on the panth

This has been addressed in another topic already. He was excommunicated by the Panth and need I remind you it was the Singh Sabha supporters who opposed, refuted and played a key role in kicking him out. I see no step taken by any samparda to oppose mahants.

Remember its same reincarnation of teja singh bhausaria coming back and bite us back in the panth such rejecting sri dasam granth, jaap sahib, sri sarbloh granth etc. So onus is on staunch blind singh sabha supporters to condemn them in public because of anti dasam granth and jaap sahib views.

You fail to see difference between original and modern so-called Singh Sabha. The latter is opposing Dasam Granth while the former supported it. Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh etc. were all supporters of Dasam Granth. If one group opposed Gurmat using the name of Taksal, would it be wise to write against Damdami Taksal? I think not.

Without actually having your facts and reading the history properly, it is not wise to keep harping on the same anti-Singh Sabha statements. Why not act more like a gursikh and focus more on the positives than the negatives?

[N30S1NGH]

This has already been refuted. Singh Sabha ceased to exist in 1902. You blindly ignore facts for no reason. Sikhs not just Singh Sabha wanted Gurdwara practices brought back to Sikhi while pujaris did not. So the latter openly went in the arms of Hinduism to which they already subscribed. Their greed was good enough to show that they held property and materialistic things dearer than Gurmat.

Not greed but saving puratan traditions they hold dearly - i m not talking about pujaris here but i m talking about wider nirmale and udasi gurdwaras being robbed by these goons. We will see how you react when someone comes to your house try white washing your house setup- may be install forcefully padched saroop instead of larivaar of sri guru granth sahib ji.!!!!!

No evidence provided. Some 18th century accounts published in the book by Niddar prove that there used to be only one Granth parkash in Sikh Gurdwaras. No doubt, Dal Khalsa kept both saroops but there is no early evidence to suggest that parallel and equal parkash used to be done. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed on Guruship, how many granths were parkash at the time? This settles the debate.

Guruship was given to sri guru granth sahib ji but during amrit sanchar banis are ready from sri dasam granth. So its only understandable to have both parkash. There is plenty of oral history available from non nihang sources in punjab from elderly in punjab of this event taking place.

Pictures, idols etc, are strictly against Gurmat. Pujaris installed idols in Gurdwaras and Sikhs threw them out. What would you say about Gurdwaras in Kabul, U.P. and Bengal from which idols were thrown out? Singh Sabha?

I am talking about fresco not idols. Neverthless, if pictures/iconic/symbolism are against gurmat. I don't see tat khalsa warrriors knocking them down? whats stopping them? Do this mahan panthic seva..!!

Next time you see a picture - be true singh of sri guru gobind singh ji- destroy it ...i m sure guru ji will give you sairopa for it..!!

This has been addressed in another topic already. He was excommunicated by the Panth and need I remind you it was the Singh Sabha supporters who opposed, refuted and played a key role in kicking him out. I see no step taken by any samparda to oppose mahants.

But his mindset is alive and kicking:

http://www.sikhsanga...t-in-the-panth/

You fail to see difference between original and modern so-called Singh Sabha.

Now thats a interesting point you made here. Can you please tell us - when this original singh sabha movement start getting hijacked by modern so called singh sabha?

More anyalsis needed to be done on here. Modern so called singh sabha already establish itself with teja singh bhausaria. Bhausaria is not person but idea an mindset unfortunately it spread like a virus even after teja singh bhausaria passing away. Onus is on real singh sabha to do unbias research- first fully define teja singh bhausaria beleifs- his thought processs, reasoning then draw parallelism to it..one will notice whole lot of can of worms opening itself..more you scratch more it stinks..!!

[Bijla Singh]

Not greed but saving puratan traditions they hold dearly - i m not talking about pujaris here but i m talking about wider nirmale and udasi gurdwaras being robbed by these goons. We will see how you react when someone comes to your house try white washing your house setup- may be install forcefully padched saroop instead of larivaar of sri guru granth sahib ji.!!!!!

