BhForce

What? You mean to say people stopped celebrating Vaisakhi after Guru Sahib created the Khalsa? No, they simply did not. Not only that, Hindus celebrate Vaisakhi (under other names) throughout India, including: Bikhu or Bikhauti in the Kumaon region of Uttarakhand, India Bisu – Tulu New Year Day amongst the Tulu people in India Rongali Bihu in Assam, India Edmyaar 1 (Bisu Changrandi) – Kodava New Year. Maha Vishuva Sankranti (or Pana Sankranti) in Odisha, India JurShital (New Year) in Mithila (parts of Nepal and Bihar, India) Naba Barsha or Pohela Boishakh in West Bengal and Tripura, India, Nepal and Bangladesh Ugadi in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Telangana, India Puthandu in Tamil Nadu, India Vishu in Kerala, India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaisakhi#Month_of_Vaisakh_celebrations_in_Hinduism It would have been better if you had simply stated that some Sikhs believe Guru Nanak ji was born on Baisakhi, instead of making the outright claim that Guru ji indeed was. The former is an undeniable true fact, the latter is a tenuous claim. Do you sitting in the 21st century know better the Bhai Gurdas ji who references the traditional date of Kattak Puranmashi? Used to be? It is a harvest festival (present tense). The day was used by Guru Sahib. It was not "transformed" or banned, because there was no need for banning. Punjabis didn't worship idols on Vaisakhi, they merely celebrated the harvest. Devolved? Why do you feel a need to use that word? There's simply nothing wrong with celebrating the harvest. Yeah, for Sikhs it's about the Khalsa Panth. For Punjabis it is about (authentic) Bhangra dancing and colorful clothes. However, free food is not a Vaisakhi/Punjabi tradition, it's a Sikh tradition of Langar. Why would you denigrate the Sikh institution of Langar? Free food is not handed out at (inauthentic) Bhangra parties. It's handed out at Nagar Kirtans to the Sangat (or non-Sikhs, too). Another culture?! It's out culture, man. Guru Sahib chose this day. Are you really serious? You propose to remove every little bit of Punjabi culture from the Sikh panth? I'm just amazed at the self-hatred of our people. You'd never hear a Christian Englishman saying that "we need to ban every last bit of English culture". Great, so keep doing this. Since about the time of the 6th Guru, farmers constitute the largest single group in the Sikh Panth. I can't say if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is reality. I utterly fail to see what you hope to accomplish. Also, if it's so irrelevant, then people won't celebrate it. Problem solved. Why do you need to interpose? OK, so what's the problem? All Sikhs celebrate the celebration of the Khalsa on Vaisakhi. And a great number of Sikhs celebrate the harvest. What are we arguing about? Spoken like you're not a Punjabi yourself. Again, an Englishman would never say "I feel like Englishmen can have a place in the Christian community." So generous of you to offer a place to Punjabis in the Sikh Panth, who are, of course, the very folks (our forefathers) who suffered all the depraved invasions, killings, tortures, thefts, and rapes of the jihadis. When you achieve your desired purge of Punjabi culture, all that remains will not be a "pure" Sikh culture. It will be Anglo culture with an unrecognizable Sikhi. When you say "Punjabis" do you mean to say "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as you because they're not Amritdhari"? Before you go down that road, I would remind you that that there are Sikhs who are more hardcore than you. Maybe @ipledgeblue wears a blue chola and 3 ft kirpan, and could say you're not a Sikh. (I'm not saying he would say that, just that he could. So think before you start calling people non-Sikhs.) It's just stupendous that you would read Sikhs out of our religion just because they're not as knowledgeable as you. This is another reason the definition of a Sikh by SGPC (yeah, hate on) is so good: It doesn't say you have to have Japji Sahib memorized to be a Sikh. It doesn't say you have to be kesadhari, or amritdhari to be a Sikh. It simply states you have to have faith in Akal Purakh, the 10 Gurus, their bani, Guru Granth Sahib, and the 10th Guru's Amrit, which is what all those people that you denigrate as mere "Punjabis" have faith in. You could have just led with that, bro, instead of a whole long essay denigrating our culture and heritage. Who in his right mind would disagree with the above statement? In any case, non-religious music is not allowed at any nagar kirtan that I've seen. The few straggler Gurdwaras should get their act together. I hope we are talking about authentic bhangra, a dance by only men used to celebrate the harvest, not a male-female pop-music dancing gig. No, we must preach against the bad elements of Punjabi culture (such as girl-killing), and also demonstrate Sikhi's superiority over other religions while also demonstrating Punjabi culture's superiority over other cultures.

