Jonny101

Mahakaal Ji, neither you will change your view of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and neither will I. While your view is more in line with SP and PP and my view is more in line with historian Dr Ganda Singh ji who had studied a wide variety of primary sources such as Sikh, Muslim, Persian, European, Hindu sources to come to his conclusions of Baba Ji. We can only agree to respectfully disagree with one another on this topic.

The oral history argument doesn't hold since neither you nor me have any real proof what the oral history was from the perspective of Buddha Dal and Dam Dami Taksal or how correct the oral history was. Oral history can always add or subtract information as it passes from one generation to the next. Just take the oral history of what happened in 1984 and Santa Singh's rebuilding the Akal Takht from the perspective of Dam Dami Taksal vs the Buddha Dal. They both have a very different perspective of the same event. While majority of the Panth knows the Dam Dami Taksal version is correct. But 300 years from now who is to say which oral perspective was correct? It will be left to future historians like Dr Ganda Singh to analyze and some to a balanced view of the events as he did when he wrote his book on Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. As for the letters, an expert historian who has studied the letters will know if something is correct or not. And that is what Dr Anurag Singh did when he closely scrutinized the letter to see if it is authentic or not to which he came to the conclusion it is not. That is probably why the Khalsa ignored the letters and did not stop it's war effort. They saw through it and kept on till the last conflict in the Fort of Gurdas Nangal. It is only in the this very last and final conflict that the the Sikhs split. Just out of curiosity, do you actually know what was written in those letters? Have you read them? It seems your argument is corresponding to Mahakaal's argument. Of the so called relapse which seems to have been discovered on this very forum since today. The idea that first Baba Jee was good then he went bad but then he went good again right before he became Shaheed. Problem which this is, this argument seems to have been designed to only counter my argument but is not in agreement with SP, PP or any other source which have only vilified Baba Banda Singh Bahadur till his very end. Let's say if he really did turn bad as you say, meaning he really did became Hankari and called himself a Guru, why did the Sikhs including Baba Deep Singh Ji, Bhai Mani Singh Jee and countless Singhs continue to fight for a bad Baba Banda Singh Bahadur who was pretending to be Guru of the Sikhs? Did Bhai Mani Singh Jee and Baba Deep SIngh Jee not know? What year did he all of a sudden become Hankari and start to call himself a Guru of the Sikhs?

The translation above is not correct on some of the verses. This is a mistranslation done by Sanatanis and promoted by RSS. The correct translation to some of the verses should be as this. ਸਕਲ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਜਗੈ ਧਰਮ, ਹਿੰਦੁਕ, ਤੁਰਕਨ ਦੁੰਦ ਭਾਜੈ ॥ Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The (Khalsa) Dharm will prevail and the Hindus and Turks will be banished The first Vishram(comma) should be placed after Dharm not after Hindak as the sanatani translator has wrongly done. The Hindak and Turkan is grouped together as the two Panths that the Khalsa(the teesar panth mentioned in the preceding Tukh) will banish as the Khalsa will become prominent through out the world. Also in this composition it is written the Mandirs and Masjids will be destroyed by the Khalsa(ਮੜੀ ਗੋਰ ਦੇਵਲ ਮਸੀਤਾਂ ਗਿਰਾਯੰ). The Khalsa will destroy the Vedas, Shastars and Purans of the Hindus(ਮਿਟਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਠਾਰਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ) and the khalsa will finish the Circumcision practice, Azaan,Namaz and Quran of the Muslims (ਮਿਟੈ ਬਾਂਗ ਸਲਵਾਤ ਸੁੰਨਤ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ) In Uggardanti it is written about the two Panths(Hindu and Muslim) ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪੰਥ ਮੇਂ ਕਪਟ ਵਿਦਯਾ ਚਲਾਨੀ । ਬਹੁਰ ਤੀਸਰਾ ਪੰਥ ਕੀਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੀ that since there is too much Kapat(corruption) in the two Panths(of Hinduism and Islam) the teesar Panth(Khalsa Dharm) has been created and is superior. either this was the worldview of the Khalsa of the 1700s or maybe this was a Bhavikat Bani or a Bani predicting a future MahaYudh or great war in which the Khalsa will become victorious over both Hindus and Muslims.

