BhForce

Khalis, thanks for the links. How do you download from the first link (for Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan)? Much better to have an mp3 you can play anywhere than to have to listen through a browser (which I couldn't get it to do either).

SikhiParchar, thanks for this long but informative post on Major Sandhu. Whatever your opinion on S. Dhadriawale, it's hard to understand why they were afraid to make their points in front of thousands of people where they could have had the most impact. Were they afraid Ranjit Singh Ji would have been able to easily refute their allegations?

Highly laudable. It's good to be married in a multiple marriage even if you're rich. It reduces haumai. S. Dhadrianwale, AKJ, Damdami Taksal, other taksals, Nihang Singhs, NSSS, and everyone else who believes in Amrit, Gurmanter, and Gurbani should come together to preach Sikhi.

There's also another one he performed: Aval Allah nur upaia kudrat ke sabh bande. I don't have a link handy right now, though.

Fordcapri, have you not seen the actual video of S. Dhadrianwale? It takes just 2 minutes: Anyway, S. Dhadrianwale spent just 2 minutes on bogus attacks on preachers, and not just on Babbu Mann (he didn't even mention him by name). This is out of an hours-long divan. The reason he took a few moments about the Mann song is he was shown a video a few hours before the divan, so he just commented on the fact that people are attacking preachers for small things. Also, the original unauthorised video which was on YouTube featured pictures of S. Dhadrianwale.

Basant Ki Vaar is a very short bani (only 3 pauris) which is a favourite of many Sikhs to recite daily. For any admins reading this: Can you turn off the "feature" whereby typing the word v-a-r (without hyphens) gets turned into // after you post?

Fordcapri, I understand that you're against bad babas and superstitions. It's all the more baffling then, for me to understand why you're against S. Dhadrianwale, who speaks against superstitions. People give money to S. Dhadrianwale exactly because he shows normal, real Sikhism to people. I.e., take amrit, read bani, and do what it says. They give money to further the parchar. Yes, he does. Have you listened to any of his divans or CDs? They are available on the Internet. Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Ji are full of philosophy, teaching, and ethics. That's what he translates from. If you think otherwise, please provide a clip in which he asks the sangat to wear jadu-tune (amulets). Again, he does talk against superstitions. Yes, it's true the literal meaning of guru is leading out of darkness. Again, everybody is against bad babas. As for S. Dhadrianwale, you don't even have to give a single penny or paisa if you don't want to. That's exactly what S. Dhadrianwale does, tell people to connect with Guru Granth Sahib. If you're already connected with Guru Sahib, then I guess you might think S. Dhadrianwale is superflouous. His parchar is mainly for people that have no clue what Sikhi is.

Drogba, if you want the controversy in a few sentences: Imagine someone said your father (wordly father) isn't really your father. And they told you a whole long tale about how you're really a <banned word filter activated>. Even if your parents were to reassure you, you'd still be left with a kernel of doubt. Basically that's where we're at with Dasmesh Ji's bani. People sowing doubt about Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani amoung the sangat. It's claimed that some unknown Brahmin made up the whole Dasam Granth at some unknown point in history, about which the opponents of Dasam Granth are in disagreement. The opponents of Dasam Granth seem to translate the Dasam Granth with the most anti-Sikh translations, and then go on to so Dasam Granth itself is anti-Sikh. The proponents of Sikhi as it's been practiced for the last few centuries have pointed out the that stated reasons for objecting to Dasam Granth are also present in Guru Granth Sahib, and sooner or later, opponents of Dasam Granth will also start objecting to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That has already started now. See If you want detailed information, read this: http://gurmatvichar.info/files/dasam-granth.pdf The other books here are also good: http://gurmatvichar.info/publications.html Oh, I forgot to mention, you'll have no basis on which to even begin to understand Dasam Bani if you haven't read all of Gurbani, and Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaars. So read them, all, in order, and then Dasam Bani and you'll be OK. But if you just read a few anti-Dasam Granth books without reading and understanding bani, your brain will be fried.

Yes. Many people are working on it. One guy made a video, another uploaded it on Youtube, one posted it on Sikhsangat and several others made comments. Whence did you ever get so jaded, Mehtab Singh?

Great post! We should always give thanks to God for whatever he chooses to give us. "Jithai tu rakhe bakhunt tithai" Whereever you keep me, that is heaven for me.

-Sabad Vartara. Heretic group which denies Dasam bani, Bhai Gurdas ji, Khalsa rehit, etc. -Veer Bhupinder Singh, The Living Treasure -Surjit Singh Missionary heads some "gurmat" parchar group in Delhi -Many organisations that used to limit themselves to politics are being hijacked for anti-Dasam bani purposes in the mistaken belief that that's the way to bring reform in the gurdwaras. Example being Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh. -Sikh Sundesh. -Sikh Phulwari (by Sikh Missionary College Ludhiana) has published such articles, I believe, although the rest is somewhat OK -Sada Virsa (by Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle) has published such articles, I believe, although the rest is somewhat OK -Fateh Publications (Inder Singh Ghagga's group) -The Sikh Affairs (Heretic Faridabad group denies Dasmesh Ji's bani) -Sukhwinder Singh Sabra's group (what is it?) By the way, what's the name of the press that published Kala Afghan's books? Akal Press, or something like that?

