Caste System

[Mann_Jatt]

1) If you are so concerened about race/caste what are you doing on a site about Sikhism that is firmly against racial/gender/caste distinctions? Would you not be better on a caste/race web site?

If you bothered to read any earlier posts you will know that I only joined as this forum was not available for viewing anymore to the general public. Secondly I did not start this thread or any other "caste" thread, that’s the whole purpose of forums to reply to threads, I did nothing more than this. I felt that Jatts were being misrepresented so I decided to balance things out.

2) We all recognise that people are different from different backgrounds as Sikhs, but we do not make an issue of it. Why are you clearly making an issue of it?

I'm not making an issue, I am discussing my views on a particular issue.

3) Does not the term Aryan-Christian or White-Christian cunjer up images of some sort of right wing association? They why do you persist in doing the same?

Pointless and irrelevant observation.

4) You used the flimsy example of Guru’s marrying other Khatri’s only that all “race” purveyors use, but I have yet to find any Guru that refered to them as Khatri-Sikh or Khatri-Bedi. However you clearly do. Do you think you know better than the Guru’s?

Please don't keep twisting my words, it gets frustrating when people have to resort to this kind of behaviour. My point was that if Guru Ji wanted to make a point of inter-caste/race marriage they would have done so, they had 10 opportunities. I am nothing compared to Guru Ji, so please don't say things like that.

5) Putting the issue of marriage to one side, does not all the Guru’s writings talk exclusively about equality? Then why then the need to emphasise amongst fellow Sikhs that you are racially different?

This is becoming tiresome, I am not emphasising anything, I merely stated correctly what Jatts are, that they are an ethnic group.

6) Why should we care whether you are racially different? Does it make you braver? Does it make you tougher? Does it make you more intelligent? (Think carefully before you answer this in the Sikh context).

Ok, from persona

l, cultural and historical observations I believe you can attribute Jatts with certain characteristics and traits. Let me give you one simple yet compelling example, after the 84 Delhi riots, how many Bhappa Sikhs did you see come forward and fight, we both share the same faith, however whilst one group is willing to die so easily, the other after so much horror still chooses to sit still. So if you take the religious factor away the only other variable I can think about is some genetic behavioural traits. I am not saying that all Jatts are like this or another group is all like that, you get variations in all races.

7)You have mentioned earlier that Bhangra was invented by the Jatts, then if that is the case, then where are the Bhangra dancers in Haryana, UP, and Rajhasthan? Also what about Bhangra in Pakistan Punjab (non-existant)? What has happened to it? And please point out to the exact fellow who invented Bhangra, we all want to know?

Amusing stuff, can't believe you are contesting this. I'm not even going to bother with this one, just listen to some Punjabi Folk legends like Manak and Shinda.

8) What makes you racially different from other Punjabi’s? It certainly is not features or colour because I see black, short and flat nosed Jatts all the time in the Midlands where there is a massive community of Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds? Do they have specific DNA markers that seperate them from the rest of humanity?

More lies, comments like this hold no credibility.

>

9) What makes you think we care about your racial theories......afterall .........that is all they are “theories” cunjered up by one BS Dhillon from 18th Century British Historians? (You see I have debated with BS Dhillon (XXX) on this matter and he resorted to insults in the end.)

They are not theories my friend, there was a in-depth DNA study in America between so called higher and lower "castes" in India, the results were conclusive in that the higher "castes" that invaded from the West were genetically the same as Europeans rather than lower "caste" Indians. Also there was a DNA study conducted on Jatt Sikhs, results showed a clear genetic difference between other Indians, however the sample studied was small. These are strong indicators to the race theory. I agree however the only conclusive proof will be a full DNA study of Jatt Sikhs.

10) What makes you think Jatts were exclluded from the caste system? What makes you think they were able to by pass the Brahmanical influences? Why did so many Jatts try to become Buddhists and then Muslims and then Sikhs and finally Arya Samajists to avoid the caste system? Why are all references in Dabistan-i-Mazhib (which are Persian records from Mughal Times) refer to Jatts as Shudra or lower Vaishnav? Why did Jatts always consult Brahmins on all auspicious occaisions? Why did the Phulkian Maharaja (Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds) try and get Brahmins to pronounce them as Kshatriyas?

