United

Chatanga, Thank you for starting a thread about a very important topic. Having been aware of this issue for quite a while and seeing the Facebook page, this is an issue that I feel strongly about. It is a shame how Gurdwaras in Indian Punjab are maintained very well where as across the border in Pakistan Punjab, our historical Gurdwaras are crumbling. In our Ardas, we say ‘Sri Nanakana Sahib, te hor Gurdwarian, jinna Panth ton vichoriya gya hai, khulleh Darshan deedar, Seva sambal da daan Khalsa Ji nu baksho.’ It seems as if the Khalsa Panth is doing very little do bring this part of the Ardas into fruition. There are in fact many perceivable and unforeseeable obstacles that the Panth would face by attempting to regain control of these important sites. Though we are aware of many of the historical Gurdwaras, there could may well be far more sites that are not known and would need to be located. However, there is a book called the Historical Sikh Shrines of Pakistan by Iqbal Qaiser in which numerous Gurdwaras have been documented. Locating these historical sites would not be very difficult as we could consult a wide range of sources such as our historical Granths, scholars, people etc. Many of these Gurdwaras are now used for other purposes such as schools. The problem is that gaining control of these sites could be very difficult. The reason being that while it is easy to suggest that the Khalsa Panth buy back this land, with this could come further complications. Many of the inhabiting institutions may not even want to relocate which could either leave us powerless to act further, or even take legal action which would be very difficult as the majority of Sikhs are not even residents of the areas where these historical sites exist. It may not even be financially viable to buy back and renovate all these sites on such a large scale as there are probably hundreds of such sites in Pakistan- coordination of such a mammoth task would need a lot of resources with a professional attitude. For example, I saw on the site that a Gurdwara that commemorated the visit of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was destroyed and the land was turned into a bus stop. How does the Khalsa Panth work with town planners etc to restore such a site? With this in mind, the Khalsa Panth would need to act very wisely if it wishes to keep all sites i.e. with careful diplomacy. Though there may be many successful renovations of sites, if they are being used by people unwilling to give up the site to the Panth, further and permanent damage could be caused. For instance, residents may end up altering the structures, defacing frescos and building or even destroy the site to make it look as if there was never a Gurdwara even there. In this case, these sites could vanish forever. In terms of getting the work done, Kaar Seva would be ideal, but would be too difficult as it would seem unlikely that the Pakistan Government would let such a mass influx of Indian nationals into the country. Perhaps it would be easier to have contractors carry out the building work, although not completely within Sikh tradition, but many Gurdwaras in the West are built this way.I believe that it is important that the original architecture and art of the buildings should be preserved as much as possible. For these the Panth would need to consult people with the right knowledge of preserving old structures and ancient artworks. I do not believe that it would be difficult to maintain these Gurdwaras at all, provided the right steps are taken. Yes, there would be a lack of sangat, but look at how countries operate embassies and high commissions in foreign countries. Perhaps the Panth could somehow arrange to have a resident caretaker team of each Gurdwara who could be posted there for a particular period of time. Personally, I do not feel that it is necessary to have Parkash there at all times, maybe only on certain festivals. The reason being due to the lack of sangat and it may be too difficult to practice proper satkaar at all times. However, maybe these Gurdwaras could be transformed into semi-museums where at least the significance of the site can be brought to illumination to non-worshippers if the building is not having Parkash of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This would serve the interests of the local residents, Pakistan and perhaps even generate some sort of income for the Gurdwaras. An example is in the UK how many cathedrals charge a small price, sometimes voluntary, to help preserve and maintain themselves. Though many may argue that there is no point of there being Gurdwaras there as there is no sangat, the issue is that these are places deeply connected to our Guru Sahibs, some of the most famous Sakhian documented in our historical Granths occurred at those sites which are now in ruins. For example, there are many Gurdwaras in Punjab (India) called Damdama Sahib, that commemorate the stay of Guru Sahib for only a few days, which are revered greatly. Why not show the same respect to those Gurdwaras in Pakistan? The bottom line is, it is betterfor the Panth to show the respect and interest that these sites that have a deep historical and spiritual connection with our Guru Sahib that they deserve now. Otherwise, when they are demolished as planning permission has been approved for some global corporation to build a massive shopping complex, we have no right to be suddenly up in arms- it will be too late. United

This is a very important issue for the Panth. One that I feel is neglected.There are many sites in Pakistan and even in Afghanistan that are from the times of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. If we do not act quickly, these will be gone forever. I cannot imagine how many other existing and former sites there are associated with our Guru Sahibaans. Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled way beyond the subcontinent, I wonder how many forgotten places there are. Does anyone know if there are currently any efforts ongoing to preserve our heritage sites?