Username checks out. You clearly believe you're superior to us "normal" Sikhs. How's the air on Mount Olympus?

What terrorists are you talking about? Syria is a country, with a government headed by Assad, not a terrorist organization. Its ally is Russia, and if missiles had hit Russians or Russian bases, or done wider damage, it would have retaliated by hitting American ships, after which I would ask you: do you think the US would not respond? If it would, then that's your WW3.

They are printed by the SGPC. And transported from country to country either by charter plane or by specialized bus created by the SGPC. The detestable publisher Chattar Singh Jivan Singh also publishes copies. I would advise any believing Sikh never to obtain a sarup from them.

Well, I think there are two Sikh perspectives on the issue of Rani Jindan and her "lovers": 1) Extramarital relations are prohibited in Sikhism, and Rani Jind Kaur is to be condemned for her actions. In this narrative, her actions are of a piece with the general debauchery of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's court, which led to complacency, and ultimately defeat and humiliation at the hands of the British. The lack of rehit led to the fall of the Raj. 2) The "history" written by Mohammedans like Mohammed Latif and others is information warfare to impugn the character of actors of the Sikh Raj. In this narrative, the poor Sikhs having false history written about them is of a piece with the Sikhs being betrayed by various courtiers in the Anglo-Sikh wars. The problem is the moment somebody says Rani Jindan was a <banned word filter activated>, and you hear it, it affects you, whether you logically try to tell yourself there's no real proof or not.

Well, your choice, bro. Although I do think you will admit that waiting more time will not elicit less responses, right? One of the reasons I say so is the admin changed up the homepage a few months ago to where it doesn't show the recent topics on top right of the homepage. It shows the top contributors (which is useless), and then the most recent posts (not topics). Posts move fast, the most recent ones obscure the older ones. Topics are more long-lived, but still, the more active topics there are, the more chances they will be obscured. And we all know that huge numbers of people never go into the forums, they just check out what's on the homepage. Anyway, I'd like to ask you to ask the admin to move the "top contributors" back to the bottom left wide column, and put the "recent topics" back in the top right narrow column.

No, brother, I did not. You can't just throw up a video without a few sentences of its import, and expect people to view the whole thing. Anyways, thanks for now doing so. Finally, I would advise this babaji to contact the Buddha Dal with hard info in order to make changes in the Gutka at the source instead of trying to tell random people on the Internet which then means they will possibly tangle with those who read the "incomplete" Brahm Kavach.

Well, the only difference between the Damdami saroop and the original (Aad) granth was the addition of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's bani, meaning a difference of only 1.95%. We're not talking about the difference between a originally it was a granth praising Jehovah and stories of the prophets and now we've got a granth (Guru Granth Sahib) praising the all-pervading God and having hymns, not stories. The fact is Guru Tegh Bahadur ji's bani is basically giving the same message as the Aad Granth, with some differences in style and focus. It is not a radically different message. So, what's the worry? Well, isn't it just cute that the Muslims are talking about us not having the Damdami saroop, since its because the jihadis that we lost it in the first place! It's like killing somebody's dad and then taunting him for being an orphan. Also, it is thought that the saroop given Gurgaddi is a different one from the one created at Damdama. So there's that.

How would you know, bro? I would imagine that the Budha Dal, of all groups, would know what belongs in Brahm Kavach and what doesn't. Anyway, what's the line, and what's your source for the original?

I think if you want to solicit "the truth" about various topics, you should slow down your pace of posting topics to allow discussion on all sides in-depth.

