ghorandhar

Why spread all that chooth? Some things never change, to be fair veer jee its not just you. S1ngh has spoken rubbish aswell. So S1ngh you are saying if you are from a rural background you cant become a parcharak? what would you say about Sant jarnail Singh Binderwala? Can you provide a qoute where it says in the panthic Sikh rehit maryada that you can eat meat? You seem to mix the words missionary college and missionarys. The missionary college cant be responsible for what any of their students say. However people mentioned like ghaga, Gulshan, Prof Darshan Singh are not even students. Why would the missionary college declare national black day against the dasam granth when its translates the dasam granth and hands out free copies? you support the akal takhat by saying they have banned people talking against the dasam granth but will u support the akal takhat against doing parkash of the dasam granth? atleast be consistent in your views on the Akal takhat. SGPC have only published the rehit maryada, its not our fault you dont know the difference between publishers and writers. Its not hard really, in first few pages it normally says in bold wrting publisher, you cant miss it. Missionary colleges were not even in existence in 1984. You dont seem to know anything about the colleges. Ropar missionary college had its first students in 1984. The only college fully working is the shahid missionary college of Amritsar. But thats an SGPC college which has been around for a long time. but it has nothing to do with the other colleges who are also independant from each other. Intersting who you mention baba Bidhi chand dal who eat meat. lol. Because the Missionary college does not take out a nagara and sing their own praises, it does not mean they are not fighting against dhedharis. The following link is an example. http://www.panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/3195/2007-03-28.html Singh Sahib giani Randjoad Singh is a missionary, he studied with giani pinderpal Singh and was the first students of Ropar missionary college. If there are sakhia which are against gurbani, its only correct to question them. I think you should go to the college and find out how they teach sooraj parkash etc instead of making pure assumptions.

Veer jee thanks for another excellent post. Veer Kam Jee I think the third paragraph will give you your answer.

what about when u read gurbani, scinse ur just reading bilaval mahala 5 and then reading the bani are u going against hukkam because you havent sung it in raag??? All the mahapurkhs who did kirtan and not in raag are u saying all of them were doing manmat?? Veer jee why are you trying to mix the maryada of kirtan and paath? they are totally different and have different rules. For example a shlok or pauri in kirtan is a complete shabad. When doing paath or taking a hukamnama the all the shloks and then finally the pauri would complete the shabad. In kirtan you can give udharana from other shabads even though the complete shabad is not given (simply one or 2 lines) however when doing paath you cant give udharana. Kirtan starts with 4 baag also known as shabad chounki, paath does not. In Sri Raag Guru maharaj before the shabad makes it clear how to pronounce mehla pehla. Rather than having the pehla written as an ikha (1) the word phela is actually written out. The Reason for this was to show Sikhs how the numbers should be pronounced. Sometimes I think that guru maharaj knew there would be people like me trying to change maryada. In gurbani there are also examples where guru maharaj is telling us that these raags have not been put into gurbani for the fun of it, rather these raags must be sung accordin to maryada. Kar naad Bilawal Raag, har utam har prabh gavia.

Raj musicals is really Good. Bhai Kultar Singh used to get his vaja from there and Bhai Avtar Singh jee used to play Raj Musicals tous. Principle Dyal Singh jee Rakab Ganj Sahib Vidyala also buys instruments from them. I have done kirtan on both a raj musicals and DMS vaja, they are both great. Personally I would say go for raj musicals. Below is the DMS website if u want to order from them http://www.indianmusicalinstruments.com/

You could try gurdial and Sons, ill pm you the address as soon as I find it. Im not sure they make Sarangis but they make all the other tanti Saaj. They are based in Jullandhar. However Its best if you know someone who has knowledge of the saaj. He might just sell you a dodgy one (you will find this problem all over India). There are loads of places in Jullandhar like Calcutta music house, gujranwala etc, but there dilrubas etc are not the best, im not sure about sarangi. Ill try and find there address and send them to you. You could go Jwaadi Taksal in Ludhiana. Its not far from Jullandhar. They Sell instruments really cheap because baba jee does not keep a profit on the saaj. At the Taksal you might want to speak to Principle Sukhwant Singh and ask him for a recommendation. He will take his time out to give you advise. If you have relatives in Delhi, the best saaj can be obtained from Raj musicals. The are expensive, but there saaj are one of the best.

Veer Inder Singh jee ill read it. Im sure its not anything new which I have not read about it him. Like I said before I have issues with these people and its sad how such people have fallen from grace. (there seems to be alot people like him collapsing) I dont think their ideology will last however. Its people like Sidar Kapur Singh who will maintain the respect of the panth, not Gurtej Singh. Personally I think there are alot of people looking to become famous. Dalip Singh is another person. He attacks Gurtej Singh but then adds so much other crap. His writings on the Zafarnama and Banda Singh bahadur are totally false.