Following on from what Only Five has said, I do not know if the concept of Satguru was mentioned in any other religious scriptures before being revealed to us by our Guru Sahibaan and Bhagat Sahibaans. But I would imagine that in a land in which there are many self-proclaimed Gurus, religious guides, preachers/clerics even in the present day, the concept of a Guru was surely prevalent during the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. It can be argued that Moses, Jesus, Hazrat Muhammad Sahib and many other religious teachers and prophets can also be considered as Gurus (to their respective followers, not according to Gurmat) because according to their followers, they showed the path of truth. At a time when the concept of a Guru was widely known and throughout history there have been so many prophets, religious guides, Peers etc., what is the purpose of Guru Sahib informing us of something called the Satguru, the True Guru? pauVI ] Pauree: ndir krih jy AwpxI qw ndrI siqguru pwieAw ] If the Merciful Lord shows His Mercy, then the True Guru is found. eyhu jIau bhuqy jnm BrMimAw qw siqguir sbdu suxwieAw ] This soul wandered through countless incarnations, until the True Guru instructed it in the Word of the Shabad. siqgur jyvfu dwqw ko nhI siB suixAhu lok sbwieAw ] There is no giver as great as the True Guru; hear this, all you people. siqguir imilAY scu pwieAw ijn@I ivchu Awpu gvwieAw ] Meeting the True Guru, the True Lord is found; He removes self-conceit from within, ijin sco scu buJwieAw ]4] and instructs us in the Truth of Truths. ||4|| Clearly Satguru Ji in His Bani is telling us that there is no one like Him,' ijin sco scu buJwieAw ]4]', who gave us the complete truth. This implies that before Satguru Ji this was not known. If one reads Sri Anand Sahib, Guru Sahib is telling clearly tells us that the highest level of spirituality cannot be attained without coming to the charan of Guru Sahib. Kaljugi you have asked very interesting questions. Attempts to answer these could easily run into volumes and perhaps we will never truly even be able to answer these questions. It is difficult to do so without running into the risk of getting into a debate of 'my religion is greater than your religion'. Essentially, it is a debate about why they follow their religion and why we follow ours. Followers of different religions usually view things in through different paradigms and religions can create such a mindset that it is difficult to think beyond those levels of thinking. This is why it is usually so difficult for followers of Abrahamic faiths to understand concepts like Nirgun-Sargun saroop, becoming one with God and transmigration of the soul. However, many people across the globe are looking for a sense of stability, are on a quest for finding the truth and some guidance in their lives. I believe that the fact that Abrahamic religions claim a monopoly on the truth, provides complete guidance on almost every aspect of life gives people a certain level of peace. Islamic scholars have put forth the argument that the Quran was revealed to Hazrat Muhammad Sahib who was illiterate, in beautiful Arabic poetry, so many prophecies and gave the same message as the Biblical lineage of Prophets as proof of why Islam is the complete truth. Furthermore, there are so called Ayaats (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons) in the Quran that Muslims use to test what other religions say and inform people of the correct way to worship God. There are many such arguments for why Muslims believe what they believe. Viewing this from the perspective of a Muslim, it can be seen why they are convinced that their religion is the truth and why they feel they have a duty to propagate this to the world. Sikhs are also similar in this respect. We too look at the message of Gurbani which we regard as the complete truth. We look at the accomplishments of our great Guru Sahibaans and also what He enabled his Sikhs to do. Guru Sahib taught us that we do not have to wait until we die to experience God, this can be accomplished while someone is alive. Coming back to the theme of this thread, the fact that Jap Ji Sahib tells us that there are different Khands, gives the message that there are different levels to experiencing the Divine. Bhai Raghbir Singh Ji 'Bir' writes in Bandaginama that everything in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, can be seen for oneself. We look at the jeevan of great Mahapurakhs who have demonstrated to us the highest level of Sikhi. We too would find it difficult to believe what other religions believe because it is difficult for us to escape viewing things through the lense of Sikhi.

Totally understand you when it comes to Muslims not understanding that concept. Though I accept that different religions have different experiences of God, I fail to understand how it is possible for a Muslim (just an example) who has reached Sachkhand to even remain a Muslim. As per my understanding, he would have rejected the basic belief of Islam that 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet', the Qur'an as the final revelation onto humanity, and that there will be a day of judgement. According to Gurbani souls are judged by Dharam Rai, on a continuous basis as opposed to the Islamic view that bodies would be resurrected and judged on the Day of Judgement. Gurbani is clearly from the abode of God himself. The two views are clearly in conflict with each other and it would be impossible for a Muslim (who has reached Sachkhand) to remain a Muslim if he realises the truth as given to us by Gurbani. However, it appears it is different if an adherent of a faith other than Sikhi through his or her karams starts to become closer to God. There is no doubt that people following other religions do very good deeds and practice great devotion to God. Perhaps this leads them to be born into Sikh households later in succeeding births or find Gursikhi later in their lives? Though this might be a separate topic. Maybe it is the case that as people progress in their spirituality as followers of other religions they realise that it may be unnecessary to maintain certain rituals in their respective religions. It seems like this was the case during the time when our Guru Sahibaan were in human body e.g. Bhai Lehna before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Ji. According to Gurbani, is it not true that no one attained God (Sachkhand, where Nirankaar resides) without Satguru Ji? Though one can come from any religious background, I fail to understand how one can offer utmost faith and devotion to Satguru Ji yet still be a follower of another religion.

