Caste System

[joga singh]

khatri brahman shudra vaish updesh chau varna ko sanjha

its necessary , just like doctor, inspector, surgeon, driver, for god to play the game.

[PunjabiPredator]

Had you visited the site you would've seen a line by line translation of all the bhagats Gurbani 

totally agree that constructive discussions help put people on the right path but i was actually speaking about certain pro-caste people that were consistently visiting sikhi sites & forums to push their pro-caste agenda- these certain few people are just pushing their own pro-caste agenda and are not in the slightest way interested in learning about Sikhi.

Peace

I visited the site its nice what you have done by translating it. :TH: I agree with you on the pro-caste agenda thing the people that know its wrong and still want to follow it are a waste of time trying to reason with them.

[Mann_Jatt]

Hi Punjabi Predator, you may of missed the question I asked you:

Let me ask you a question, do you believe it is ok for a Sikh to marry outside their faith?? According to your stand on equality this shouldn't really be a problem, am I correct???

Thanks

[PunjabiPredator]

Hi Punjabi Predator, I still don't think you will ever understand what I am saying about preserving my culture and heritage. Let me ask you a question, do you believe it is ok for a Sikh not marry outside their faith?? According to your stand on equality this shouldn't really be a problem, am I correct???

Here's an article you might be interested in, this relates to my stand on this issue:

QUOTE 

You Took My Breath Away 

Anont Singh Sun Jun 02

 

"This is how the Indian family system is structured. This is how the larger Indian community is organized in its caste system. Here I don't mean to neglect or absolve the Jat culture of Punjabi Sikh of its xenophobia. I also know how rampant the caste system is in the Sikhs, Jat or non-Jat." ('Marching Backwards With Élan And Energy', May 30)

Wow. We would not tolerate discrimination against females, untouchables, the disabled etc., but it is open season on Jats! Are we to accept anti-Jat chauvinism because it is fashionable for the self-proclaimed Sikh elite? How is this inconsistency squared?

What is this "xenophobia" of the Jats? The usual stereotype is of a most hospitable, generous and outgoing people, very happy to mix with, and emigrate to other cultures. They are reluctant to have their children intermarry with others. This is a trait shared with many other ethnic groups of ancient pedigree. This is not considered anti-social except by those eager to breakdown successful social s

tructures, and/or are envious of Jat characteristics.

I.J. Singh has usually enough in his articles to defend himself on either side of the argument. Here he makes no apology for suddenly attacking Jats in the most casual, offhand manner. Can we expect a suitably unbiased arbitration of some future Gurudwara dispute, when such a glaring bias is apparent?

Similar attacks on Loren Chan Singh were recently displayed. I feel proud that we have at least one Chinese Sikh who is articulate and courageous enough to call a spade a spade. Punjabi biased chauvinism trying to cloak itself in Sikhi - there is no other way to describe it - was the response to his very reasonable initial, and subsequent, articles. He was further logically supported by Alice Basarke's insightful essay.

Two types of ethnic chauvinism here: pro-Punjabi and anti-Jat.

This is surprising. Jats are the majority community amongst Punjabi Sikhs. Their infusion in the early days of the Nanak Panth irreversibly changed its character and ethos. Many Khalsa ideals correspond to general Jat characteristics, such as egalitarianism, kes, vigorous defense, etc. They are not part of the "caste" system that is bludgeoning Jats these days. They are a separate ethnic entity, maintaining their bloodline through socially enforced endogamy.

Central Asian Jats (a.k.a Scythians, etc.) who migrated to South Asia embraced Hinduism, Islam or Sikhi as their religion. They remain Jats. Where in the Guru Granth Sahib is it stated that one must give up one's ethnic identity to be a Sikh? Neither can I find any mention that one has to embrace the Punjabi culture to be a Sikh. There is ample condemnation of caste loyalty.

Jats, Chinese, Europeans etc. can all be Sikhs, without having to compromise their ethnicity. It is a specious argument to insist otherwise.