Ghorandhar ji Sainapat Kavi writes that Guru sahib was injured. This is in joti jot samavan chapter. He writes that Guru sahib came to darbar to see sangat after three days and said that he was fine. In continuation Kavi sainapat writes that Guru ji told sangat about his departure from this world. Guru kian sakhian state the same. These are accounts of bhats who were inj attendance of Guru sahib's court. In one of your posts you mentioned about Gurtej singh. Can we know who is that Gurtej singh? Veer jee I agree, I think thats what I wrote. There is no doubt from Sainapati etc that guru jee made a a full recovery. I have not come across anything in Sainapati which refers to Guru jee using a bow and wounds opening. Did you come across this? If sainapti did not write this, It makes you wonder whther this story of the wounds reopening being true. I think its the Gurtej Singh who supports kala Afghana. (I dont think there is any other Gurtej Singh who writes) However I have issues with him and Dalip Singh. Dalip Singh is quick to attack Gurtej Singh, however Dalip Singh has also made negative remarks about the DAsam granth (esp his comments in referance to the Zaffarnama where he has manipulated the bani to prove his point). I made this comment at the start of the post that I have issues with them. This talk of grammer of Gurbani is just a big shosha( Crap). SGGS testifes that. Harinder singh has stated truth. Naam japna is the essence. In your opinion maybe, however if people want to learn, they will look at all resources. If you think its crap, dont read it.

Bhai Harinder Singh jee, its important to do nam simran however its also important to preserve our history, If simply do nam simran then what is the difference between us and those sadhus who guru jee said: kahi ri ban kojhan jayee? If doing reseach is maya then what will you say to people like Dr Ganda Singh who preserved and photocopyed Guru Sahibs hukamnamas and puratan writings? We attach everything to maya. People like Kavi Santokh Singh (whether we agree with everything hes written or not) if followed your statement would have not documented alot of important ithass, its the same with sanapati, Kesar Singh Chibbar etc. The lack of research and documentation has been fatal in preserving our history. Its just my opinion Veer jee. Veer jee the best place to get the books from is Singh Brothers in Amritsar, you can order online. Sainapti writes that the pathan would come everyday to the darbar and would utter sweet words, however never got the chance to attack. The Pathan realised that guru jee was alone in the evenings in his tent and this was the best time to attack. Guru maharaj knowing the plan and knowing that the Pathan was outside the tent actually called him into the tent. Guru jee asked the Pathan to sit down and gave him parshad. The Pathan then attacked guru jee stabbing him, on being attacked guru jee jumped up taking his kirpan out of his miyan and killed the Pathan. Guru jee then called the Sikhs who all came running to the tent. Guru jee then told the Singhs that there were 2 other Pathans who were with him and they were trying to escape, The Singhs caught up with them and in the fight the 2 Pathans were killed. The Singhs were worried that guru jee had been wounded, however guru jee said that Akal purakh has saved me. There is no mention of Guru jee later firing an arrow and his wounds opening etc, Sainapati simply says that Guru jee was in perfect health, guru jee was stabbed on August 18th 1708 and recovered fully in 10 days. (Dhadi Nathmal also does not mention wounds opening or guru jee passing away by such injurys, in fact he does not even mention the Pathan). Before Gurgaddi being passed to Guru Granth Sahib jee, Guru Gobind Singh jee told the Sikhs that he was being summoned back to Akal Purakh. There is a book written by Dhian Singh (which I dont have with me). Its claimed he had the records of the Brittish Surgeon and published it in his book. Dr Ganda Singh jee qoutes from Dhian Singh that a local doctor treated guru jee for the stab wounds, Bahadur Shah on hearing guru jee was wounded sent the British doctor. He reached Nanded one day after the attack and re stitched the wounds. He was paid 10 gold coins daily and stayed with guru jee for 10 days. In Septemeber Bahadur Shah came to visit Guru jee. In October Guru jee said that he had been summoned, the Sikhs were upset and thats when guru jee consoled the Sikhs and praised the Khalsa. Sainapati writes that guru jee said the following: Khalsa is my form, I am only concerned with the Khalsa.I have passed my light to the Khalsa who would appear till eternity. Khalsa is my form and I ever abide in Khalsa, who is pure hearted... (if you read Sri Gur Sobha you can read everything guru jee said to the Khalsa) In the Evening Guru jee told the Sikhs to eat langar early. Guru jee then explained to the Sikhs they should never fear death. At midnight Guru jee called the Sikhs into the darbar. Guru jee told the Sikhs he would now merge with Akal Purakh. Guru jee Said: 'Waheguru jee ka Khalsa, Waheguru jee kee Fateh', for the last time and merged with Akal Purakh. The Sikhs then cremated Guru jees body before dawn that very morning. The above is the account given by Sainapati in Sri Gur Sobha. He does say who the pathans were or who sent them, however its normally claimed that it was Wazir Khan. I think its correct to say it was Wazir Khan, if it was Bahadur Shah he would not have sent his own doctor and Bahadur Shah out of fear of the Sikhs would not have tried to meet guru jee. Dhadi Nathmal in Amarnama does not contradict anything sanapati says. Dhadi Nathmal was a dhadi in guru jess darbar from Guru Hargobind jees time.