Thanks for the amusement, I really don't think you have ever

met a Jatt or been to Punjab. Jatts have no respect and spit on Brahmins in Punjab. Pre-Sikhism time Jatts were not very religious and had no particular ties to any one religion. You are also making insulting comments about the Phulkian Misl.

Randip Singh you are quite famous, I remember reading your numerous anti-Jatt threads on various forums, I assume you are the same one, you must be doing well in the Google search rankings.

So why are there no "Jatts" in Persia or Afghanistan since these places were also invaded and ruled by Scythians and Parthians at one time or another?

According to Ibbertson, Maclagan, Rose etc the only Punjabis to be largely found in Central Asia were those of the Khatri caste. Look at the demographics of Punjab prior to 1947 partition and again you will find that the Jatt cast is most predominate in the eastern and south eastern parts of Punjab (Doba, Malwa and Haryana) ie, those areas of Punjab which were never invaded or migrated to en-mass by Persians and Central Asians.

Ok, Scythians were nomadic people and the vast majority travelled right up to the Punjab region and settled. Jatts are not the only group that descend from Scythians, there are also Rajputs, and you will find overlaps between Jatt and Rajput clans. There are traces of Scythian/Jatt ancestry in the Middle East, check the links below:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/article...of_mauryas1.ppa

http://www.everytongue.com/iran/all-languages.htm (Number 28)

I dont see any of these great German Warriors which sharp features, good builds, light skin tone etc  All i see is a bunch of brown-skinned, short, dark Indians who are of Jatt caste

What the German thing is all about I don't know. However you really put your foot in this one. As the man you see standing in the middle is Jatt Sikh, Dara Singh Randhawa, India's greatest wrestler, who stands at 6' 4". You are quick to fire blanks, but thanks for the entertainment.

That is why of all the Punjabi Sikhs those who came from Jatt caste background are the biggest supporters and promoters of their forefathers caste.

Yes I am proud that my forefathers were strong.

With this kind of jealously I really appreciate the honesty and humbleness of people like Punjabi Predator and Aman Kaur when talking about this issue.

[PunjabiPredator]

QUOTE 

1) If you are so concerened about race/caste what are you doing on a site about Sikhism that is firmly against racial/gender/caste distinctions? Would you not be better on a caste/race web site?

If you bothered to read any earlier posts you will know that I only joined as this forum was not available for viewing anymore to the general public. Secondly I did not start this thread or any other "caste" thread, that’s the whole purpose of forums to reply to threads, I did nothing more than this. I felt that Jatts were being misrepresented so I decided to balance things out.

QUOTE 

2) We all recognise that people are different from different backgrounds as Sikhs, but we do not make an issue of it. Why are you clearly making an issue of it?

I'm not making an issue, I am discussing my views on a particular issue.

QUOTE 

3) Does not the term Aryan-Christian or White-Christian cunjer up images of some sort of right wing association? They why do you persist in doing the same?

Pointless and irrelevant observation.

QUOTE 

4) You used the flimsy example of Guru’s marrying other Khatri’s only that all “race” purveyors use, but I have yet to find any Guru that refered to them as Khatri-Sikh or Khatri-Bedi. However you clearly do. Do you think you know better than the Guru’s?

Please don't keep twisting my words, it gets frustrating when people have to resort to this kind of behaviour. My point was that if Guru Ji wan

ted to make a point of inter-caste/race marriage they would have done so, they had 10 opportunities. I am nothing compared to Guru Ji, so please don't say things like that.

QUOTE 

5) Putting the issue of marriage to one side, does not all the Guru’s writings talk exclusively about equality? Then why then the need to emphasise amongst fellow Sikhs that you are racially different?