Mahakaal, Again you did not address any of my points and I don't understand why the tone of your post is full of hostility towards me. I am addressing you normally in a friendly debate. I have nothing against you bro. So take it easy. You said Baba Banda Singh Bahadur called himself a Guru. But did not provide anything from his own letters proving he called himself a Guru. The only contemporary sources which call him a Guru are the Mughal ones not Sikh ones. PP and SP were written during the era of M Ranjit Singh(many generations after and contain errors in regards to other Shaheeds). Giani Gian Singh's time period was even after PP and SP. The letters of Mata Ji are forged by the Mughals who wanted the Khalsa to stop waging war against the Mughals. The Mughals had lost considerable territory to the Sikhs and thousands of soldiers and capable commanders during the Sikh rebellion. So it is understandable they will use Saam Dhaam Dand and Bhed tactics to make the Khalsa stop their activities. The Gurmukh/Manmukh argument is not emotional. It is logical. How can a Manmukh get Shaheed like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur who was tortured all over his body with red hot pliers, had his eyes gouged out, had his hands and feet chopped of yet remain calm. Which Manmukh would have the Sabbar to have his son(a little boy) killed in front of him yet remain true to Sikhi? Which Manmukh would remain a humble servant of the Guru yet not even crown himself as king after winning such a huge territory. These are not the attributes of a Manmukh but a Gurmukh.

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but in the Taksali Sundar Gutka there are Rakhia De Shabad which are to be read at night right before Kirtan Sohila Paath.

My points about PP also stand for Suraj Prakash. Like PP, the SP was also written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. We should not treat PP and SP as if they are Dhur Ki Bani which cannot contain mistakes or errors. Personally I like to read PP and SP but I don't blindly believe everything from those Granths. The opinion of two Sampradahs I can respect but I respectfully disagree because those opinions were based on PP and SP and those two Granths based their opinion on forged letters. From the same Sampradah, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale also had Divine Darshan of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur as a Shaheed Singh along with Baba Deep Singh jee and 3 other respected Shaheed Singhs. If he was a Manmukh(who claimed to be a Guru) how could he be in the ranks of the Shaheed Singhs like Baba Deep Singh Jee? I don't know if you believe in the existence of Shaheed Singhs or how much you have read SP, but SP also mentions an incident where Guru Gobind Singh jee gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur divine vision of Shaheed Singhs. How can a Manmukh who claims to be a Guru have blessed Darshan of Shaheed Singhs? Only a high caliber Gurmukh can have such divine visions. Besides this, look at the way he became Shaheed. Having his son killed right in front of his eyes yet did not leave Sikhi, was tortured in the most unimaginable ways yet refused to leave Sikhi. Can a Manmukh(who claims to be Guru and all the other Manmukhi things PP and SP claims about him) go through all such tortures and have his son killed right in front of himself and not flinch? I doubt it. These are the clear signs of a Gurmukh Pyara and not just any Gurmukh but a Gurmukh of high spiritual states.

You didn't address any of my points. Can you provide any thing from the writings of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur to prove he claimed to be Guru? Have you even read his letters? The only contemporary source to say he is Guru was from the Mughals who were our enemies and the primary source of this false propaganda

I don't have the letters of Mata ji at present. As for letters of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, I've read them a long time ago from a book I had. I will see if I still have it in my personal library. As for Sant ji. They said said that based on Panth Prakash and PP was written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Besides that PP is not Gurbani that it cannot contain mistakes and we cannot scrutinize it. For example PP claims Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh was killed due to being cursed and that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee drank Bhang first thing in the morning even before Ishnan and Nitnem(which goes against Nihang maryadha of not eating before Ishnan). Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was the personal hand picked choice of Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj. I have faith in Guru jee's personal choice. He was given Amrit in presence of Guru ji. He was given 5 arrows from the quiver of Guru ji. Only a Gurmukh can be so blessed not a manmukh.

