pedrorizzo

tru say. important to recognise the good things but also reflect on the development points

^ "Housing: Sikhs most likely to own their own homes". Religion. UK National Statistics. 11 October 2004. Retrieved 2008-04-04.

they have always been very hardworking. But also shrewd, clever and strategic. Which is the reason that they were viewed, mistakenly by the Nazis, as being cowardly, because they would rather, scheme, negotiate, and duck their way out of any kind of conflict, rather than fighting back. However, for centuries, this had worked for the Jewish community, in Europe, which was openly hostile against them. They had learnt how to survive, keep their heads down, stay out of trouble and make their money. After the holocaust, they went into overdrive and took steps to ensure that nothing like that was ever allowed to happen again. What you have now is one of the most successful, wealthy, fierce and militaristic communities in the world. Even now they are surrounded by hostile Muslim countries, and have defeated them many times in combat. I have to say I admire them, and feel that our community can learn alot from them.

yes but Sikhs have the greatest percentage of home ownership compared to all communities, including the gujus

I am a ghost. boo

Yeh but this is the kind of press you can expect to get if you indulge in violent behaivour. It is fashionable for the media to portray us as extremist beardie wierdies who like to smash up places that are against our religious beliefs. They dont care about the real issues. We played right into their hands and performed the role spectacularly well. All the Singhs out there trying to be kharkoos... you know who you are and so does everybody else. Your hearts might be in the right place. But you are damaging relations with the media, damaging relations with the elders, damaging relations with the jathebandia, damaging relations with the police, and damaging relations with the larger sehajdhari population. Is there anyone else left for to be friends with? Hell you guys dont even get on amongst yourselves. If you just stopped and thought about the consequences of your actions for a minute and used your brains, you might actually be able to get somewhere. The problem with you guys is that you are bored and have got nothing better to do, and you love the attention of being seen as some kind of kharkoo. You use Sikhi as an excuse for indulging in yobbish behaivour and the rest of the community has to pick up the pieces. If you were members of any other community you would be classed as violent scum bags. However, because you are Singhs we have to refer to you as kharkoos. Jokers.

Vjkk Vjkf Just curious to know roughly how many amritdhari Sikh youth there are in the UK. Thanks

This is a very good point. Sikhs saw this first hand in 84. With large numbers of Sikhs in the military, nonone thought that the Indian Government would dare to touch us. However, when it did finally kick off, it was clear that the command and control structure of the Indian Army, the brainwashing, Indian Nationalism and attempts to keep the Sikh soldiers on board was enough to stop them from rising up in any consequential way. However, on the flipside, there are other benefits of large numbers of Sikhs being in the army. The fact that it produced military strategists of the calibre of Major General Subeg Singh, who if brought on board with a panthic struggle, could do some serious damage. Also, during civil unrest, having a large number of ex-servicemen or guys exposed to military training is an advantage. Sikhs, were able to enjoy this advantage in organisation and experience, during the partition for example and did a good job of protecting the community and clearing out the <banned word filter activated> from East Punjab, despite their smaller numbers. The other advantage of joining the military of the nations in which we have migrated is that it becomes a good bargaining tool. We have used it successfully for many years and it has been one of our best cards to get things done our way. Eg, the sacrifices of Sikhs in WW1 and WW2 can be used to imply patriotism to Britain, and has helped in many Sikh campaigns, eg the wearing of turbans on motorcycles etc. However, I take your point. Large numbers of Sikhs in the military does not necessarily mean that we are prepared for armed struggle. This is just one piece in the jigsaw puzzle. Unfortunately, we as a community are so un ready for war that it is actually scary. And the people that call for war in our community are highly irresponsible for even suggesting it.