Singstah's contribution to this thread makes the most sense to me. I am no expert on this topic but I have also been led to believe that Sikhi is the only way to Sachkhand. As Kaljugi said, if a follower of an Abhrahamic religion, he or she would have to go against the very fundamental beliefs of his or her religion. For example, for a Muslim who has reached Sachkhand while alive, this would mean accepting that he or she would not have to wait until the Day of Judgement to be sent to either Paradise or Hell-fire. Islam also states that Muhammad is the final Prophet, so a Muslim who has reached Sachkhand would need to disagree with this. Though other religions can bring one closer to God, I believe that Sachkhand is only reached by those who are fully attuned with the truth as given to us by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Though through good karams one can surely get closer to God, but to reach Sachkhand one must be a Brahmgyani and true Brahmgyan is only available with the Grace of Guru Sahib. Having said this I am no authority on this topic or on Gurmat.

The dilemma that many Panthic Singhs face is that if they are to work within current framework of institutions (SGPC, political parties etc.) is that this would mean working with people who are either anti-Panthic or are allied with those who are anti-Panthic. For example, if one wanted to become a member of Shromani Akali Dal (Badal) and bring about positive changes within the party, this would require working with people who are allied with one of the biggest cause for the horrible state of the Quom. The problem here is that this would require a very two-faced approach to politics which strongly contradicts Gurmat. One would need to be very fake and maintain smiles with people he/she secretly dislikes. In my opinion, no Chardikala Gursikh would be willing to do this and this is why I understand the approach Bhai Amrik Singh Ji takes to affairs of the Panth.

I know exactly how you feel and the truth is there is a part of everyone that has thought this or is thinking this, but it's just an understanding of Gurmat and a level of faith that should get you through this. Yes there is so much inequality in this world, so many so called 'imperfections', which can make us think that how can there still be a loving God watching over us. Truth is, the whole world is working in the will of Akaal Purakh, nothing that happens in the universe is out of the will (Hukam) of Akaal Purakh. We can sit here and pondering our whole lives about why Vaheguru ji has created such situations in the world like suffering, death, destruction etc, but there is no limit to the questions we can ask. We have got to understand that everything in the world has an opposite and that is what gives things value. If there was always peace, it would hold no value because it would be something taken for granted as there is no suffering. If we never felt cold, there weren't people sleeping out in the cold, how would be appreciate our warm beds? If we didn't feel hungry, people starving, how would we appreciate every meal? If there wasn't any tyranny, how would Guru Sahib have shown his Parupkaar? All these people suffering give us an opportunity to do God's work, good karams, Seva and even people who receive help is because of their past deeds. Important thing to remember is that all beings are really their souls, living beings (human, animals etc) are all in those forms and situations (poverty, suffering, rich, poor) because of their karams. All of these things fit together make the world perfect because it is in the hukam of Akaal Purakh. I would simply advice you to read bani with understanding and study the lives of the Guru Sahibaans as they too went under many hardships (which is just a fact of life). The body can go through many hardships but it is the state of the mind/soul that determines whether they cause suffering or not. When one's mind, body and soul is immersed in Gurmat, no suffering can come to you.

1. First of all, explain to him that a Sikh of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj does not need and is not permitted to consumer any intoxicant apart from Naam. If he wants to get high, he should get high with rass of Naam and not drugs, thats where true bliss lies. 2. He may be able to hide his actions from the whole world, but Guru Sahib is Antarjaami (all-knowing) and he cannot hide anything from Guru Sahib. 3. Khalsa is one who is in a constant state of battle. One may face hundreds of thousands of temptations but each temptation to violate Rehat is like a dusht attacking the Sikh. Khalsa should strive to be victorious over these temptations and stay firm in his (or her) Rehat. Thousands of Singhs and Singhni's gave their lives to keep their Rehat and Sikhi intact, and he's considering giving up his Sikhi because he is tempted to smoke Marijuana? 4. Violating rehat is like handing over a badawa (letter of resignation) to Guru Sahib stating that you are no longer a Sikh of the Guru. If he smokes weed, he is forsaking his pyarey Guru Sahib. 5. He must read more Gurbani. Nitnem is a must and a few Sukhmani Sahibs and Chaupai Sahibs is very important. Also, listen to more katha and Kirtan. If he listens to contemprary music which may glamorise smoking cannabis, he must stop and replace this music with Gurbani Kirtan. 6. He must keep Sangat of Gursikhs who do not promote Cannabis. Everyone knows the effect Sangat can have on an individual. If possible, tell him to engage in more Seva. 7. Ardas. You and your cousin should do ardas to Guru Maharaj and ask Guru ji to save his Sikh. Guru Sahib always looks after his Sikhs, just take a few steps towards your Guru and Guru ji shall take many towards you.