Veer jee you want to look at Sri Gur Sobha by Sanapati (edited by Dr Ganda Singh) and Amarnama by Nathmal Dhadi. The latter has been translated by Dalip Singh in his book Guru Gobind Singh jee. I felt Dalip Singh made some good points in the book, but there are alot of inaccurate stuff (the account of the last 30 days is Good thought). Gurtej Singh has also translated it. I think Amarnama has also been published by Piara Singh padam. Both the Amarnama and Sri Gur Sonha are eyewitness accounts and confirm that Guru Gobind Singh jee did not die from stab wounds. Hope this helps.

Veer je by talking down to your fellow brothers what will you achieve? But to talk down about naam simran and gurbani is a different issue all together. I dont think you should discount the power of nam or gurbani, if you dont have bishwash in it, please dont talk it down.....what was guru Nanak Dev jee doing in the jail of saidpur? What was guru Arjan Dev jee doing when Sulhi Khan tryed to attack harmander Sahib? They were not getting out the kirpana veer jee? Our history proves the power of nam simran. When Bhai Dalla offered his army to fight the mughals why did Guru Gobind Singh jee not take up his support....it comes back to being a sant my friend. The Khalsa Was created to defend veer jee, not to eradicate or destroy, a // is made by a Sikh in defence not in attack, for example in bachittar natak guru maharaj says jabai ban lagoo tabai rosh jagioo. Guru Gobind Singh jee who you said created the Khalsa to eradicate/destroy tyranny yet Guru maharaj never physically went out and attacked anyone. There is a difference between fighting to protect the poor and weak and eradicating tyranny. You can never eradicate or destroy tyranny, the panj choor (which are the root to tyranny) are here as a test, if the khalsa was created to eradicate tyranny then its failed. The point is that the Khalsa was never created to eradicate it, the Khalsa was created so that when all hope had failed, there was Akal Purakh kee fauj who would stand up, the Khalsa did not roam around looking for dush to fight against. You may feel that im making a minor issue out of an ideological belief, however there is a huge different in my opinion. I can give you more examples: Guru Gobind Singh jee offered to do veechar with emperor Auranzeb, why would you offer discussions with the very person you want to eradicate (as you put it)? Banda Singh bahadur before every battle offered discussions and peaceful resolutions rather than battle. You might call doing naam simran and doing chaupi sahib da paath as flower power sikhi, but it was this flower power Sikhi which is the reason that Baba Deep Singh jees fought when his head was severed from his body. If you go to Damdama Sahib and read ithass you will see how many years of kamai Baba Deep Singh jee did. Breaking every rule of gurmat will not help you achieve anything.

Vahejeo I disagree with what you are saying. I agree it should not be forgotten that although kirtan in non raag is still hari jas, however I dont understand how you can say a particular style of kirtan is not hukam of guru sahib. I think nearly 90% of bani is in raags, the whole structure of the Guru granth Sahib jee is based on the raags (take the raags out and there is no structure) and the Raag mala is the first documentation of gurmat sangeet giving us important info on the thaat etc. Why would guru jee add the raag before every shabad if there Was no need for it? Just as the hukam of guru maharaj is contained in the shabab (for example naam japna) the hukam of how to sing the shabad is contained by writing the raag. Guru jees hukam of doing kirtan in raags goes further by even telling us the ghar which kirtan should be performed in. (why add the raag and ghar?) So how can we ignore this hukam? In gurbani there are alot of shabads telling us about the importance of raags: Raga vich Sri raag hai, jih sach dhari piyar. Ang 83 Har utam har prabh gavai, kar naad bilawal raag. ang 849 Malar seetal raag hai, har diyai shant hoe. Ang 1283 Dhan soo raag sorangerh, alaapat sabh tikh jai. Ang 958 Can you imagine someone singing the shabad which says to do kirtan in raag bilawal and its not being done, or they are singing that malaar is a peaceful raag, yet they are singing something else. There are other shabads which give us the upma of these raags. Further in the Dasam granth and Sarbloh granth we see many raags being written by Guru Gobind Singh jee, some bidwan like Bhai Balbir Singh jee even say Guru Gobind Singh jee knew over 1000 raags. In the Dasam granth you also have shabads which tell you the style of raag which will be sung. for example, khyal patshahi dasmi, mittar piyari noo har mooreeda da khena. Guru jee has told us that khyal should be sung. I also dont understand how you can say that raags are slow. I assume you mean drupad kirtan by this. I think its really hard to find drupad kirtan and most kirtani dont know how do kirtan in these taals. alot of kirtani like Gurmeet Singh Shaant for example do alot of khyal kirtan and in Drut laih rather than drupad which is in vilampat. Drut laih is really fast and when raagis do kirtan in this speed people start complaining they cant understand what they are saying. According to gurmat sangeet you cant put simran into the shabad. There is no maryada for this and no puratan kirtani will do this or were taught this. There are shabads which would alllow you to do simran for example kaval nain madaran bhen (this shabad has waheguru written in it) however, you will not find any kirtani or any puratan maryada which allows this. The panthic sikh rehit maryada only allows kirtan in raag and does not say you can do kirtan and add in Waheguru. No one is saying you cant do waheguru simran on its own, but maryada is maryada and puratan kirtanis say that Waheguru simran was never added into shabads, this new form of kirtan started during the 1940s. No one is allowed to add Waheguru simran at harmander sahib either, this is not something new which has been created either. At harmander Sahib they even dont allow you do the sargam.