I am amazed after how much we as Sikhs give it the big one about what should happen re panthic affairs that noone has even bothered to reply to this thread. Vjkk Vjkf 1. As Jathedar, I will focus on policies that bring the panth together and issues of common interest rather than appealing to one single faction/jathebandi. I will ensure that the any agenda that the Sikhs follow, will be pursued though peaceful and legal channels and that any kind of open militant and violent activity is discouraged, purely for the protection of Sikhi, and the protection of Sikh people. 2. I will look to raise funds for a big parcharik body in Punjab. It will have headquarters, buildings and branches all over Punjab. It will have both paid and voluntary staff. The role of this body will be for the delivery of Sikhi into the villages by trained, educated and knowledgable parchariks, who do not represent a certain jathebandi except Akal Takhat Maryada, Amrit and belief in Guru Granth Sahib ji. This body will aim to increase the number of Kesadhari and Amritdhari Sikhs in Punjab and compete with all the deras mushrooming throughout Punjab. It will do this through many different media, including, schools, colleges, universities, literature, camps, evening classes and by liasing with local gurdwaras in villages and cities and forming a large network. I will raise funds for the formation of a legal team with headquarters, buildings and branches if necessary. This will be a focused team of the best lawyers in the country who will pursue Sikh rights through legal channels, including rights to wear kakkars, bringing about legislation which protects Sikhs and Sikh symbols in India, bringing to justice perpetrators of beadbi and crimes against Sikhs and the Sikh Kaum. The team will consist of both paid and voluntary staff. I will raise funds for the formation of a private security company. The purpose of this will be to guard gurdwaras, the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib ji, other Sikh establishments and interests, and protection of the community during possible times of civil unrest, eg riots etc. It will consist of paid and voluntary staff, and will look to recruit ex-military and police personnel. It will be present all over India, and not just in Punjab. It will be a well disciplined and trained security company with uniformed staff. However, this will not be a militant or para-military group and we will be careful not to present it as such. I will convene a meeting of the top Sikh scholars, intellectuals and sants and propose that another meeting takes place so that a consensus can take place on a unified Sikh maryada, as it was done in the 1920s and 1940s, as presently, lots of different jatheh are continuing to folllow lots of different maryadas that are confusing the sangat. 3. Has been answered in point 2. 4. I cant really comment on the SGPC as I do not know enough about its structure. However, I would make structural changes that would allow for the above objectives to be delivered and achieved as necessary. The thrust of my points is that Sikhs are a wealthy community as individuals, however, we lack rich institutions. We have many many unanswered issues and few organisations to address them. However, I feel that if a rich Parchar body, Legal body, and Security body were set up, this would be a big step in the right direction, and alot of issues would be resolved by these three bodies alone. vjkk vjkf

Fantastic news. Great role model. We need more like him.

Well judging by what his posts have said, it sounds to me like he wants to find his own partner rather than go through the bachola route. Sure, if he goes through bachola route or by matrimonial list route, then he maybe refused point blank on the grounds of not being 'clean shaven'. Personally, I think Singhs have got a better chance of finding their own partners nowadays anyway, as they have an opporunity to get to know girls and for girls to get to know them before making a desicion, rather than just being labelled as something and being rejected or accepted because of that label (ie sardar/non sardar). I personally know of many cases, of girls who were adamant that they would never marry a kesadhari Singh, but still ended up meeting one and marrying one in the end, because, they saw them as an individual and appreciated the other qualities that they 'radiated'. No offence, but I think the idea of not allowing the 'clean shaven' cateogory on forms is pretty ridiculous as it will only lead to misunderstandings and resentments later down the line once it is discovered that a potential suitor is kesadhari. You cant punish people for their opinions and preferences. It will backfire, and just create an even bigger divide in the community. But what you can do is change yourself and increase your own chances of finding a partner

You need to expand your social network amongst young Sikhs and amongst Sikh families. Put simply, the more people you know, the better your chances are, and the more chance you have of being introduced to 'the friend of a friend' etc. You can meet like minded Sikhs at various Camps, through doing sewa in a gurdwara setting, but also a non gurdwara setting, involving the Sikh community, eg charities. You can attend community activties, such as sports clubs, music groups, art classes.. or whatever. If there are none in your area, consider moving closer to an area where these provisions exist. Also if these provisions do not exist, you could step up and set some kind of community network up. Not only would you do something to benefit the community, you would also increase your chances of finding a jeevan sathi at the same time. Bearing in mind that the Sikh community has a multitude of community needs outside of the Gurdwara, the possibilty of things that you could set up is endless.