This is becoming tiresome, I am not emphasising anything, I merely stated correctly what Jatts are, that they are an ethnic group.

QUOTE 

6) Why should we care whether you are racially different? Does it make you braver? Does it make you tougher? Does it make you more intelligent? (Think carefully before you answer this in the Sikh context).

Ok, from personal, cultural and historical observations I believe you can attribute Jatts with certain characteristics and traits. Let me give you one simple yet compelling example, after the 84 Delhi riots, how many Bhappa Sikhs did you see come forward and fight, we both share the same faith, however whilst one group is willing to die so easily, the other after so much horror still chooses to sit still. So if you take the religious factor away the only other variable I can think about is some genetic behavioural traits. I am not saying that all Jatts are like this or another group is all like that, you get variations in all races.

QUOTE 

7)You have mentioned earlier that Bhangra was invented by the Jatts, then if that is the case, then where are the Bhangra dancers in Haryana, UP, and Rajhasthan? Also what about Bhangra in Pakistan Punjab (non-existant)? What has happened to it? And please point out to the exact fellow who invented Bhangra, we all want to know?

Amusing stuff, can't believe you are contesting this. I'm not even going to bother with this one, just listen to some Punjabi Folk legends like Manak and Shinda.

QUOTE 

8) What makes you racially different from other Punjabi’s? It certainly is not feat

ures or colour because I see black, short and flat nosed Jatts all the time in the Midlands where there is a massive community of Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds? Do they have specific DNA markers that seperate them from the rest of humanity?

More lies, comments like this hold no credibility.

QUOTE 

9) What makes you think we care about your racial theories......afterall .........that is all they are “theories” cunjered up by one BS Dhillon from 18th Century British Historians? (You see I have debated with BS Dhillon (XXX) on this matter and he resorted to insults in the end.)

They are not theories my friend, there was a in-depth DNA study in America between so called higher and lower "castes" in India, the results were conclusive in that the higher "castes" that invaded from the West were genetically the same as Europeans rather than lower "caste" Indians. Also there was a DNA study conducted on Jatt Sikhs, results showed a clear genetic difference between other Indians, however the sample studied was small. These are strong indicators to the race theory. I agree however the only conclusive proof will be a full DNA study of Jatt Sikhs.

QUOTE 

10) What makes you think Jatts were exclluded from the caste system? What makes you think they were able to by pass the Brahmanical influences? Why did so many Jatts try to become Buddhists and then Muslims and then Sikhs and finally Arya Samajists to avoid the caste system? Why are all references in Dabistan-i-Mazhib (which are Persian records from Mughal Times) refer to Jatts as Shudra or lower Vaishnav? Why did Jatts always consult Brahmins on all auspicious occaisions? Why did the Phulkian Maharaja (Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds) try and get Brahmins to pronounce them as Kshatriyas?

Thanks for the amusement, I really don't think you have ever met a Jatt or been to Punjab. Jatts have no respect and spit on Brahmins in Punjab. Pre-Sikhism time Jatts were not very religious and had no particular ties to any one religi

on. You are also making insulting comments about the Phulkian Misl.

Randip Singh you are quite famous, I remember reading your numerous anti-Jatt threads on various forums, I assume you are the same one, you must be doing well in the Google search rankings.

QUOTE 

So why are there no "Jatts" in Persia or Afghanistan since these places were also invaded and ruled by Scythians and Parthians at one time or another?

According to Ibbertson, Maclagan, Rose etc the only Punjabis to be largely found in Central Asia were those of the Khatri caste. Look at the demographics of Punjab prior to 1947 partition and again you will find that the Jatt cast is most predominate in the eastern and south eastern parts of Punjab (Doba, Malwa and Haryana) ie, those areas of Punjab which were never invaded or migrated to en-mass by Persians and Central Asians.