That seems like a good suggestion. There's a tuk in Gurbani and in Bhai Gurdas Ji's vars which says in Kalyug, marriage is like a sauda (deal) and the woman cares not where her husband goes "bhave tau kuthau jaiee" (if goes to good places or bad), she is just concerned with her monetary benefits.

You don't have to wait until 5 or 11 years of age. It's probably better to start at a few months of age. You can find plenty of pictures of Nihang Singh's children at about 3 or so wearing full bana. Suddenly springing the turban on children when they're almost in puberty is probably going to seem like a big shock. If they've already been wearing a dastar for as long as they can remember, it'll be all that more difficult to not wear one. As far as dastarbandi not being a specifically mentioned sanskar, well, ideally everything you do is preceded by ardas. So, you wouldn't necessarily have a specific final exams sanskar, new house sanskar, new car sanskar, etc. but you'd still do ardas for them. Inviting a family and friends and doing some kirtan just cements the importance of dastar in the young child's head.

In my opinion Babbu Maan is getting far too much credit for what he did (which is basically just write a song). The whole thing seems to have started when S. Dhadrianwale commented on the matter. Even then, he didn't mention him by name, he was just commenting on something someone showed him a few hours before his divan on a mobile phone. There are plenty of other "worldly" singers who also indulge in releasing a religious album here or there, including Miss Pooja, Monica Bedi, Akshay Kumar and others. Or, if you say that Maan touched political topics, well, I don't think it's anything that Nabhe Valian Bibian or other jathas haven't touched on before. They actually were tortured for their songs. So it's funny when if Mann sings a few such lines, he becomes a diamond of the panth.

The reason, I think, the kids were dancing was simply because they got them from the "GuruKul" dance academy. That's basically all they know how to do. http://www.gurukularts.com/gallery.html Some days they put on a bhangra suit or choli/lehnga, other days a chola. It was very wrong to attack a Sikh preacher (S. Dhadrianwale) when the stated purpose of the event was to put aside differences for a day (a single day!), and come together. If the OnePanth group are free from blame because the dancers/actors changed their scripts, then the blame falls on the actors' organisers. The first video shows some dancing to a general Sikh song. The second video is anti-baba skit with someone made up to be a baba, and the Babbu Mann song playing in the background. The funny thing is, even though they want to preach that you shouldn't matha tek to anybody other than Guru Sahib, that's exactly what they do in the skit! Even the adults! If they really wanted to be panthic, they could have made the baba out to be the Radha Swami baba, or the Sacha Sauda baba. Instead, they explicitly made the baba a Sikh, with a khanda on his dastar. What do they have against Khalsa bana? They're basically teaching these poor children to be faithless cynics. Oh, one more thing: Although they claim to be big anti-idolators, it's funny how in the first video, they bring out a photo of Bhagat Singh and S. Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale on opposite sides of the stage. Then, the kids genuflect (get down on their knees) and fold their hands before the picture of Bhagat Singh! How's that for anti-idolatry? Meanwhile Kala Afghana and the Spokesman say bowing before Guru Granth Sahib Ji is idolatry. LOL If you don't worship God, you'll have to worship something. Bhagat Singh, Karl Marx, whoever.

Bloom, thanks for sharing this recording. While according to the Bible, Jesus declared that he had brought salvation for the Jews, there is no other Prophet to my knowledge that declares the unity of mankind as does Guru Gobind Singh Ji. As a father, he is responsible for all his children. The shabad also states "sabh hi ki gurdev ek" which I believe means that all of humanity should (voluntarily) accept Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru.

fordcapri, bajjar kurehitis should definitely be exposed with solid evidence (as you said above). Everyone is already against bad babas. The question is why some people are trying to stop someone (S. Dhadrianwale) doing Sikhi parchar on the basis of a few flimsy objections. As for the question of nindia, every Gursikh (not just a sant) has the right to the benefit of the doubt until such time as it be proven that he has committed some violation of the basic Khalsa rehit.

yoda brother, what do you mean by "kick the babe" out of Sikhi? Do you mean excommunicate them? I find that interesting as most of the missionaries and friends (such as HS Dilgeer and Spokesman) seem to think that there's no thing such as excommunication. As for the babey, do you mean bad babas who have actually done something wrong (such as Chicago, Dhanwant Singh, etc), or does that include anyone who preaches Sikhi, but isn't a missionary? And will Kala Afghana (police car thief and convicted rapist), Ghagga (Electricity board thief), etc. also be thrown out? Finally, as I asked in another thread, what "Kehar" (calamity) did S. Dhadrianwale bring on Sikhi by telling people to keep their hair, take amrit, and read bani? How did S. Dhadrianwale steal money with a chimta? Or jewelry?