There are some people who have issues with non raag because alot of these tunes are what our ustads call filmy tunes. I think there is a bigger issue here, if our gurus told us to do kirtan in raags, why should we turn around and say flanna flanna did flanna flanna? Is our gurus hukam not enough for us? The same people who would say you have to take amrit and keep your kesh to be a Sikh or reach sach khand also say we can rectify our guru jees hukam and not do kirtan in Raag. So following one hukam is a must, but the hukam on doing kirtan on raag......ohh ta badhoo kam hai. If we bending the rules and start saying you can take amrit if you dont keep your kesh, the panth would not stand for such beliefs, the reason is because of the hukam of our guru maharaj. In my opinion the same applies to doing kirtan in raag, saying that the main thing is that your mind is focused on the shabad in fair enough, however when our guru maharaj hukam is for example: har utam har prabh gavia, kar naad bilawal raag. Are we respecting out Gurus hukam? If we accept guru maharajs hukam in not eating meat, bhang etc but when it comes to following the hukam on doing kirtan in raags, why do we find such a difficulty?

Its ok for us to be greedy, ask for promotions, look for better paid jobs etc, but until a granthi starves to death and cant provide for his family, I dont think people will be satisfied. If you go and speak to bhai Balbir Singh, Prof Kartar Singh etc, they will tell you it takes over 20 years to get vidiya and then over 20 years to perfect it. If you started learning when you were 10 years old, you will be 50 until you can be anywhere near reaching the level you should be. Should all those years of hard work be rewarded with bad accomodation, rubbish wages and then complaints that ragis are greedy? If we lived the lives they were living we would not survive one day, no tv, playstation etc... There are some raagis who have not at the standard they should be, but just as another veer jee said: Pay peanuts, get monkeys." Our gurdwaras are running and open from early in the morning to late at night because these so called greedy people...so whether they have the vidya or not, we can attend gurdwaras because of them. I takes about 3-5 years to do a degree (depending on your subject). compare that to a raagi, yet the person with a degree would not work for a company even if they gave 4 times what a Ragi gets. Yet the raagis are greedy? maybe if we put in 20 years of learning kirtan (and forget the years in perfecting the vidya because that will total 40) sacrificing a career (like Bhai Kultar Singh jee has done) and see what its really like being a raagi with such vidya. Our lack of respect for raagis and calling them greedy and questioning why should we give them money is why our tanti saaz and all our heritage is almost lost. We have lost so much because of this attidute. Go and find out how much it costs to buy a tous, saranda, sarangi, rabab etc... most of them will never be able to afford one. IF you dont like what the raagis are doing, tussi kam chakoo tanti saaja di nal.