The way to deal with this problem is by not accepting that there is a problem, and simply to brush it over. By acknowledging the problem, you are giving further credence to it, cementing it, to the extent that it becomes a fixed unshakable belief, that Singhs are unattractive and that girls dont want to marry them. You really have to challenge this belief in your own mind and you have to believe that the opposite is true. Otherwise, you will always carry this insecurity with you. Even when you do finally get married and have a wife, you will still be insecure that you are unattractive etc, and that can put strains on your relationship, such as jealousy when she talks to other men, or even thoughts like 'she is only with you because of your money etc'. Everyone can tell you that you need to be confident, but in reality only you can walk through the door. You must totally disregard any examples you find of women rejecting sardars as being isolated, wierd incidents where the girl was just a wierdo and you didnt like her anyway. Focus instead on the numerous girls that have married sardars, and convince yourself that this is the norm. Just be aware that with developing attraction, it is much easier for men than it is for women. For a woman to be deemed attractive, a big proportion of it is dependent on their looks. For men, however, a much smaller proportion is dependent on their looks. Alot is dependent on their personality, alpha male qualities, CONFIDENCE, career, values and status. Even if you are insecure about your looks/sikh saroop, which you shouldnt be, then at the very least you should radiate your other qualities.

oh ok cool, yeh looks like a circular helmet with plumes and a red dastaar tied loosely over the top. Well you learn something new everyday

Its better than nothing. They are not too expensive. Pistol cross bows you can pick up for £30 and will cause some nasty injuries. Proper crossbows you can pick up for £100 and the really good ones are for £400-600. All of them, including, cheap pistol crossbows can cause serious injuries and all of them can potentially kill. Problem with them is that they are single shot, and take a bit of time to reload. Other things to consider are air guns. Some of these are semi automatic and automatic, taking away the long time loading problem. These too can cause some horrible injuries and probably even kill if you hit the eyes, penetrate the brain or throat.