1. Well there are people who, in their mind, accept the "peaceful" Guru Nanak ji, but not the "warlike" Guru Gobind Singh ji. They would mostly describe themselves as Hindus. A lot of them go to gurdwaras in Delhi and Amritsar, and elsewhere. Some don't go to gurdwaras, but simply sometimes turn on the Gurbani channel on TV, and turn on Hindu devotional channels other times. But there are also other Hindus who respect Guru Gobind Singh ji but don't desire to be "full-time" Sikhs. 2. There are an exceedingly small number of "Sikhs" who think that Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't pass on the Guruship so the other 9 Gurus are illegitimate (and by extension so is Guru Granth Sahib ji). These people are out of their minds. 3. There are the Sindhis, who were Hindus from the Sindh region now in Pakistan who were taught love of Guru Nanak ji and Gurbani by Sikh saints and preachers. They install and read Guru Granth Sahib ji but don't take Khanda Amrit or keep hair. Interestingly, LK Advani, former Indian BJP party #2, is a Sindhi. 4. Then there are "Sikh" splinter groups who depart from the Guru line when their own particular guru went off in a huff and a puff from the main Guru line. For example, the Meenas accepted the Guru line up to the 4th Guru Ramdas ji, but accepted their own Pirthi Chand in place of Guru Arjan Dev ji. Similarly, the Ram Raiyas (followers of Ram Rai) accepted the Guru line upto the 7th Guru, but don't accept from the 8th forward. Also, the followers of Sural Mal, who mounted an attack on Guru Teg Bahadur ji (9th Guru). And the Naamdharis don't accept Guru Granth Sahib as Guru. Sikhs believe that the jot (spirit) of all the 10 Gurus (and Guru Granth Sahib ji) is one. About the unity of the Gurus, Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote that the saints know the Gurus are one, and the fools do not: ਅਮਰ ਦਾਸ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ Amar Daasa Raamdaasa Kahaayo ॥ ਸਾਧਨ ਲਖਾ ਮੂੜ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਯੋ ॥੯॥ Saadhan Lakhaa Moorha Nahi Paayo ॥9॥ Amar Das was called Ram Das, only the saints know it and the fools did not.9. ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਸਭਹੂੰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਾ ॥ Bhiaann Bhiaann Sabhahooaan Kari Jaanaa ॥ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ Eeka Roop Kinhooaan Pahichaanaa ॥ The people on the whole considered them as separate ones, but there were few who recognized them as one and the same. ਜਿਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਸਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ Jin Jaanaa Tin Hee Sidhi Paaeee ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਮਝੇ ਸਿਧਿ ਹਾਥਿ ਨ ਆਈ ॥੧੦॥ Binu Samajhe Sidhi Haathi Na Aaeee ॥10॥ Those who recognized them as One, they were successful on the spiritual plane. Without recognition there was no spiritual success.10. ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਅ. ੫ - ੧੦/(੪) - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

I believe that this would be a more fruitful discussion if not steered towards Raag Mala. Most of the Panth accepts Raag Mala, a few don't. What's more interesting for me, and a discussion we should have internally to ward off potential enemies of the Panth, is differences in the 1429 pages before Raag Mala. Are there differences in saroops in the 1429 pages (referring to pre-Raag Mala bani according to printed saroop page numbering). And if there are differences, are they major or minor? So far as a analysis of textual differences of many different saroops conducted by an advisor to Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti found, there are minor vowel differences in a few places. There are no major differences (word differences).

Hmm, Chahal is a Jat surname. Extremely strange to see a Jat as a Buddhist. They are usually Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh. Or maybe it was an Ambedkar follower who worked for a Chahal family and adopted the name when they had to get a passport.

Yeah, according to which calendar, SGPC, Purewal, Bikrami?

Ever heard of making money while on holiday. Plenty of work opportunities to make some extra income. Yes, I have, in fact. But I had totally forgotten about it until you mentioned it, thanks. Unfortunately, the US does not have such a program for British citizens. You have to have a job already lined up. Plus demonstrate your exceptional ability and college education. Plus there are usually more applicants than visa slots, so there's a lottery every year, and the quota is already filled up for this year, next chance Apr 2019. And you have to actually work, it's doubtful your employer will give you a month off after you just started. If your intention is to work a day or two, tour a day or two, and repeat, no employer will sponsor your visa (which is expensive). Canada, on the other hand, has the International Experience program for people 18 to 35. But, as you noted, there's less stuff to see.

You're right. Except that the OP has belatedly stated that it'll be too expensive for him to stay in hotels. So he's down to just staying with his relatives in Toronto.