Can Mahakaal provide proof of Baba Banda Singh claiming to be Guru from the writings of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur? Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. The fact that he always refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Guru and in Guru jee's name he had issued the coins of the Sikh state. He was so humble that he never even claimed to be a king like Maharaja Ranjit Singh did after winning a huge territory. The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda. The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style Now discuss without personal insults this time.

You could have very well have posted without making personal insults towards me. I've edited out the personal insults and left the rest.

No such thing occurred. The writers of Suraj Prakash and Panth Prakash errored in regards to Baba Ji. They base their views on the so called letters of Mata ji which are now considered to be forged(most probably by the mughals) to confuse and break ranks of the Khalsa who at the time had almost succeeded in establishing Khalsa raaj in present day Punjab, Haryana and Himachal area. Even noted Sikh historian Dr Anurag Singh is of the opinion those letters were forged and not written by Mata ji.

I mentioned Brahm Kavach because there are two variants with slight difference. The Buddha Dal one and the Hazur Sahib one. The Buddha Dal one is said to be the correct one. Can you show me Sarbloh Kavach and Ram Kavach.

Liberal Gorre may have their negative points but they are still a 100 times better than these conservative (often Racist) Gore. Just as there is anti semitism, Islamo phobia, I think it is safe to say there definitely is Sikh phobia as well. Usually we always link hatred towards Sikhs with Islamo phobia because they confuse us as Muslims. But the recent anti Sikh attitude in media (especially Canadian media) and rebel media is clearly Sikh phobia.

Brahm Kavach as shown in Buddha Dal Gutkas. It is the words of Guru Hargobind Sahib ji Maharaj. It is to be recited every morning 32 times.

I still remember when rebel media made that video about Muslims grooming Sikh girls. Many people were happy not realizing that the only time these racist Gore ever speak in favour of Sikhs is if it is against Muslims plus they need to gather allies to fight Muslims. Otherwise they hate us almost as much as they hate Muslims. And check out all the Hindus cheering this video not realizing that deep inside they hate you just as much as they hate us. They're just using Hindus against Sikhs and Sikhs against Muslims.

This is a recent trend in India by mainly Muslims and liberal Hindu historians to deny atrocities by Muslim rulers. The denial of the story of Padmini or Padmavati is a perfect example of this. They say this because the poet Jaisi wrote about this story hundreds of years after the event occurred. But they fail to take into consideration that this is how Indian history was generally recorded. First the heroic event takes place, then it is remembered and passed down orally from generation to generation until it is eventually recorded in written form as a qissa/qasida by a poet. The denial of Padmavati is not the only example. Liberal Hindu historians like Ram Puniyani has completely white washed the atrocities of Aurangzeb. Listen to his bias views of why atrocities were committed on the family of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. He completely changes history and presents Aurangzeb as an amazingly liberal secular ruler

the Muslims made a huge mistake by creating Pakistan in 1947. Had Pakistan not been created, today Indian sub continental Muslim population would have been close to 550 million and that number is set to grow. India's Hindus are not aggressive nor strong enough to handle so many Muslims. What partition did was to cut the Muslim population down to size. Size small enough that the Hindus can handle.

AKJ shouldn't use Purewal's calendar. AKJ people who use Purewal calendar are going against Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and the respected Rangle Sajjan who all used Bikrami calendar to celebrate Gurpurbs. Why modern AKJ wants to break tradition of their founders is strange. Our Gurus all used Bikrami calendar for celebrating Gurpurbs. Gurbani uses Bikrami calendar. No sincere Sikh should go against traditions set by our Gurus, Gurbani and respected Gursikhs.