Interesting post also by Dal Singh, regarding fraternising of Sikh troops with French women during WW1. I guess that this was not a modern phenomenon only, but clearly must have become alot more prevalent after the Guru jis times: <p class="post_block hentry clear clearfix " id="post_id_493077" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(214, 226, 235); clear: both; position: relative; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><p class="post_wrap" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; top: 0px; "> I picked up a very interesting book called 'Indian voices of the great war: Soldiers' letters, 1814-18' by David Omissi, who works at the University of Hull (Dept. of History and Centre for Indian Studies). It contains the contents of letters sent by (and to) soldiers from the then undivided Indian subcontinent during the first world war. These have been translated in English from the original languages/scripts in which they were transcribed (mainly Gurmukhi, Urdu, Hindi with some other occasional variations like Bengali). These letters are extant because the texts passed through British censorship, which was concerned with (and keeping an eye open for) potential disaffection amongst the Indian soldiery at the time. The book is useful as a tool to help us understand the motivations and concerns of the soldiers involved. The letters are presented chronologically by date and there are 657 in total, being of varying lengths and from soldiers of diverse backgrounds. It is not uncommon to hear lamentation that whilst we have plenty of white soldiers accounts relating to this conflict, we don't have corresponding texts written from the perspectives of the brown men that were present. The book helps fill this gap to an extent. The following is based on its introductory essay which (amongst other things), describes the nature of recruitment at the time. This may at help partially explain the aforementioned scarcity of narratives from the brown side: "How were the letters written? It is clear some men wrote or addressed their own letters, but the vast majority of letters were probably written by scribes on behalf of their senders, since most Indian Army soldiers were illiterate. In the Punjab at this time no more than 5 percent of the population could read; among rural military communities, however literacy was would have been very much less, since the British deliberately recruited from the least educated segments of the rural population, who were thus least effected by 'dangerous' Western political ideas. Indeed, some of the letters contain explicit references to the 'writer's' own illiteracy, while others refer to scribes." Whilst it must be borne in mind that certain restraining factors would have influenced what was being divulged in these communications (awareness of censorship being an obvious factor), they still provide valuable insights into the thoughts and situations of the soldiers even with these limitations. Some of the letters that were sent by soldiers were indeed 'suppressed' by the censors and the criteria for the said suppression included: "incitements to crime, and even murder; accounts of sex with white women, which were seen as damaging to white prestige; particularly distressing letters from men who had been badly disabled by wounds; letters which were flagrantly dishonest, mentioned drugs or included slighting references to whites; and accounts from prisoners of war of receiving good treatment from Germans, which might have encouraged desertion. In each case, either the offending passage was deleted or the offending passage was deleted or the entire letter was destroyed." The picture emerging from the self referencing included in texts reveals communities conspicuously stratified along both religious and caste lines. When we consider the impact of the by then firmly entrenched 'martial races theory' used by the British to categorise and organise the soldiers of the 'jewel of the crown', it's difficult to tell just how far these identity constructs were truly reflective of pre-colonial self-identifications (that had carried over from that time) or whether the policies introduced by the imperial administration played a large part in moulding the self perceptions? The opportunity is open for future research to delve into this matter through comparison with pre annexation texts, which could prove useful in trying to establish earlier Khalsa attitudes towards this now thorny issue and how exogenous British ideas may have altered the previously prevailing perceptions. In theory, this could help shed some light onto the argument that British policies influenced the nature of the caste system as existent amongst Panjabi Sikhs today. A general pattern emerges from the letters with the exhilaration exhibited prior to battles and immediately after early conflicts giving way to 'sighs of resignation' and 'despair' as time progressed. Interestingly the narrator of the book mentions that only the Mahsuds (a Pathan people of NWFP) seem to have been unaffected in this way. Some letters later give warnings to relatives and friends to stay away from the war and avoid enlisting. Not surprisingly the cold European weather seemed to have a particular effect in lowering morale. It is suggested that this was the cause for eventually removing infantry soldiers from this front and redeploying them to the more familiar climes of the Middle East. Those