It is time to begin examining chauvinisms of all sorts that serve to cause unnecessary friction amongst us. We should be mature enough to accept that people from dif

ferent ethnicities can be Sikhs. Denouncing ethnic identity is not a prerequisite to being a Sikh. That very denunciation is anti-Sikh.

I hope the Sikhe.com editors are wise enough to discourage this ethnic bashing altogether.

Mann_Jatt

You can show me a 100 articles but the point is when you are trying to save your hertiage and your culture which Guru Nanak told you not to, that is not treating everyone equal i am not talking about the caste system here i am talking about your race/class thing you are trying to save. I think Sikh should marry a Sikh regardless of the caste/creed/class/race and other barriers. Are you willing to marry someone that is not from a Jatt race/class background? The article is not right even right you say Jatt is a race/class which is forbidden in Sikhism i showed you what Guru Nanak said. You say that you treat everyone equal is this treating everyone equal?

Jatts are an ethnic group or race, divided into clans which have existed before the times of the caste system, they belong to a group of invaders from Eastern Europe/Central Asia called the Scythians, tribal warriors who were the first people to tame the horse. Rajputs also belong to this group. Jatts settled in Punjab and surrounding areas like Pakistan, Haryana, UP and Rajasthan, you will not find them anywhere else. Most Jatts are Sikh whilst others are Muslim and Hindu.

Jatts have physical and mental characteristics like sharp facial features, build, skin tone, aggressive nature etc.

So I am a Jatt Sikh, Jatt = race and Sikhi = religion, no contradiction.

So since your from a Jatt race you are the only type of person that can have physical and mental cha

racteristics like sharp facial features, build, skin tone, aggressive nature etc? What are the rest of the Sikhs that don't come from a Jatt race? As for your article its not correct you can't argue with what our Guru's and our Guru Granth Saab says which is to get rid of race which is what you want to perseve and caste/creed/class and other barriers. I think its about time you made up your mind which one you are either you can listen to Guru Nanak or you can listen to some guy that made up an article which is against everything Guru Nanak said and believed in.

This is surprising. Jats are the majority community amongst Punjabi Sikhs. Their infusion in the early days of the Nanak Panth irreversibly changed its character and ethos. Many Khalsa ideals correspond to general Jat characteristics, such as egalitarianism, kes, vigorous defense, etc. They are not part of the "caste" system that is bludgeoning Jats these days. They are a separate ethnic entity, maintaining their bloodline through socially enforced endogamy.

Guru Gobind Singh made Khalsa and he was not a Jatt or from a Jatt background. He is the one that told us to keep our Kesh and treat everyone equal. If Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wasn't a Jatt why would he make ideals corresponding to Jatt characteristics? The answer is he didn't he wanted us all to be equal which is the meaning of Khalsa. You said you can't take Amrit because your not the perfect Sikh by reading the article you seem to be the perfect Sikh so why don't you take Amrit and become Khalsa since many ideals correspond to you and not other Sikhs from different backgrounds?

P.S I didn't change any of your words or your article so lets see if you can answer my questions Mann_Jatt

[PunjabiPredator]

Hi Punjabi Predator, you may of missed the question I asked you:

QUOTE 

Let me ask you a question, do you believe it is ok for a Sikh not marry outside their faith?? According to your stand on equality this shouldn't really be a problem, am I correct???

Thanks

I answered the question and i have many questions for you in my previous post lets see if you can answer them. :T:

[Mann_Jatt]

I didn't see many clear cut questions, here are my answers to the ones I could find:

Are you willing to marry someone that is not from a Jatt race/class background?

No, I would have thought you gathered that much by now.

You say that you treat everyone equal is this treating everyone equal?

I do treat people as equals, but if I want to marry someone from the same background as me it's a personal decision don't you think?

So since your from a Jatt race you are the only type of person that can have physical and mental characteristics like sharp facial features, build, skin tone, aggressive nature etc?