Neverforget84 ji, How are the children coping in their education? Are they able to attend school? Thank you for letting us know of this seva that needs to be carried out. United

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Perhaps you could research into the interaction between the bid for a Sikh state and international institutions. I'm sure there are protocols governing into self-determination of various stateless nations and it would be interesting to see how this relates to the founding of a Sikh state. However, for any dissertation/thesis, you will need to have access to a significant volume of literature and I'm not sure whether you will be able to find much literature on such a specialised issue. Best wishes, United

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! I would just like to share my interpretation of "Aarti" i may be wrong but please correct me in that case. rwgu DnwsrI mhlw 1 ] Raag Dhanaasaree, First Mehl ggn mY Qwlu riv cMdu dIpk bny qwirkw mMfl jnk moqI ] Upon that cosmic plate of the sky, the sun and the moon are the lamps. The stars and their orbs are the studded pearls DUpu mlAwnlo pvxu cvro kry sgl bnrwie PUlµq joqI ]1] The fragrance of sandalwood in the air is the temple incense, and the wind is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1|| kYsI AwrqI hoie ] Bv KMfnw qyrI AwrqI ] What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is! O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light. Okay, heres how i personally think of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is kinda like saying that the sky is the plate on which the lights are (the hindus have a plate/ thaal on which there are candles). Guru Ji is using metaphors. He says that there are stars which are the pearls and the moon and sun are the lamps. The sandlewood in the air is the temple incense (thoof) and the wind is the fan and all the plants in the wold are the flowers as offerings to God. Then Guru Nanak kinda like praises this type of aartee, the aartee of God. When Guru Ji says that all these things are the aartee for God then what's the point in still using a thaalee, candles, thoof etc when there are much greater things like stars, suns, moons? Whats the point in offering flowers when all the flowers of the world are already a offering to God anyway? p.s. this is like one of my first proper posts kinda nervous lol

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! I would just like to share my interpretation of "Aarti" i may be wrong but please correct me in that case. rwgu DnwsrI mhlw 1 ] Raag Dhanaasaree, First Mehl ggn mY Qwlu riv cMdu dIpk bny qwirkw mMfl jnk moqI ] Upon that cosmic plate of the sky, the sun and the moon are the lamps. The stars and their orbs are the studded pearls DUpu mlAwnlo pvxu cvro kry sgl bnrwie PUlµq joqI ]1] The fragrance of sandalwood in the air is the temple incense, and the wind is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1|| kYsI AwrqI hoie ] Bv KMfnw qyrI AwrqI ] What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is! O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light. Okay, heres how i personally think of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is kinda like saying that the sky is the plate on which the lights are (the hindus have a plate/ thaal on which there are candles). Guru Ji is using metaphors. He says that there are stars which are the pearls and the moon and sun are the lamps. The sandlewood in the air is the temple incense (thoof) and the wind is the fan and all the plants in the wold are the flowers as offerings to God. Then Guru Nanak kinda like praises this type of aartee, the aartee of God. When Guru Ji says that all these things are the aartee for God then what's the point in still using a thaalee, candles, thoof etc when there are much greater things like stars, suns, moons? Whats the point in offering flowers when all the flowers of the world are already a offering to God anyway? p.s. this is like one of my first proper posts kinda nervous lol

Why even call these people gianis? Gianis are ppl wth spiritual knowledge n stuff like that. If they truly were sikhs and "gianis" they wudnt do stuff like that or so i think they do not deserve to be called gianis. i kinda think these days the title giani has been misused . May Guru Ji show them the right way. Also, it is important that you do something about it, he could be doing it to more people. Tell a Gurdwara official or something. This is injustice and as a sikh it is important to fight that.

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh! I been thinking for a while now that it is kind of essential that you love the Guru and God in order to meet God. Becauase if you love Guru ji you would probably would do anything for him and if you love God you would realise that you are separated from Him. I want to use this approach to Sikhi that i really want to Love God and i know that this will be a motivation. How can i Love God? I don't mean this in a bad way but Naam Simran is kind of Boring or maybe im not doing it properly can someone please inform me how can i love God?