that did remain in Europe where attached to the cavalry it seems and saw significantly less intense action than their infantry compatriots had previously. This coupled with the fact that instructions were explicitly given by commanders to discourage writing what could be deemed as despondent, means that the accounts in later letters do not contain as many despair tinged references as before. This was, of course, the dawn of modern mechanised warfare as we know it today, characterised by remote mass destruction; something that would have come as a shock to even previously battle hardened foot soldiers. Whilst Muslims equated the battles to Karbala, Hindus used the analogy of Mahabharat to describe the mass carnage they were witnessing. Interestingly Sikhs had no such previous conflict which they used in similar comparative terms. Some letters acknowledge the receipt of religious material such as Korans and the Guru Granth Sahib. As could be expected, faith played a big part in the lives of those facing death on a constant basis. It would however be a mistake to think of these soldiers in strictly puritan terms and mention is made of a certain erosion of 'religious orthodoxies'. Some letters make brief references to sexual relationships between the soldiers and the indigenous females of Europe for instance. As could be expected after the earlier experience of the mutiny, the imperial hierarchy were keen to avoid a repetition of such a scenario and strove to meet the religious dietary requirements of the soldiers. A photo of Sikhs dispatching some goats' jhatka style is provided (see attachment to post). Interestingly, Sikhs and Hindus shared a common space for slaughtering animals, whilst Muslims had their own separate location. The matter of later recruitment in Panjab is touched upon and it appears as if there was some difficulty in this area. The book describes the scenario (somewhat shockingly) as follows: "From the autumn of 1916, various forms of coercion were also used to secure recruits. The Government of India discussed conscription, but preferred to employ informal methods of compulsion, especially in Punjab. For example, Indian officials were told to produce a given quota of men on pain of losing their posts if they failed. Some men were simply kidnapped, or their womenfolk held hostage until the men enlisted. After the war, the authoritarian Governor of the Punjab, Michael O'Dwyer, was even accused of using 'terrorist methods' to find recruits. He fought and won a libel case over the phrase, but there remained no doubt that forcible recruitment was widely resented. " Michael O'Dwyer (Note that the aforementioned General O'Dwyer was later assassinated by Udham Singh in London in 1940 in retaliation for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre). Overall the book is invaluable for those interested in Indian involvement in the first world war and helps shed light onto many aspects of the conflict in relation to the people who traveled to a far off continent to fight in a foreign war. It provides a thought provoking window into the relationship between the colonised and the colonisers. Like This Quote MultiQuote Report <p class="post_block hentry clear clearfix " id="post_id_510956" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(214, 226, 235); clear: both; position: relative; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><p class="post_wrap" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; top: 0px; "> #2dalsingh101 <p class="author_info" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 15px; padding-right: 10px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 10px; width: 155px; float: left; font-size: 12px; text-align: center; "> Baeg Milo Jan Kar Naa Bilaa(n)baa Members 3205 posts Posted 03 September 2011 - 04:27 AM Here are some interesting extracts from the above book. I post them for those interested in itihaas. What I find striking from the letters in the book is that the Sikh soldiers are human. They exhibit all the strengths and weaknesses of the human condition. I remember a few months ago people alluded to the 'higher standard' of colonial Sikh soldiers behaviour in comparison to today in a thread. Reading this book has challenged this notion for me. Some of the contents are of a mature nature, so be forewarned. Hopefully we can get a more accurate understanding of our recent ancestors through studying such material and move away from nonfactual, idolised representations: Quote 48 Sepoy Gurdit Singh to his father in Amritsar – 6th April 1915 from Brighton hospital Here it is being said men are being forced to enlist by order in India, and they also say plague is rife. Write me some news of our country... So long as the war goes on, no sound man can return to India – only those who have lost a limb can return. In my heart I feel that I shall have to go back to war. Quote 65 A Sikh sepoy in France to Gurun Ditta Mal of 47th Sikhs in UP (India) - 12th May 1915 You will be hearing about this country (France) from the wounded who have gone back from England. Some of them will tell fine tales about the number of water-drawing machines . I long to see England. When the war is over perhaps the regiment will go there. There are crowds of ‘machines’ here also, and the sight of them delights us, but we are ashamed to touch them lest we lose caste. The men and women of this place treat us lovingly.