Ok, Scythians were nomadic people and the vast majority travelled right up to the Punjab region and settled. Jatts are not the only group that descend from Scythians, there are also Rajputs, and you will find overlaps between Jatt and Rajput clans. There are traces of Scythian/Jatt ancestry in the Middle East, check the links below:

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/article...of_mauryas1.ppa

http://www.everytongue.com/iran/all-languages.htm (Number 28)

QUOTE 

I dont see any of these great German Warriors which sharp features, good builds, light skin tone etc  All i see is a bunch of brown-skinned, short, dark Indians who are of Jatt caste

What the German thing is all about I don't know. However you really put your foot in this one. As the man you see standing in the middle is Jatt Sikh, Dara Singh Randhawa, India's greatest wrestler, who stands at 6' 4". You are quick to fire blanks, but thanks for the entertainment.

QUOTE 

That is why of all the Punjabi Sikhs those who came from Jatt caste background are the biggest supporters and promoters of their forefathers caste.

Yes I am proud that my forefathers were strong.

With this kind of jealously I really appreciate the honesty and humbleness of people like Punjabi Predator and Aman Kaur when talking about this issue.

Everyone is getting into a fight on this forum which is one of the things our Guru wanted us to avoid and come together. Like i said in my other post which you didn't reply to you need to treat everyone equal and not be remembering something that existed before the caste system that treated a different type of group or people differently from others. Our first Guru told us to treat everyone equal maybe he didn't go deep into it and made every single point of how he wanted us to be equal. You can't make a big deal out of one little thing yes maybe Jatt existed before the caste thing i'm not saying it didn't but our Guru's told us to treat everyone equal which is the main element of Sikhism.

Read this...

Guru Nanak felt that it would be improper to postpone Nama Smarana or remembering the Name of the Lord, even by a single breath, because no one could tell whether the breath that had gone in would come out or not. Nanak says, "We are men of one breath. I know not a longer time-limit". Guru Nanak calls him alone a true saint who remembers the Name of the Lord with every incoming and outgoing breath. The ideal is practical and within the reach of every man. He tells the people not to lose any time but to begin at once. He also says that there are no barriers of race, class, caste, creed or colour which check the progress of any in reaching the goal. He realised the great truth of the brotherhood of religions. He preached the universal brotherhood of man and the fatherhood of God to all people.

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/saints/gurunanak.htm

Are you going to follow your Guru's advice, or remember something that existed long time ago, and follow that which your own Guru tells you not too? He even said that there should be no barriers in any race, class, caste, creed, or colour. Your either a Jatt and are against your own Guru and his teachings or you are a Sikh and follow your Guru's teachings and follow the Guru Granth Saab.

[Balait_da_Sher]

Everyone is getting into a fight on this forum which is one of the things our Guru wanted us to avoid

And you were wondering why the caste topic was closed in the begining? You just answered ur own question , i think.

[PunjabiPredator]

QUOTE 

Everyone is getting into a fight on this forum which is one of the things our Guru wanted us to avoid

And you were wondering why the caste topic was closed in the begining? You just answered ur own question , i think.

I wasn't the one wondering it was Mann Jatt i just reopened it to see what people's opinions were.

[GushK]

My personal feeling on this is you are either a Gur Ka Sikh or not, there is no in-between and no other distinction.

Bearing this in mind - Mann_Jatt ji, I was wondering, rather than dissecting other small points of contention, what is your response to the enlightening article/email posted by amankaur.

Specifically, rather than argue about what our Guru's did, didn't or might have done, would you care to give any sort of contention to all the SGGS ang's referenced in the artice which refute caste/creed/race on the basis of it being a human trait rather than a soul trait, thus unimportant.

Please use Gurmat references in your points because only those are the real words of the Gurus and the only real source of TRUTH we have to guide us in this life.

Anything written by any other person or source should be considered irrelevent.

Looking fwd to your response.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Gursharan Singh

[randip singh]

1) If you are so concerened about race/caste what are you doing on a site about Sikhism that is firmly against racial/gender/caste distinctions? Would you not be better on a caste/race web site? 