No, you get variations in all races.

What are the rest of the Sikhs that don't come from a Jatt rac

e?

I don't know I have only studied my own history.

If Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wasn't a Jatt why would he make ideals corresponding to Jatt characteristics?

An obscure question, I don't see the relevance of it, however the characteristics are positive ones, so if Guru Ji was trying to create the perfect society some characteristics are going to be the same.

You said you can't take Amrit because your not the perfect Sikh by reading the article you seem to be the perfect Sikh so why don't you take Amrit and become Khalsa since many ideals correspond to you and not other Sikhs from different backgrounds?

As I do things which go against the ways of the Khalsa, so I am not going to disrespect the Khalsa panth or be a hypocrite by taking Amrit when I am not fit to do so.

So can you now please answer by question below:

Let me ask you a question, do you believe it is ok for a Sikh to marry outside their faith?? According to your stand on equality this shouldn't really be a problem, am I correct???

[PunjabiPredator]

I didn't see many clear cut questions, here are my answers to the ones I could find:

Are you willing to marry someone that is not from a Jatt race/class background?

No, I would have thought you gathered that much by now.

You said no so you are not treating everyone equal then because you want to marry someone that is Jatt and not a lower race/class then you.

You say that you treat everyone equal is this treating everyone equal?

I do treat people as equals, but if I want to marry someone from the same background as me it's a personal decision don't you think?

If you treated everyone equal like i do you wouldn't have cared what background they were from and no its not a personal decision its more of worrying about your class/race and putting that before your own religion and what your Guru's told you and what the Guru Granth Saab says you are basically disrespecting the Guru's and the Guru Granth Saab.

So since your from a Jatt

race you are the only type of person that can have physical and mental characteristics like sharp facial features, build, skin tone, aggressive nature etc?

No, you get variations in all races.

You call that being equal by talking about what features each type of race could have and may have?

What are the rest of the Sikhs that don't come from a Jatt race?

I don't know I have only studied my own history.

Well according to your Jatt race/class they don't have physical and mental characteristics like sharp facial features, build, skin tone, aggressive nature etc that Jatt's do. Why have you been studying something that your Guru Ji told you not to follow and why don't you study your own religions history.

If Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wasn't a Jatt why would he make ideals corresponding to Jatt characteristics?

An obscure question, I don't see the relevance of it, however the characteristics are positive ones, so if Guru Ji was trying to create the perfect society some characteristics are going to be the same.

If i mention Guru Ji and your class/race it turns into an obscure question how is that when i am asking you why would he make ideas corresponding to Jatt characteristics?

Guru Ji didn't care about what background you came from he didn't say you have to be Jatt to fight with him or another race to sit with him and have langar.