There are no rules! Vaheguru has gave us a path and there are certain things we have to stick to to follow that path and they are NOT rules. Well then please do explain the difference between hukkam and rules? Is it not Satgurus hukkam to follow Satguru Granth Sahib? Then if so why do we disobey his hukkam by not doing things in accordance to his will, which hqas been written in black and white. Please dont try and airy fairyfy things. There is no if no but, only Satgurus law and hukkam which is to follow Satguru |Granth Sahib the way satguru jis swaroop is, and that is to recite the Vaar of Raag Asa in raag asa, otherwise its pretty pointless. Its like me writing a song and its music and then others playing different music to the song i wrote. Follow the Hukkam of satguru not ur own manmat! so basicly ur saying that bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji was on the rong boat, bhai jeevan singh ji on the wrong boat? umm no..i hope we can all agree there avastha was at a muuuchhhhh higher level then us and they didnt just do kirtan in raag....im all down for raag i love it and even do kirtan in it sometimes but that doesnt mean if u dont do kirtan in raag ur doing it rong..at the time of guru sahib raag is what people liked so to get our elephant like minds to actually pay attention to guru sahibs bani they did it in a way people liked...once they herd the bani they no longer cared about the tune but cared for the bani! also whats the point of fighting over tunes when the true bliss will come from the anhad shabad, which we will achieve when we stop fighting and start doing simran.. Of course you can listen to Asa Di Vaar whenever you want. Theres no restriction as to when you can and cannot read or listen Gurbani. Just because Asa Di Vaar is recited in the morning doesn't mean that the only time you can listen to it is in the morning. If I feel like doing Japji Sahib ji da paath, does that mean I have to wait until the wee hours of the morning? Will I not have the same effect of Japji Sahib if I do it in the afternoon or evening. Guru Sahib's bani is a treasure waiting to be opened...regardless of the time of day or night. maybe this is off topic, and i dont mean to start an arguement or anything, but there are some banis that have a specific time to do them..... and if u do them at wrong time, they leave wrong results....... i think the sing is talking about chandi di vaar....read sant baba harnam singh jis book.. Veer jee you are asking what is the point over fighting over tunes, however we are not fighting over tunes, we are fighting to keep alive the message of Guru jee. If people start saying there is no need for kirpana today because people needed them in them 300 years ago and not today, will you take yours off because its what the majority say? Guru jee never did things to please the majority. The problem which alot of people have is that guru jee told us to do kirtan in raag, it was not that people liked raag back in the gurus time which makes us want to do kirtan in raag, its the fact that guru jee is telling us to do kirtan in raag, just as guru Gobind Singh jee told us to be panj kakkari Khalsa (including a kirpan, not tied to some string as people do today). Har utam har prabh Gavia, kar naad bilawal Raag. Why should we go against guru jees updesh as above? Its important to do simran just as it is important to live in the real world and try to contribute to preserving the heritage and message which our gurus gave us, there is no point doing what the brahmans did when babar attacked them. They started doing their tantar and mantars rather than addressing the issue, which was picking up their shaster. Today our battle is to preserve our heritage and kirtan and we have lost so much already, if we are going to sit and do simran and ignore the issues we face in preserving our history, then we are no different from the brahmans who watched babar walk all over their heritage and people.

Alot of people in the past have written against Singh Sahib Joginder Singh jee Vedanti and they have continued to here. You cant agree with everything a person does however I feel a balance reflection of Joginder Singh Vendanti is never given. Just as people have started making assumptions about Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh jee, alot of assuptions are made about Joginder Singh Vendanti. I feel sorry for people who become jathedhar of the Akal Takhat. The panth never takes them seriously and just as Badal Clan put pressure on Singh Sahib jee So do all other Jathebandis. The jathebandis are no better than badal. All this calling for Singh Sahib do to a particular thing or resign is a disgrace. (for example the recent statements made by the sant samaj regarding the Sacha Sauda affair) On the one hand we call for panthic ekta and on the other we give the jathedhars ultimatums. The jathedhar can never win because what ever decision he makes there will always be a jathebandi who supports it (because their ideology supports that view) and others who do not (because their ideology does not support it). There have been times where I feel Singh Sahib jee could have done something, however rather than complianing I went straight to him and rather than coming online and attacking Singh Sahib jee, certain issues can be resolved by veechar. This assasination of JAthedhars which have continued over the past few years is making the panth look stupid. our issues need to be resolved behind doors. For some reason we seem to enjoy washing our dirty laundary in public. Sucha Sauda will never need to worry about the Sikh panth because they know we will continue to knock each others dastar off. I do not think Singh Sahib Vedanti jee always used to do as Badal wished. Some Good examples is the whole Sacha Sauda affair, Badal was clearly upset Singh Sahib jee did not put the issue to bed. Singh Sahib jee also had pressure on excommunicating Maan for his actions at Akal Takhat 2 years ago by Badal Group, however once again he refused. Singh Sahib jees refusal to bow down to Badal on his speech on Khalistan is another example of him not following Badal, I assume this ultimately cost him his position as Jathehdar. The Jathdhar will never please people because in certain peoples eyes he represented Taksal (where he studied), in others he represented Badal. I personally feel that Singh Sahib jee tried to resolve matters without the Sikh panth's bistee happening and having Sikhs knocking each others dastar off. He had to fight a rogue Jathedhar who is issuing his own hukamnamas and presented his needs for more than one wife, He had Makkar, Badal (junior), Iqbal Singh and Sant samaj holding meetings deciding that changes need to be made regarding the maryada and nanakshai calendar (behind is back while he was in the US), he had to deal with people like kala Afghana, ghagga, etc and he had Prof Darshan Singh who he did not want to call to the Akal Takhat because he was a former jathedhar and it would be bistee on the panth, however the warnings of Singh Sahib jee have been totally ignored. In the 60s,70s,80s and 90s Singh Sahib jee was well known for his research papers and his work with Joginder Singh Talwara on Gurbani, the past 8 years however have made people forget all his work. Petty poltics and tu tu maih maih is all the Singh Sahib has to deal with these days. I felt Singh Sahib Vendati jee could have done things in different ways, however I will not present my views, they can be sent to Singh Sahib jee directly, Im sure I will do the same with Singh Sahib giani gurbachan Singh jee, however when a decision is made by Singh Sahib jee, I feel we should set aside our personal beliefs. I hope Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh jee unites the panth, but I also know that he has an impossible job. He is trying to unite those who dont want to be united. He is trying to lead those who believe they are the leaders, its seems that everyone one feels that Singh Sahib jee has to follow my way or the highway. Waheguru mehar kari.