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If you bothered to read any earlier posts you will know that I only joined as this forum was not available for viewing anymore to the general public.  Secondly I did not start this thread or any other "caste" thread, that’s the whole purpose of forums to reply to threads, I did nothing more than this.  I felt that Jatts were being misrepresented so I decided to balance things out.

Ok fair enough you did not start the thread………what are the mis-representations………..I have yet to read anything abusive on this site about jatts…………and I doubt anyone cares for your racial theories on a SIKH website................go to a site concerned with race...........

2) We all recognise that people are different from different backgrounds as Sikhs, but we do not make an issue of it. Why are you clearly making an issue of it? 

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I'm

not making an issue, I am discussing my views on a particular issue.

It must be an issue because you feel so strongly about it………………………….

3) Does not the term Aryan-Christian or White-Christian cunjer up images of some sort of right wing association? They why do you persist in doing the same?

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Pointless and irrelevant observation.

Actually it is not pointless………………reflect on what you have said and think about what kind of groups hark on about their racial origins………..usually, Bahmans, Nazi’s and the BNP.

4) You used the flimsy example of Guru’s marrying other Khatri’s only that all “race” purveyors use, but I have yet to find any Guru that refered to them as Khatri-Sikh or Khatri-Bedi. However you clearly do. Do you think you know better than the Guru’s? 

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Please don't keep twisting my words, it gets frustrating when people have to resort to this kind of behaviour.  My point was that if Guru Ji wanted to make a point of inter-caste/race marriage they would have done so, they had 10 opportunities.  I am nothing compared to Guru Ji, so please don't say things like that.

Why use this example at all?…………………….there was a lot of things the Guru’s did or did not do……………

….ever heard of the saying “Do as I say…….not as I do?”……………..well a teacher or Guru has nothing to prove to you or I…………………if you want me to discuss further why there were hardly any inter-caste marriages in the Guru’s times then I can post my reply that I posted to a fanatical Christian who said the same thing…………………

5) Putting the issue of marriage to one side, does not all the Guru’s writings talk exclusively about equality? Then why then the need to emphasise amongst fellow Sikhs that you are racially different? 

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This is becoming tiresome, I am not emphasising anything, I merely stated correctly what Jatts are, that they are an ethnic group.

I just read your first post and see your replies below I have commented on………….you are making a point………………

6) Why should we care whether you are racially different? Does it make you braver? Does it make you tougher? Does it make you more intelligent? (Think carefully before you answer this in the Sikh context).

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Ok, from personal, cultural and historical observations I believe you can attribute Jatts with certain characteristics and traits.  Let me give you one simple yet compelling example, after the 84 Delhi riots, how many Bhappa Sikhs did you see come forward and fight, we both share the same faith, however whilst one group is willing to die so easily, the other after so much hor

ror still chooses to sit still.  So if you take the religious factor away the only other variable I can think about is some genetic behavioural traits.  I am not saying that all Jatts are like this or another group is all like that, you get variations in all races.

What do you mean Bhappa Sikhs?…………..You mean Guru Hargobind Singh ji, and Guru Gobind Singh ji do you?……….or Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa…………….or maybe the founder of the Dalewalia Misl Gulaba Singh………….all warriors and so called Bhappas………………were these guys not brave...........

......ever heard of the Ramgarhia Brigade, Mazbhai's, Lubhana's, Aluwalias, Bhai Bachittar Singh etc etc etc...............the list goes on...........

Well find out who killed the leader of the Naquli Nirankari’s……….there is another example of a Sikh not of Jatt background…………………

…….Guruji gave Jatts, Tarkhan, Choorahs, Lubhana, Julaihi, etc all warrior traits………..they are know as Sikh and are a distinct separate group from these castes/races mentioned………….see Mandala Case UK HoL

In anycase………..Jatts make up 70% of Sikhs……..so the chances are that if a Sikh dies then there is a 3 in 4 chance he will be of Jatt background………..

…………….also don’t forget the millions of anti-sikh Jatts of Haryana, UP, Rajhasthan too…………..many of them helped in the Delhi Riots where the population of Sikhs were essentially from Arora, Khatri, tarkhan, Lubhana background………..