QUOTE

You said you can't take Amrit because your not the perfect Sikh by reading the article you seem to be the perfect Sikh so why don't you take Amrit and become Khalsa since many ideals correspond to you and not other Sikhs from different backgrounds? As I do things which go against the ways of the Khalsa, so I am not going to disrespect the Khalsa panth or be a hypocrite by taking Amrit when I am not fit to do so. Well acording to your article Jatt's are better suited for Khalsa because of there features i don't know why you don't want to take Amrit now. So can you now please answer by question below: Let me ask you a question, do you believe it is ok for a Sikh to marry outside their faith?? According to your stand on equality this shouldn't really be a problem, am I correct??? I think Sikhs should marry Sikhs because our religion teaches us to be equal where as some other religions don't treat people equal like Hinduism or Muslim and others. I don't think people should be marrying each other because of there class/race. Its no different from the caste system in caste system its about being a better worker/ having a better background and in class/race your talking about having better features then another person and also people that follow the caste system want to marry someone from there caste and you want to do the same with your race/class. I don't call that being equal at all which is what our Guru Ji's got rid of in the first place. I got questions for you Mann Jatt 1) Do you call it being equal by saying you have certain characteristics as a Jatt and other Sikhs don't have? 2) Is your class/background more important then your religion? 3) Why are you not listening to what Guru Nanak told you which was to get rid of the class/caste/race and other barriers? 4) Do you believe everything in that article you showed me? 5) Why do you call yourself or consider yourself a Sikh when Sikhs don't regonize class/race/caste and other barriers and Sikhs believe that everyone is equal which is why Sikhism was formed in the first place? 6) Do you think it is being equal by talking about what type of features Jatt race/class has? 7) What do you think is going to happen if another group of people make up another class/race or follow one from long time ago before Sikhism and start arguing and saying they are a better race then Jatt's and they say they have better characteristics then Jatt's. Do you think we will all get along good and still be Sikhs? Do you think our Gurdwara's and people won't be divided by this just as some are divided over the caste system today and start fighting with each other? P.S The meaning of Jat is A member of a peasant caste residing in the Punjab and other areas of northern India and Pakistan, comprising Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh groups. (Caste Version) A member of an Indo-European people widely scattered throughout the northwest of the Indian subcontinent and consisting of Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs (Class/Race Version) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jat Hi veers, I am really surprised at the complete and utter misunderstanding of Jatts in reference to caste So now you know Mann_Jatt that Jat can also mean caste too which is what Sant Ji was refering to in the quote below and if you didn't know he was a farmer before he started the movement. Sant jee said "General Sahib, You've commanded very large armies. I'm a stupid Jat (farmer). What do I know about these things? I don't think its going to make much sense if he was saying I'm a stupid race or class when he said Jat he most likely mean't farmer because thats what he was doing during that time. So Sant Ji didn't recognize your class/race because he didn't make a reference to it and he didn't recognize the caste system because he said it as a joke to General Sahib when he was refering to being a farmer. :wub:

[randip singh]

Hi Punjabi Preadator,

I persoanally see nothing wrong in a Sikh marrying a non-Sikh.............BUT unfortunately most of the main religions out there i.e. Islam and Christianity do not view non-Muslims and Non-Christian (respectively) as equals............that leads to trouble.............

Sikhi on the other hand tries to give everyone a fair chance............Hinduism definitely does not as it locks you into a pre-ordained destiny ascribed to past deeds..............much like the race argument does............

Hi Maan,

Just a couple of queestions,

1) Have you researched Sikhi and Sikh History as much as you have researched Jatt "History"?

2) Also try doing some searched of Randip Singh where I have been highly critical of Ramgarhias, Lubhanas, Ravidasia, Bhatras, Bhamans, Khatris too and not just Jatts?

.....................I hate castism and racism in all its forms...............especially that which uses Sikhism to back it up.!

[PunjabiPredator]

Hi Punjabi Preadator,

I persoanally see nothing wrong in a Sikh marrying a non-Sikh.............BUT unfortunately most of the main religions out there i.e. Islam and Christianity do not view non-Muslims and Non-Christian (respectively) as equals............that leads to trouble.............

Sikhi on the other hand tries to give everyone a fair chance............Hinduism definitely does not as it locks you into a pre-ordained destiny ascribed to past deeds..............much like the race argument does............

I don't mind Sikhs marrying Non Sikhs either if the Non Sikhs can treat everyone equal. I prefer Sikhs marrying Sikhs because our religion tells us to treat everyone equal regardless of there caste/race/class and other barriers. :TH:

Admin Note: Caste system is not allowed in Sikhi, Guru Nanak Dev ji clearly states it in Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is pointless to discuss/argue about such a topic, as it leads to arguements. Topic closed.

[randip singh]

Hi Punjabi Preadator....................I can see you feel strongly about the caste issue..................we are having a debate about it on the following link...........................

http://www.sikh-history.com/cgi-bin/Ultima...ic;f=1;t=001850

Note to log in or register here you will have to have a proper name id. B Singh or I Singh etc will do.

Mod -10 : Topic merged from Randip singh's new topic. No more discussions are to take place regarding caste on sikhsangat.com