[/i][/size]The coy, reserved sentiments of the brother above weren’t shared by all Sikhs as demonstrated in the intercepted coded Gurmukhi letter below: [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 171 Balwant Singh (France) to Chet Ram (Amritsar) – 24th October 1915 [i]The ladies are very nice and bestow their favours upon us freely. But contrary to the custom in our country they do not put their legs over the shoulders when they go with a man.[/i][/size] (The above letter was intercepted and deleted by the censors presumably because of the references to 'relations' with white women). A Panjabi Musalmaan wrote: [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] Maula Dad Khan (Sialkot Cavalary brigade) to his father (India) – 24th October 1915 [i]M. Khan’s letter dated the 27th Sept. Reached me on the 22nd Oct. When I read it every hair on my body stood on end. Before that i was happy but after I read it I was very vexed. It is true that I wrote to Allah Lok Khan for a pair of [women’s] shoes. The fact is, father, that a young Frenchman acquaintance of mine asked me to send for something from india. He asked me to get him some shoes which would fit his wife. I wrote that. Of what do you suspect me? My father I swear in the name of God and His prophet and declare that there is no [ground for suspicion].[/i][/size] This letter seems to refer to an incident of rape by some Sikh soldiers. [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 175 Ressaidar Kabul Singh (Sikh, 41) to Risaldar Bahadhur Mohinddin Sahib, ADC to HE the viceroy (Remount Base Depot, Marseilles) – 29th Oct 1915 [i]Asil Singh Jat and harbans have done a vile thing. They forcibly violated a French girl, 19 years of age. It is a matter of great humiliation and regret that the good name of the 31st lancers should be sullied in this way.[/i][/size] [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 67 Havildar Abdul Rahman (Panjabi Musalmaan) from France to Naik Rajwali Khan in Baluchistan – 20th May For God’s sake don’t come, don’t come, don’t come to this war in Europe. Write and tell me if your regiment or any part of it comes and whether you are coming with it or not. I am in a state of great anxiety; and tell my brother Mohammad Yakub Khan for God’s sake not to enlist. If you have any relatives my advice is don’t let them enlist. It is unnecessary to write any more. I write so much to you as I am Pay Havildaar and read the letters to the double company commander*. Otherwise there is a strict order against writing on the subject. Cannons, machine guns, rifles and bombs are going day and night, just like the rains in the month of Sawan (July – August). Those who have escaped so far are like the few grains left uncooked in a pot. That is the case with us. In my company there are only 10 men [left]. In the regiment there are 200. In every regiment there are only 200 or 280 [the average number of soldiers in a full regiment was approx. 760]. *Here the writer refers to the censorship process and his part in it, explaining how he has bypassed it.[/size] This brother waxed lyrically in Gurmukhi poetry to his wife. The letter was withheld by the censors, presumably for its despondent character? [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 146 Sant Singh to his wife (from France?) – 18th Sept. 1915 We perish in the desert: you wash yourself and lay in bed. We are trapped in a net of woe, while you go free. Our life is a living death. For what great sin are being punished? Kill us, Oh God, but free us from our pain! We move in agony but never rest. We are slaves of masters who can show no mercy. The bullets fall on us like rain, but dry are our bodies. So we have spent a full year. We cannot write a word. Lice feed upon our flesh: we cannot wait to pick them out. For days we have not washed our faces. We do not change our clothes. Many son’s of mothers lie dead. No one takes any heed. It is God’s will that this is so, and what is written is true. God The Omnipotent plays a game, and men die. Death here is dreadful, but of life there is not the briefest hope. [/size] [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 184 Storekeeper D. N. Sircar (Maratha Brahmin) to Telegraphist S. K. Bapat (Indore, Central India) writing from Kitchener’s Indian Hospital in Brighton, England. 12th Nov. 1915. [i]This place is very picturesque and the Indians are very much liked here. The girls of this place are notorious and very fond of accosting Indians and fooling with them. They are ever ready for any purpose, and in truth are no better that the girls of Adda Bazar of Indore. (This letter was deleted by the censors).[/i][/size] In the next letter we can see how religious sentiments were used by the Brits to goad soldiers into action: [size=3][b] Quote[/b][/size] [size=3] 199 A sepoy of the 47th Sikhs (Sikh) writing from Brighton hospital to his friend in India – 14th December 1915 [i]Chur Singh has suffered martyrdom in the war. The 47th Sikhs were charging. [The] sahib said ‘Chur Singh, you are not a Sikh of Guru Govind Singh, [you who in fear remain in the trench!’ Chur Singh was very angry. Chur Singh gave the order for his company to charge. He drew out his sword and went forward. A bullet came from the enemy and hit him in the mouth. So did our brother Chur Singh become a martyr. No other man was like Jemadar Chur Singh.[/i][/size] [/size][/color] [size=2] Like This Quote MultiQuote [/size] [/indent]