7)You have mentioned earlier that Bhangra was invented by the Jatts, then if that is the case, then where are the Bhangra dancers in Haryana, UP, and Rajhasthan? Also what about Bhangra in Pakistan Punjab (non-existant)? What has happened to it? And please point out to the exact fellow who invented Bhangra, we al

l want to know?

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Amusing stuff, can't believe you are contesting this.  I'm not even going to bother with this one, just listen to some Punjabi Folk legends like Manak and Shinda.

Not amusing but true………..Manak is a Jatt and Shinda from a Tarkhan background…………..both marasis

If Bhangra is a “jatt” thing then all jatts should do it……………..fact is it is a uniquely Punjabi thing that not one group can claim………..some reckon it goes back to the Macedonians of Alexander the Great………….they were not scythians..........

8) What makes you racially different from other Punjabi’s? It certainly is not features or colour because I see black, short and flat nosed Jatts all the time in the Midlands where there is a massive community of Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds? Do they have specific DNA markers that seperate them from the rest of humanity?

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More lies, comments like this hold no credibility.

Why lies………………facts…………..you take the average Rural person of Punjab regardless of race……….they will be taller than other Indians…………why……..because of the rural diet of fresh dairy produce………………..take a look at the Bhaiyas in Punjab……….fom skinny runts they have become big and strong…………

………..I invite you to Birmingham…………..pay me a visit…………I’ll introduce to friends of mine……………and you tell me who is jatt and who is not……….me myself I am 6ft one………….52 inch chest………………unfortunately of late the stomachs catching up……… :wub:

9) What makes you think we care about your racial theories......afterall .........that is all they are “theories” cunjered up by one BS Dhillon from 18th Century British Historians? (You see I have debated with BS Dhillon (XXX) on this matter and he resorted to insults in the end.)

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They are not theories my friend, there was a in-depth DNA study in America between so called higher and lower "castes" in India, the results were conclusive in that the higher "castes" that invaded from the West were genetically the same as Europeans rather than lower "caste" Indians.  Also there was a DNA study conducted on Jatt Sikhs, results showed a clear genetic difference between other Indians, however the sample studied was small.  These are strong indicators to the race theory.  I agree however the only conclusive proof will be a full DNA study of Jatt Sikhs.

Please facts only my friend…………..the latter study was done at Guru Nanak University and was inconclusive because it was not compared to other Sikh groups……………it failed on other issues to………….I’ve got it on my hardrive somewhere and will paste it if I can find it………………..

……….and what about comparing to Hindu-jatts (UP, Rajhasthan, Haryana and Muslim-jatts)………………….

10) What makes you think Jatts were exclluded from the caste system? What makes you think they were a

ble to by pass the Brahmanical influences? Why did so many Jatts try to become Buddhists and then Muslims and then Sikhs and finally Arya Samajists to avoid the caste system? Why are all references in Dabistan-i-Mazhib (which are Persian records from Mughal Times) refer to Jatts as Shudra or lower Vaishnav? Why did Jatts always consult Brahmins on all auspicious occaisions? Why did the Phulkian Maharaja (Sikhs from Jatt backgrounds) try and get Brahmins to pronounce them as Kshatriyas?

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Thanks for the amusement, I really don't think you have ever met a Jatt or been to Punjab.  Jatts have no respect and spit on Brahmins in Punjab.  Pre-Sikhism time Jatts were not very religious and had no particular ties to any one religion.  You are also making insulting comments about the Phulkian Misl.

I am not making insulting comments about the Phulkian Misl………….they have succeeded in doing that themselves by siding with Muslims and the Brits when it suited them……………even against Maharaja Ranjit Singh……….

On the contrary………I have been to Punjab and spent many a happy a time surveying my fields.........

……..Jatts are a very superstitious religious group along with other Punjabi groups………they visit all sorts of Bahmans and priests etc..............

……..read my posts on sikh-history.com about Sikh History from Persian sources………………which are as close as we can get to first hand eye witness accounts…………….