Bhai Sahib, Gurdwaras under Udasis and Nirmalas were never and are not their personal property. There is affine line between my personal house and a Gurdwara. Sikhs who sacrificed for Gurdwaras were not goons. The real goons were those who left Gurmat and adopted Hinduism. What kind of so-called traditions were they able to preserve by falling in the hands of Hinduism? This is simply an excuse. A true Sikh wouldn’t leave Gurmat. He rather die but sampardas gave up Gurmat and made alliance with Hinduism. Now where is the part of saving traditions? They turned their back on Gurmat traditions and Sikhs sacrificed to win back their Gurdwaras which udasis considered their personal property. Udasis and Nirmalas held property dearer to save which they gave up Gurmat.

Guruship was given to sri guru granth sahib ji but during amrit sanchar banis are ready from sri dasam granth. So its only understandable to have both parkash. There is plenty of oral history available from non nihang sources in punjab from elderly in punjab of this event taking place.

There is no written evidence to support this. Even Amrit Sanchaars held by many Taksals do not hold this practice. Oral traditions can be fabricated as is being done by Nihungs and nangs today.

I am talking about fresco not idols. Neverthless, if pictures/iconic/symbolism are against gurmat. I don't see tat khalsa warrriors knocking them down? whats stopping them? Do this mahan panthic seva..!!

Your own point refutes your claim here. If Sikhs destroyed these frescos then why didn’t they destroy all the painting on the walls of Darbar Sahib? Where is the evidence? Or will you hide behind “oral tradition” again? There are plenty of Singh Sabha accounts available and the fact that you cannot present a single evidence proves that your assertions have no claim.

Next time you see a picture - be true singh of sri guru gobind singh ji- destroy it ...i m sure guru ji will give you sairopa for it..!!

Worshipping idols/images is strictly against Gurmat. There is not a single pankti in Gurbani that supports idolizing God. A true Singh of Guru Sahib rejects idol worship and preaches the same. Destroying a picture (though not anti-Gurmat) will not bring about the change in person. I do not know why you present such irrational and invalid arguments. Do you expect to have a siropa by depicting a physical saroop of Shabad Guru?

Now thats a interesting point you made here. Can you please tell us - when this original singh sabha movement start getting hijacked by modern so called singh sabha?

Original Singh Sabha died in 1902. All the supporters of Kala Afghana etc. are the modern Singh Sabha and a disgrace to the original Singh Sabha. The latter revived the Panth while the former is destroying it. Yet again, no response from sampardas.

it is foolish to discredit and malign the entire Singh Sabha based on just one person’s misdeeds. Would it be wise to denigrate the Buddha Dal of past and present based on Sant Singh’s treacherous role? Think about it.

[N30S1NGH]

Bhai Sahib, Gurdwaras under Udasis and Nirmalas were never and are not their personal property. There is affine line between my personal house and a Gurdwara. Sikhs who sacrificed for Gurdwaras were not goons. The real goons were those who left Gurmat and adopted Hinduism. What kind of so-called traditions were they able to preserve by falling in the hands of Hinduism? This is simply an excuse. A true Sikh wouldn’t leave Gurmat. He rather die but sampardas gave up Gurmat and made alliance with Hinduism. Now where is the part of saving traditions? They turned their back on Gurmat traditions and Sikhs sacrificed to win back their Gurdwaras which udasis considered their personal property. Udasis and Nirmalas held property dearer to save which they gave up Gurmat.

They never left Gurmat but they left new reformed tat khalsa revionist sikh "ism". Everything for the most part udasi and nirmale gurdaras had were aligned with history/gurmat theology which they were validated by seena-basina tradition then you have radical factions of singh sabha coming as they were dropped from sky acting - they are real sikhs and sikhi didn't existed before singh sabha, as without any debate or discussion- start taking control of their gurdwara which nirmale and udasi hold dearly because of their predecessors some of asthan had historic blessing from guru maharaj himself.... In western terminology, thats destroying heritage, symbolism culture, systematically.

You want another analogy to put it in contrast? Um lets see.

Lets say knock on wood but lets say one day Tapoban from canada, goes to narangawal, takes over original astha of akj- bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji, declares akj- kachaie, pillaie dhillaie (which they already do abroad) takes over their asthan. How would they feel?