Actually as HSD has stated, there was a full regiment called the Khalsa Curaissers who all wore this type of helmet. If you have any evidence of dastars being worn over the helmet, which sounds a bit strange, please show. I have seen a 19th century painting of Hari Singh Nalwa, Indian minature style, wearing a hard helmet but with no dastaar, in the warrior saints book, so would be interested to know about any evidence that contradicts this

Some good points above. Actually its interesting you mentioned that, as I have come across a few instances in modern times where Sikh soldiers have (allegedly) molested women: http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277849 And this one: http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277849

The difference was that in those days, Singhs had just come out of an episode where they had to fight for survival. There is nothing like the threat of being killed to sharpen up your survival instincts. In those days, you had to learn to be a soldier or you would be killed for being a Sikh. Simple as. As the Sikhs became more powerful, and took more territory, the skills that they had developed in learning to survive still meant that they were good warriors, but there skills were now honed for a different purpose, for the expansion of Sikh territory and the establishment of khalsa raaj. After the British took over, large numbers of Sikhs joined the military and served the British, but not as many as in Maharajah Ranjit Singhs time. Sikhs were now also civilians as well and took on other professions. After Indian independance, there was no large scale threat to the survival of Sikhs, or at the very least, perceived threat by the Sikh populace, therefore, people didnt think it necessary to hone and develop fighting skills, unless they were some of the few Sikhs that joined the army. Basically, in a wordy kind of a way, what I am trying to say is that these geeky kids that you are talking about nowadays, who run off when someone calls them Bin Laden etc and dont stick up for themselves are CIVILIANS. You cannot compare them to the battle-hardened warriors or soldiers that our ancestors used to be. Just because you are Sikh does not automatically mean that you are a battle hardened soldier/warrior. That is a ridiculous idea. Soldiers and warriors train for months to years to be competent at what they do. Young Sikhs today do not have those skills because they do not have the perception that they are under threat in any way, nor do they feel that war is imminent so they dont feel the need to prepare for it, and nor are they trying to build an army for the acquisition of territory etc. They are civilians... and civilians dont got da fire inside of dem.

HSD, lol, I never said that the Singhs were wrong for doing what the did. Personally I am an advocate of dirty fighting and being as fierce as possible. After all, that is what war is all about, total destruction of your enemy. I am just challenging the belief that some modern Singhs preach, that in the 'good' old days, Singhs were all spiritually enlightened humble warriors and high on naam and bani. I am just suggesting that some probably were and lots were not. Mehtab Singh, yes, this is kind of what it comes down to.... we do inevitably believing in whatever suits us or makes us feel comfortable. No problem with that. But you have to remember that this is not what the academic subject of history is about. Btw.. here is a link to the picture of the turban helmet, which was designed for Singhs with jooreh: http://amandeep-sikhi.blogspot.com/2007/03/royal-robe-of-maharaja-ranjit-singh.html Regarding Kaljugi's point, there may be some truth in that statement, in that Singhs have most likely slackened in the practice of Sikhi since the Guru's times. However, there where plenty of slackers then I am sure.... Take Guru Nanak Dev ji's sons who started their own cult when gurgaddi was not passed to them and also the massands during Guru Gobind Singh jis time. So yes you are probably right, but then again who knows?

I will try and find some for you. Have you read Siques, Tigers, Thieves? This book is about early european accounts of Sikhs. Some interesting perspectives in there. The one about Sikhs mutliating the wounded, I got from Warrior Saints by Parmjit Singh and Amandeep Madra, during an account after the battle of Chillanwala, written by a British officer. Also in that book is a sketch by a British officer depicting Gurkhas rifling the pockets of dead Sikhs. This officer did a series of battlefield sketches on what he saw, including a picture when the British took over the Sikh camp at Ferozshah and found the mutliated remains of captured British Soldiers who had been left there for the British to find as a form of intimidation. Regarding, the one about Sikhs surrendering then killing their enemy, that was a quote from Colonial wars in India by Donald Featherstone, which also alleges that some Sikh soldiers took drugs to bring themselves into a crazy fighting state, particularly at the Battle of Chillanwala, where they captured British cannons. Also regarding the point about Sikhs not necessarily being 100% spiritual/religous etc, I have seen several helmets in lahore museum and V and A exhibition designed for Sikhs with extra space at the top for the jura. I have also seen a contemporary painting of Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa wearing one, also in Warrior Saints book. This would probably shock many people as they would not expect puratan Singhs to wear helmets etc. If you would really like me to go back and dig up some quotes I can do, just PM me. However, you will find plenty of quotes in the texts that I have given you. I appreciate that the sources are British and European and therefore will be biased. However, we also have to acknowledge that from a historical perspective, any Sikh sources, that indicate that we were all pure, holy naam jaaping saint soldiers are probably just as biased. Being a historian is looking at the story from both sides and trying to paint a realistic picture.