Randip Singh you are quite famous, I remember reading your numerous anti-Jatt threads on various forums, I assume you are the same one, you must be doing well in the Google search rankings.

Well if I’m that famous then you’ll know I know my history very well………….I research and use facts………..not conjecture……

…..anyway its about time you called me anti-jatt…………when people like you cannot debate you resort to this………………..

………the bottom line is do not bring this race/caste nonsense into sikh web sites………..and your sentiments wont get hurt..............

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

And why is this topic of any relevance to this forum?

This is Sikh forum...not Anthropology 101.

Jatt is a race? Great. Who cares. Does it have any relevance to Sikhism? Does anyone here really care about the other's race?

Please talk about Guru Sahiban's message and leave these useless topics behind.

[Mann_Jatt]

I think this is going to be one of my last posts on this subject. Thank you ADMIN for not closing or deleting this thread.

Punjabi Predator, I do treat people as equals I cannot empathise this point enough, the only thing I choose to do is preserve my Jatt heritage, I believe it is a personal choice and don't see how I am hurting or discriminating against anybody else. I have other reasons for making this decision.

I respect you very much and I do agree with most things you have said, I am far from a perfect Sikh, I openly admit this. I am not Amritdhari as you can maybe tell and I don't think I ever will be. I would never disrespect the taking of Amrit while I hold my views. I don't lie or hide my views, at this moment in life I feel they are justified, but maybe I will change my way of thinking when I am older.

Gursharan Singh Ji, I am a fool and don't know much about Gurmat/Gurbani to make any references. I can only discuss this subject from a historical angle. With regards to Aman Kaur penji's post, it was beautiful and a truthful post. I agree with pretty much all of it, I HATE the corruption of Sikh institutes, not only from a "caste" point but how materialistic it has become, money is the talk of Gurdwaras these days. On a personal note, I don't feel I am breaking away from much of what is said in the post, like I said above, maybe I will realise when I start reading Gurbani.

In these difficult times for Sikhi I am glad that there are some real true Sikhs that follow Guru Ji’s writings to the letter.

As for Randip Singh, I leave it up to the sangat to form their own opinions about him, you only have to Google "randip

singh jatt" so see this man's internet crusade against Jatts.

[PunjabiPredator]

I think this is going to be one of my last posts on this subject. Thank you ADMIN for not closing or deleting this thread.

Punjabi Predator, I do treat people as equals I cannot empathise this point enough, the only thing I choose to do is preserve my Jatt heritage, I believe it is a personal choice and don't see how I am hurting or discriminating against anybody else. I have other reasons for making this decision.

I respect you very much and I do agree with most things you have said, I am far from a perfect Sikh, I openly admit this. I am not Amritdhari as you can maybe tell and I don't think I ever will be. I would never disrespect the taking of Amrit while I hold my views. I don't lie or hide my views, at this moment in life I feel they are justified, but maybe I will change my way of thinking when I am older.

Gursharan Singh Ji, I am a fool and don't know much about Gurmat/Gurbani to make any references. I can only discuss this subject from a historical angle. With regards to Aman Kaur penji's post, it was beautiful and a truthful post. I agree with pretty much all of it, I HATE the corruption of Sikh institutes, not only from a "caste" point but how materialistic it has become, money is the talk of Gurdwaras these days. On a personal note, I don't feel I am breaking away from much of what is said in the post, like I said above, maybe I will realise when I start reading Gurbani.

In these difficult times for Sikhi I am glad that there are some re

al true Sikhs that follow Guru Ji’s writings to the letter.

As for Randip Singh, I leave it up to the sangat to form their own opinions about him, you only have to Google "randip singh jatt" so see this man's internet crusade against Jatts.