I have noticed in the west, Malwai Sikhs are generally the most religious of the Punjabis. Their girls are usually more traditional. Otherwise they are also good people. They help their relatives in India and even help them come over to settle in the west.

you can say Diwali or Bandhi Chod Divas. Both are acceptable watch this

I feel this is what many claim in order to give a heroic narrative of their women folk who were most probably abducted and married off as in the case of Anita Ranis grandmother. I have asked many elders from Malwa and Doaba if they had heard of cases of Muslim women in their region sacrificing themselves like the Pothohar women instead of being caught and they never heard such a thing. I'm not saying it never happened but is certainly was not so common in East Punjab.

Amrit Pal Singh Amrit has recently released some very good videos about the partition. This video is about the famous Thoha Khalsa village in Pothohar which sadly is famous for the Sikh woman who had jumped into wells in large numbers to save themselves from being raped by mobs In This video Amrit Pal Singh gets emotional while narrating what had happened and no doubt you probably will too. The Pothoharis women are probably the only women that really jumped into wells and was documented by the media and third party sources of the time. Most Punjabis who had their women abducted and lost forever like Anita Rani's grandfather's first wife just copied this narrative for their own women since in our culture it is the heroic thing for a woman to do like Rajput women of old did in their famous Johar tradition.

The police informers were planted by police from the start and were ultimately the downfall of all the Jathebandis. Just one informer would be responsible for the arrest and killings of the other Singhs in his cell. Babbar Khalsa had by far the best solution for this which was to only recruit that Sikh who has the entire Nitnem memorized. memorizing the entire Nitnem was too much hassle for most police officers and requires real dedication. But I have known from my relative in India that he had a friend who was such a police officer that had memorized Nitnem and grown his beard and kesh just so he could infiltrate Babbars and it is said he had killed some Kharkus as well. He was given promotions for this but later he was killed in a car accident during the late 90s. Some Babbars were really rehitvaan Singhs. Shaheed Gurpal Singh Babbar and Shaheed Anokh Singh Babbar are said to have been Brahmgianis. Baba Manuchahal had open recruitment policy. Anyone could come and join his group. Baba ji ruled over a large area. Being a former soldier was also a trained fighter as were other Kharkus in his group. Kharkus had their own justice system parallel to the courts. While the court cases would take years but the Kharkus would do justice quickly and fairly. From my own relatives from Nanke in Amritsar tell me of a case where they were being bothered by their Shreek family after my MamaJi had died they tried to take over my Mamaji's share of the Jameen. The Kharkus were approached who heard both sides and did quick justice by telling the Shreek to stay away from the Jameen that now rightfully belongs to the widow and children of the diseased.

You are correct. For anand karaj both must be Sikh.

She has accepted Sikh, so she is no longer Muslim. I think a lot of Sikh guys who have Muslim girlfriends do not marry them because their parents would not accept it. In the past I know of cases of my own friends who had Muslim girlfriends but did not marry them because their parents would not accept such a marriage. One friend was a mona of Ramgaria background and his girlfriend was Pakistani Punjabi. She was very much interested in becoming a Sikh because she had a very positive view of Sikhs. My friend did not marry her because he was very scared of his strict father who he knew would disapprove of this. My 2nd friend was a Mona of Jatt background. He was involved with an Indian Muslim girl. This girl even wore a hijab and really wanted to marry him and out of love was even willing to become a Sikh. But my friend refused because his parents would strongly disapprove of their daughter in law not being of Jatt Sikh background. The 3rd guy was a friend of a friend. He belonged to a particular Sikh group(which I will not mention) and he was involved with an Arab Muslim girl. I think she was of Lebanese or Palestinian background. She became interested in marrying him and even showed interest in joining the particular Sikh group he was involved in. But he refused because he did not want to become the topic of discussion in that group by marrying her.