can someone help ma in finding asa di // in writtne with kirtan notations pleas waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fate There are two books which I have, however im sure others will have published notations of asa di //. Both books which I have are in punjabi. Gurmat Sangeet Sagar (5th volume of the set) is notations of Asa di // by Principle Dyal Singh jee who has been teaching at rakab ganj sahib jee since the 1960s and took over the vidyala from UStad Harditt Singh jee. If you go to Gurmatsangeetproject.com you will find recordings of the notations which will help you when working on the notations. Gurmat Sangeet Sagar Volume 1-4 are different raags and notations and I also recommend it. Sant Baba Sarvan Singh jee Gandarv Dumelli wali published 7 volumes on kirtan. Volume 2 of Sur Simran Sangeet has the Asa di // notations and some shabad notations after the asa di // notations. Singh Brothers have re published Baba jees books. The older publications are cheaper though 20 rupees, while Singh brothers one is 350 rupees :D . The old publications are really hard to find but Singh brothers have done some excellent work in re publishing them. Both Principle Dyal Singh jees and Sant baba Sarvan singh jees books are available in most punjabi book shops. Singh brothers, Chattar Singh Jeevan Singh in Amritsar def have them. I bought mine from New book Company in Jullandhar and Lahore book shop in Ludhiana has these books.

Veer Inder Singh jee ive already given you referance about Sant Attar Singh jee. I never Said Sant Attar Singh jee was a leading member of Singh Sabha Lahore, neither have I read this anywhere, I was referrring to Sant Attar Singh jee before 1902 being apart of the Singh Sabha Reform. (this is what Ive read) You constantly claim I have said things by adding words into my sentences. Ragarding the dasam granth, the reason I raised this point along with that whole list was because I felt it was unfair for you to claim that the Singh Sabha was involved in mundane affairs. Veer jee regarding the dasam granth I was also referring to the work of The Gurmat Granth Parchark Sabha Amritsar, the report was published in 1897. If you are going to continue tu tu maih maih and add words into my sentences im not going to bother to reply. Veer Hardeep_Singh jee, you are right. Its good to do veechara, but what happens is that we get gharam and really worked up, before you know it we are calling other people a 'liar' and 'if you are a Sikh' etc. The veechar becomes really negative and rather than doing something Good for your Sikhi, it wrecks your Sikhi. Singh_1983 jee, alot of people have not formed opinions of Maan Singh over the internet. When I met him through family friends who were close to him, I didnt bow to him or give him money, I Said Fateh with folded hands to Maan Singh. The man flipped and wanted to leave the house. So this is my experience with him. My family and friends who were close to him and they all stay away from him, most of his close people have also left him because everything about him is true. Veer jee if you say we risk our jeevan by saying such things, then we risk our jeevan every morning when we read Swaiyaa: Soor Surardan Shudh Sudhak Sant Samoo anik mati ki, Sari hi desh ko dekh rahoo mat, kaoo na dekiat pran pati ki.

We have discussed this before and no one is willing to explain why the words 'vakar' and 'tul' are not included in the English translation from the panthic Sikh rehit maryada. If ive missed the translation of these words, can someone can show me where these words are in the following qoute from the article: Chapter IV of Sikh Rahit Maryada which deals with Gurdwaras and the maryada to be followed there lays down quite unambiguously therein that no book (pustak) is to be installed at par with Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. (ਸੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੰਥ ਸਾਿਹਬ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਵਾਕਰ ਤੁੱਲ ਿਕਸੇ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਨੂੰ ਅਸਥਾਪਨ ਨਹ ਕਰਨਾ). If these words are included it changes the whole English translation.