This is basically a vicious video attacking 1) people who are doing Sikhi parchar and 2) bad babas including Radha Swami and Sacha Sauda, and just mixing the two together, which shouldn't be mixed. I wrote out some of the lyrics in English if someone wants a look: Some comments: What exactly is it that missionaries have against chimtas and dholkis? Granted, they're not the epitome of Raag Kirtan, but as a tool for singing in sangat, they're fine. Since the current topic is Dhadrianwale (and since DasmeshForce posted the link to this video in a thread entitled "Replies to Dhadrianwala") I'd like to ask: -Does Dhadrianwale live in a house like Sachkand? -Does he loot money? -If missionaries say, "You can wear whatever you want", why are they so against white clothes, or Punjabi clothes, or cholas? -What's wrong with keeping good relations with the media? Should you keep bad relations with the media? -What does Dhadrianwale have in common with Brampton, Thailand, Nurmehal, Chicago babas? -What do missionaries have against a dumalla and khandas? Why do they hate Khalsa bana so much? Also, do missionaries work for free, or do the missionary colleges charge for their booklets? (They charge for them. Oh, and as for the video objecting to credit cards, I see that the missionary college solicits credit card donations ("loot"?) here: http://www.sikhmissionarycollege.org/page.php?id=39 ) As for fordcapri's call for secret filming and outing of bad babas, I welcome it. Any and all bad babas should be ousted. Anyway, if anyone had anything really bad about S. Dhadrianwale (like a bajjar kurehit), would they be bothering with small stuff like khandas and so forth? S. Dhadrianwale has already stated that anyone including the biggest sants are not above the Khalsa rehit, and that surely includes himself, so I hope either the evidence will be forthcoming, or else if we're not going to help him reach the unlettered portion of the population of Punjab, at least we can stop standing in the way.

Thanks for pointing this out about the SoDar pauri. In all of the fuss about the amazing creatures from the Bachittar Natak, we totally forget all of the amazing creations of God from Rehras! I would like to very humbly request any brothers and sisters who are in doubt about Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani to consider what you think about Guru Nanak Dev Ji's bani below. God has created all sorts of magnificent worlds and their inhabitants. Woe to us if we slander what we don't understand: ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ So Dar ~ That Door. Raag Aasaa, First Mehl: ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ ॥ Where is That Door of Yours, and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all? ਵਾਜੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਨਾਦ ਅਨੇਕ ਅਸੰਖਾ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਵਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥ The Sound-current of the Naad vibrates there for You, and countless musicians play all sorts of instruments there for You. ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਰਾਗ ਪਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਗਾਵਣਹਾਰੇ ॥ There are so many Ragas and musical harmonies to You; so many minstrels sing hymns of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥ Wind, water and fire sing of You. The Righteous Judge of Dharma sings at Your Door. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਤੇਰੇ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥ Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned by You, sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਿਧ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਸਾਧ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing of You; the Saadhus sing of You in contemplation. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੀ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਵੀਰ ਕਰਾਰੇ ॥ The celibates, the fanatics, and the peacefully accepting sing of You; the fearless warriors sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਮੋਹਣੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਮੋਹਨਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in paradise, in this world, and in the underworld of the subconscious, sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਏ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਲੇ ॥ The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰਾ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖਾਣੀ ਚਾਰੇ ॥ The brave and mighty warriors sing of You. The spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing of You. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ The worlds, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing of You. ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ ॥ They alone sing of You, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with Your Sublime Essence. ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ So many others sing of You, they do not come to mind. O Nanak, how can I think of them all? ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥ That True Lord is True, forever True, and True is His Name. ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥ He is, and shall always be. He shall not depart, even when this Universe which He has created departs. ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥ He created the world, with its various colors, species of beings, and the variety of Maya. ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਆਪਣਾ ਜਿਉ ਤਿਸ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ Having created the creation, He watches over it Himself, by His Greatness. ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਸੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਰਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥ He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him. ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਤਿਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ He is the King, the King of kings, the Supreme Lord and Master of kings. Nanak remains subject to His Will. ||1||

Agreed, we should all work for as much unity as possible. Try to phrase disagreements in such a way as to bring everyone together.

As a summary, basically Bloom is saying that just like someone named Akal isn't the real Akal, or someone (today) named Jesus was named after another, the Jesus from 2000 years ago, similarly, it's Shiv and Raam must have been named after some other Shiv or Raam, which we would take to be God. In the second post, Bloom encouraged us to be open-minded, as there are all sorts of possibilities which lead to Gurbani being true, as opposed to simply mythological poetry. The link was to an article and CNN video about a girl born recently with four arms due to a genetic mutation.

Thank you for posting this news. Kudos to Manpreet Singh for standing up for 10th Master's bani. The indoctrination of thinking of Damesh Ji's Bani as a plot against the panth has reached a fever pitch. Above it says Daljeet Singh is Chairman of the Dharm Parchar Committe, but I thought there was a Chairman Tarsem Singh who is anti Dasmesh Bani. Anybody know?

For those that don't want to bother to read the article, the BBC used the Khanda symbol in a rape report. This is outrageous. Do they show a Christian cross when an Englishman rapes someone?

What's to say, it's Delhi. One the one hand, you have different Indian restaurant every night. And on the other, it's not like anyone is plowing fields.