I know that we as Sikhs like to paint a rose tinted view of ourselves as being pure, spiritual naam jaaping warriors but I'm not convinced that most Singhs were like that. When you read historical accounts that others have written about us, it sounds like there was a big variety. Many historical accounts paint the picture that Sikhs were very aggressive and fanatical fighters. Particularly accounts by the British suggest that Singhs were pretty dirty fighters. They would often show little mercy and butcher the wounded. Sometimes they would pretend like they have surrendered, and when the opponent turned their back would stick them from behind. Singhs would often mutilate the bodies of their enemies as a warning and as a way to intimidate them. Of course there were some singhs who had a great jeevan and did lots of simran, bani etc and that would have contributed to their warrior prowess. However, I think that most of the time, they were basically just normal guys but extremely fierce and aggressive as fighters.

They were physically tough. Most were rural physical people and worked the farms or did some kind of manual work. They had alot of pride (anakh) and always felt that they had alot to live up to, ie their forefathers had a fearsome and courageous reputation so they thought that they had to maintain it. They drew inspiration from Sikh history and all the great stories about soormay permeated their lives and shaped their mentality and their values. They were practical people. They enjoyed the adventure, prestige, honour, glory and financial reward of being a soldier. The above I believe are the main reasons to be honest.

The problem is asians themselves. Sikh families are focussed on making money and what they consider a good stable career. There is no lack of talent amongst Punjabis and Sikhs. There is no family support for most people in these areas. Parents are ok about kids engaging in sport as a leisure activity, or something that might give them bragging rights when talking about how talented their kids are lol Sport is seen as a hobby not as a career. Simple as. Most kids follow this and have been brainwashed to think the same way. Hence, as a community we a rich, in terms of money. We are wealthy and have good jobs. But we are not content and happy. We are not wealthy in the sense of having a high self esteem and the feel good factor that a community which is successful at sports would have. Look how cocky and smug muslims have become because of Amir Khan etc. All of a sudden these sons of kashmiri sheep farmers think that they are the best fighters in the world lol. Look at how happy England became when England won the Ashes and the Rugby world cup. Look at Pakistan giving it the big one when they win the cricket. Sports matter. Nowadays, nations dont have as much pride regarding the size of their army and their performance on the battlefield. The sports arena is now the modern battlefield and a nations pride is determined as to how well it performs there. Sadly, Sikhs and Punjabis, despite our natural talents rate very low on this scale.

The use of the word modern is very interesting here. And it most certainly has to be challenged. Some people will be tempted to present sikhi suroop, dastaar, dara and 5Ks as being old fashioned, arachaic, and out of date. However, their use of language must be corrected. Instead, it should be presented that Gursikhs are in fact the modern ones, as 'modern' values include introspection, spirituality and respecting diversity of faith and appearance, and also being an individual and standing apart from the crowd. It is also a modern value to want to maintain and nurture tradition. After all, history and tradition can only truly flourish in a modern society which would want to preserve them. Conversely, the values of wanting to fit into the crowd, discarding that which is old and traditional and moving away from introspection and spirituality in favour of materialistic or 'practical' gain are far more dated and old fashioned concepts. This is not just me talking a load of rubbish. Look at Sikhs in the UK. In the 70s, Sikhs immigrants thought that they were really modern with their shorn hair, believeing that this old fashioned appearance had to be discarded if they wanted jobs and to get married and to integrate into British society. 40 years later, many of their sons and daughters, and they themselves are keeping kesh in much greater numbers