I think you will understand better when you grow up too. You say you have a Jatt heritage and if other people will start telling you where they came from and how they are better then Jatt's which will come back to not treating everyone equal. The way you described a Jatt in the other post was not right and even you know that you described there features and how different they are which is not being equal is it? You don't see any of our Gurus talking about what class/race they came from and picking out from the sangat which one had better features during there time or even mentioning it. You should start reading books about Sikhism instead of looking into the past and seeing how far you can trace Jatt's back and there history. If you want to be a Sikh then read about Sikhism and ask people about it if you want to be a Jatt then don't bother being a Sikh and keep researching about it as much as you want but remember one thing Mann Jatt you are not treating people equal and you can define Jatt in as many ways as you want whether it is being a caste/religion/class/race/color it still comes back to the same thing which is not treating everyone equal. I showed you what Guru Nanak said now you can either follow your Guru Ji's teaching which you say you have high respect for or follow your own path which is what is making our religion more corrupt with people fighting over class/race/caste and other barriers which you want to perserve. I live in Florida and they have divided one Gurdwara here they have people without kesh (long hair) doing all the kirtan and stuff while the people that actually have kesh (long hair) are not even aloud in the Gurdwara. This is the main thin

g dividing our panth caste/race/class and other barriers.

Punjabi Predator, I do treat people as equals I cannot empathise this point enough, the only thing I choose to do is preserve my Jatt heritage, I believe it is a personal choice and don't see how I am hurting or discriminating against anybody else. I have other reasons for making this decision.

You are hurting every person that has came from different religion or backgrounds to be equal and to be part of something that he/she will not be determinded by there background but by being a Sikh. What are your other reasons in making this decision please share. :TH:

I respect you very much and I do agree with most things you have said, I am far from a perfect Sikh, I openly admit this. I am not Amritdhari as you can maybe tell and I don't think I ever will be. I would never disrespect the taking of Amrit while I hold my views. I don't lie or hide my views, at this moment in life I feel they are justified, but maybe I will change my way of thinking when I am older.

Gursharan Singh Ji, I am a fool and don't know much about Gurmat/Gurbani to make any references. I can only discuss this subject from a historical angle. With regards to Aman Kaur penji's post, it was beautiful and a truthful post. I agree with pretty much all of it, I HATE the corruption of Sikh institutes, not only from a "caste" point but how materialistic it has beco

me, money is the talk of Gurdwaras these days. On a personal note, I don't feel I am breaking away from much of what is said in the post, like I said above, maybe I will realise when I start reading Gurbani.

I don't expect you to know everything about Sikhism which is what this forum is about to understand something. I admit i never read the Guru Granth Saab but i know the basics and i have read alittle about what our Gurus wanted from us on the internet. I think you should do that too no-one is telling you to remember everything our Guru's said or read the Gurbani just know that basic stuff of Sikhism so if someone asks you, you will know whats right and wrong instead of telling them the Jatt race/class view.

As for the people on this forum please share your views and not insult people not everyone knows everything about Sikhism. We will always have to ask questions some maybe easy questions and some maybe hard to answer. We don't all have the same amount of knowledge about our religion and some might not be old enough to either understand and want to know things or have been told wrong by there parents or people around them. So please share your opinions and don't use this topic to insult each other. :TH:

[PunjabiPredator]

Sat Sri Akal:

And why is this topic of any relevance to this forum?

This is Sikh forum...not Anthropology 101.

Jatt is a race? Great. Who cares. Does it have any relevance to Sikhism? Does anyone here really care about the other's race?

Please talk about Guru Sahiban's message and leave these useless topics behind.

This topic is not useless and has relevance to many Sikhs who still believe in the caste/class/race and other barriers that our Guru Ji told us to forget about. If we don't talk about it then when will this issue ever be addressed and resolved? We should be enforcing our Guru Ji's message which is treating everyone equal and since Sikhism is about everyone being equal thats why we should have this topic not many people believe in being equal and refer back to caste/class/race and other barriers, and some people listen to there parents or listen to there friends and end up following different caste/class/race and other barriers and don't understand what Sikhism is about. There is no point in forgetting about this topic and moving on to Khalistan and other issues when our people are divided over this thing and don't know much about Sikhism.