There is no written evidence to support this. Even Amrit Sanchaars held by many Taksals do not hold this practice. Oral traditions can be fabricated as is being done by Nihungs and nangs today.

Nihangs still do and hazoor sahib still do, not sure taksal in bhindrankalah do may be more same can confirm it? Anyway the point, its only "understandable" to have both sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth sahib parkash as amrit sanchar banis are from both scriptures.

I don't see any fabrication here. Anything you don't want to accept does not make it fabrication.

Your own point refutes your claim here. If Sikhs destroyed these frescos then why didn’t they destroy all the painting on the walls of Darbar Sahib? Where is the evidence? Or will you hide behind “oral tradition” again? There are plenty of Singh Sabha accounts available and the fact that you cannot present a single evidence proves that your assertions have no claim.

There are plenty of unbias research being done with pictures by amandeep singh, paramjit singh...read them with open mind.. You know in academia circle - discrediting their work just because their association with nihang niddar singh does not hold any water, you be kicked out from academia if thats a soley your reason.

They got plenty of books. I don't agree with nihang niddar singh- even spent countless hours refuting his stuff online on this forum and my own but that does not stop me to buy and read works of amandeep singh and paramjit singh works especially when they back up things with pictorial evidence, its quite compelling...as they say pictures speaks thousands words..!!

Worshipping idols/images is strictly against Gurmat. There is not a single pankti in Gurbani that supports idolizing God. A true Singh of Guru Sahib rejects idol worship and preaches the same. Destroying a picture (though not anti-Gurmat) will not bring about the change in person. I do not know why you present such irrational and invalid arguments. Do you expect to have a siropa by depicting a physical saroop of Shabad Guru?

It was quite evident, teja singh bhausaria and his mindset try to destroy anything sargun base in fear of people paying respect to them- they even modified vahiguroo mantar to remove sargun elements from it.

I challenge by maharaj kirpa any soo called self pro claimed hybrid nirgun vaddis to proof what they reciting/beleif its 100% nirgun, the fact they themselves are sargun poojaks (phsyical sachkhand) and sad they didn't even know it, they don't even what their guru is, that they discriminate against padched saroop of sri guru granth sahib ji arrogantly walk away from maharaj darbar ..!!

Anyway, people can read about it and decide it for themselves regarding sargun, nirgun, sarguna devotion discussion we had few years ago:

http://www.sikhaware...-when-they-die/

Original Singh Sabha died in 1902. All the supporters of Kala Afghana etc. are the modern Singh Sabha and a disgrace to the original Singh Sabha. The latter revived the Panth while the former is destroying it. Yet again, no response from sampardas.

it is foolish to discredit and malign the entire Singh Sabha based on just one person’s misdeeds. Would it be wise to denigrate the Buddha Dal of past and present based on Sant Singh’s treacherous role? Think about it.

Whether you like it or not- singh sabha factions (not original ) but radical factions afterwards have influence of protestant/ bhausiar mindset. Quicker you will realize and openly acknowledge better it be as these are same mindset which mainstream sikhs have put them in pedestal are coming back to bite us back..its mainstream mess nurtured by mainstream, so deal with it with your share...samparda's already gave them intellectual rebuttals i.e- rebuttals against anti dasam granth heretics by swami bhramdev udasi.!!

There is nothing wrong with acknowledgement failures, lot of nirmale also do acknowledge some nirmale are highly influenced by vedant have gone totally on vedant side away from gurmat as gurmat is not raw form of advait...they do not shy away from that kind of acknowledgement and failure.

By the way- sri dasam granth sahib translations by pandit narain singh nirmala, sri sarbloh granth sahib translations by udasi, new rebuttal against heretics of anti dasam granth are written no other by swami bhramdev udasi.

Nirmale and udasi don't like to brag about it, their works speak for themselves..main stream sikhs owe them big time, they use their works to make their sikhitothemax look fancy, panthic maha panthic etc and they stab them at the back call them- kachaie, pillaie, dhillaie, bhraminvadi, advaiti,nanga sadhus all these disgusting labels with negative connations..shame on them.!!