Veer jee do you still feel the issues which i listed are mundane affairs? Where someone does good things we should praise them, esp when we have done nothing in comparision. Veer jee Ive given you my referance, Prof Teja Singh published his article in 1944, Sant Attar Singh jee was involved in the Singh Sabha as far as I am concerned and history is concerned. On the one hand you are saying Sant Attar Singh is not political because he was religious (So you are suggesting that you cant be political if you want to be religious) on the other hand you are complaining that the Singh Sabha disowned the stuggle for the Sikh Kingdom (a political issue). It seems everyone fails in your eyes. Veer jee I dont like the idea of comparisions of who is above who. You may have heard of David Courtney, he says something about Indians which is so true. He says that if you have learnt tabla of one ustad and want to learn of another ustad, there is a habbit of belittling your previous ustad. This attitude is similar to your remarks of the Singh sabha, when you do not affiliate to a particular group you try to belittle them. I cant be bothered your negativity.

I went to Manikaran without knowing much of the ithass and went opened minded. On the way you can go to Mandi and Rewalsar Gurdwaras which have important historical significances. On the way to manikara you visit some of the most beautiful places on this earth. However when I got there and tried to find out more about this place, I had alot of questions. Like another veer jee, I felt the place smelt quite bad, but that was not why I questioned the place :D I believe Manikaran is an important Hindu Teerath and one which Hindus are supposed to go to. From what I can remember the story goes like this (sorry for any mistakes, im writing from the top of my head, I wrote out the history which was written on the board onto a piece of paper, but I can find it): Parvati lost her jewellery and it fell into the river, She goes to Shiva and asks him to find it. Shiva goes all over the world to find it but cant find it, he asks all his devotees and they cant find it either. Manikaran was known to have loads of gold, so he trys to trick parvati in giving her one which looked like the one she lost. Parvati realised that it was not the same one and told Shiva to find the real ones. Shiva then finds out the Sheshnag as it and does not know what to do. He then makes Naina Devi (This is the Naina Devi whos mandir is near Keshgarh sahib on the mountain in the background) pargat to go to shesnag. Naina Devi goes to Shesnag who gets really angry and naina devi and hisses, he hits the ground and hot water comes out, Naina devi pulls out her sword. In seeing the sword Shesnag decides to gives Parvatis belongings to Naina Devi. The above story is why Hindus go there, this is why you will find a mandir where the Gurdwara complex is. In the 1930/40s. Hari Narain claimes to have had a dream where he meets Guru Nanak DEv jee, Guru jee tells him to make a gurdwara because Guru jee visited this place. Hari Narain makes a gurdwara next to mandir claiming Guru Nanak Dev jee visited the place. According to Hari Narain Guru Nanak Dev jee and Bhai mardana reached manikaran late at night, he asked Bhai marada to go into the city and get flour to make roti. Bhai Mardana returns but they have nothing to start a fire, Guru jee then tells Bhai Mardana to pick up a rock and water comes out. They then use the heat of the water (as people do to make cholai there). Im dont feel this place is real, firstly why does the whole Sikh panth believe in what some hari narain says. I also dont understand why guru nanak nanak Dev jee is supposed to have picked up this rock to get hot water when there are other springs in the area which he could have easily used. Creating a gurdwara was for Hari Narains advantage, so many Sikhs go there and give the sadhus who live there now and previously money. In the gurdwara there is practices which are totally against gurmat. You will find arti and people bowing to pictures of hari narain next to the Guru granth sahib. Like another Veer jee, I not only saw those pictures but i also saw pictures of Jesus with Guru sahib and im sure there was a picture of Prophet Mohammed. These pictures are all in the darbar. The floor below the darbar in the morning a bell rings and this door opens where people go into the room bow to the person looking (the Sadhu) after the gurdwara and he gives them parshad. I tried to address some of these issues with the Sadhu who was looking after the gurdwara with piyar, although I wasnt sure about this place really being of any historical significance I decided not to discuss this as felt the most important issue to talk to him about was what was happening in the gurdwara complex, I just wanted some kind of maryada taking place in the diwan (for example I dont understand how he can allow people to bow to him in the hazari of Guru Granth Sahib maharaj). Unfortuantly his bodyguards were really rude to me and didnt give me parshad. :umm: Anyways I think its good to go there and find out for yourselves but dont just accept that this place is real. Its also best to sleep in the gurdwara complex, so get there early, not like after 7pm. Loads of people are missing after visiting this place and never sleep in those places which are on the outskirts of the city in the forest just of the main roads (they are like small hotels). If you go into the city of manikaran, you will find loads of missing posters.

Veer jee, I think these points have been adressed in previous posts and its something we should just accept that people have different views. Although my beliefs are that bhai Bala never existed and that Guru Nanak Dev jee was born in Vaisakh, this issue should not divide us as much as it has done in the panth. Guru Nanak Dev jee himself told people the truth, I dont think its a problem if Bhai Mardana was not there to tell the storys, people came to do darshan of Guru Nanak Dev jee and listen to his veechara. Guru Angad Dev jee had the jot of Guru Nanak Dev jee inside him, there is no difference between Guru Nanak Dev jee and Guru Angad Dev jee, so I dont feel Guru Angad Dev jee had to ask anyone the storys of Guru Nanak Dev jees udasi, why would the person who we say Gur parmeshar ikhoo jaan need to ask other people? This is my personal belief. Prof Kartar Singh jee in his book (he was Khalsa College principle around 1910) says that the Gurpurabh was celebrated at nanakana Sahib in vasaikh up to 1872. End of the day each individual look at both sides of the arguments and then make a decision. Its important to consider both sides.

Sant Attar singh did not join force with anyone.He was not a political man.He was a religious person. There was a parade in Delhi when King of England took over throne.In that parade maharaja of Patiala took Sant ji to be part of sikh group.When Sant ji passed before Viceroy,viceroy seeing jalal on the face of Sant ji asked who was that man.There sant ji was asked to say something.He sang this shabad Har saman nahi koi Raja Let us not bring the great name of sant ji in these mundane affairs of sikhs.He was far above than Gurmukh singh,chief khalsa Diwan etc etc. Veer jee I think the shabad is khoo har saman nahee raja (raag Bilawal) Sant Attar Singh jee place in the Singh Sabha is written in history, if you want to ignore this fact, its up to you. If standardising the Dasam Granth, removing idols from Harmander Sahib complex, stopping pandits doing weddings, re starting the anand karagh, challenging the Araya Samaj, Christian and Muslim missionaries who were coverting Sikhs, attacking the caste system which was being practiced, getting gurdwaras back from the mahants control, becoming shahid in the fight to free gurdwaras, fighting and going to prision against the ban on kirpans etc etc were all mundane affairs to Sikhs, then ill never no what is important issues. These issues could only be resolved by people like Bhai Vir Singh, Kahn Singh jee Nabha and Sant Attar Singh jee etc.

Veer Namstang jee Sant Attar Singh jee was involved earlier on in the Singh Sabha lehar, however on the death of Gurmukh Singh and many other important sevadhars, various fractions opened, Sant Attar Singh joined the chief khalsa diwan along with Babu Teja Singh Bhasaur who actually did the ardas in the first meeting. It was later that Bhasaur lost the plot. Bhasaur never took over anything, he later created his own group called Panch Khalsa Diwan which came after 1902, but before 1902 bhasaur, sant attar Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sardar Sundar Singh Majithia etc were all apart of the same group and joined forces on the death of Bhai Gurmurkh Singh, Sir Attar Singh and Bhai Dit Singh.

Veer jee regarding Sant Attar Singh jee, look at the following book: The Singh Sabha and other socio-religious movements in the punjab (1850-1925) edited by Dr Ganda Singh. 'The Singh Sabha Movement' Prof Teja Singh jee. Other people involved in the Chief Khalsa Diwan was Sant Sangat Singh Kamalia and Bhai Vir Singh jee. Sant Attar became more active when the movement split and was more of an important member in the chief khalsa diwan, along with Bhai Hira Singh raagi they did alot of parchar and kirtan. Also in the book mentioned above you can look at Gurdarshan Singh jees article which also mentions the role that Sant Attar Singh jee played. People like Bhai Charat Singh jee (Bhai Vir Singh jees father) and Bhai kahn Singh jee Nabha played important roles in the Singh Sabha movement, im therefore suprised you find it insulting that Sant Attar Singh jee was associated with these kinds of people and played an important role in the singh sabha lehar, esp when you consider the work of the Gurmat granth parchark sabha which inspired the panth parkash, Twarikh Khalsa, guru granth kosh etc. Im sure you know what the was published in 1897 by the Gurmat Granth Parchark Sabha, it was one of the most important works done in the panth and it was undertaken by the Singh Sabha.

If you take amrit at Takhat keshgarh Sahib (anandpur sahib), they will not say you can eat meat, (I dont who told you they will say you can eat meat because thats not true) they will def say you cannot take marijuana or any other drug. Someone has told me you have to get there at 11am, but im sure the amrit sachar used to be at 1pm. When you go into the takhat sahib, on the left hand side you have maharaj parkash on the right hand side next to the guy who gives out parshad is some stairs, you need to go up these stairs to get onto the next floor, on this floor is where the amrit sanchar will take place. Amrit sachars take place every Wednesday and Sunday. The other thing is that the panthic Sikh rehit maryada does not say eat meat. I also think its hard to make assessemnts of peoples avasta's sitting at home without meeting or knowing individuals.