I noted that you'll not be killed just as you step off the plane. The point is that Canada is safer than the US. Granted, 99.9% of the time, you'll be OK. It's just that people should not be complacent. On the matter, of California, that's where: A young Sikh gas station attendant was gunned down Two elderly Sikh men, 65 and 78, were killed walking 68 yr old Sikh found dead Sikh man beaten up and hair cut Another 68 yr old Sikh beaten up severely, and Gurdwara defaced And an 82 yr old attacked in Fresno in 2013, outside a Gurdwara So please don't make Sikhs think they're absolutely safe in California. They're not.

What, really? Do you have any links or are you just surmising?

Have you never had the pleasure of listening to Asa di Vaar, bro? Read the article referenced by @jkvlondon here.

Probably, though the Gurus didn't object or discriminate against Sehajdhari Sikhs, You mean other than calling hair-cutters dried roots? Would that count as objecting? ਬਚਨ ਹੈ ਸ੍ਰ੍ਰ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕੋਈ ਸਿਖ ਦਾ ਬੇਟਾ ਹੋਏੇ ਔੌਰ ਮੋਨਾ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵੈ Bachan hai srrrī gurū jī kā ki jō kōī sikh dā bēṭā hōē aaur mōnā hōi jāvai This is the directive of Guru, that if the son of a Sikh shaves the head, ਤਸਿ ਕੀ ਜੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸ ਕੀ, ਔੌਰ ਜੋ ਮੋਨਾ ਸਿਖ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵੈ ਤਸਿ ਕੀ ਜੜ੍ਹ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਹਰੀ ॥ Tasi kī jaṛhhh sa kī, aaur jō mōnā sikh hōi jāvai tasi kī jaṛhhh harī ॥ His root will dry up, and if a shaven one becomes Sikh, his root will become green. ਭਾਈ ਨੰਦ ਲਾਲ ਜੀ : ਤਨਖ਼ਾਹ ਨਾਮਾ ਪੰ. ੧੪੯

No it is not. It is extremely constructive. This is the culture that Guru Sahib lived in, and changed some bad parts. Punjabi culture is much more conducive to human happiness than modern mainstream British/American culture. You sound like a Jacobin from the French Revolution. Most of the customs are destructive? Is there a percentagewise list? You've set up a strawman, then are attempting to alight it. Punjabi culture does not advocate drowning yourself in drink, or of drinking in public. If you want to say that's Punjabi culture, then you might as well also saying that drinking is part of the Sikh rehit. Authentic Punjabi culture only allows for a bit of drink behind closed doors when guests visit. Also, so-called "bhangra" is not a part of Punjabi culture. Rather, it's simply a dance to celebrate farmers' harvests. It's for men only. Male-female dancing (whether "bhangra" or otherwise) is not a part of Punjabi culture. Finally, girls dancing (whether giddha or otherwise) with men watching is also not a part of authentic Punjabi culture. (I realize that there was prostitution, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the "mainstream".) So if you were just to follow authentic Punjabi culture, you'd be in a pretty good place (better than mainstream British/American culture or fake Punjabi culture). Of course Sikhism goes a step further, and nasha is outright banned in the rehit.

Possibly. By the way, is the 45-yr old looking man with a long black beard supposed to be Bhai Mardana ji? Thank God Sikka didn't depict Bhai Mardana with his mustache shaved off like Muslims like to do. I don't think I could stomach that. That, btw, is the problem with representations. When you just say "Bhai Mardana" the audience of a kathakaar can imagine him like they want. Once you fix an image as a representation, you necessarily have to come down on once side or another. Sabat surat or jihadi beard? Etc.

I was a bit skeptical when you said a review by a "gursikh", but I read a few articles on the site skeptical of Dhunda, Harjinder Dilgeer, and Nanakshahi calendar, so it seems OK. The article says the movie reduces Guru Sahib to the status of a mere man, and not God himself. Also, Guru Sahib speaks out in Gurbani against Ras Leelas and the like. There was always a tradition of sakhis, but never of actually playing out the role of the Guru like the HIndus do. Also, anything remotely likely to offend Hindus or Muslims was self-censored, like Mecca turning, watering fields from Haridwar, refusing Hindu marriage ceremony. Also, he doesn't show the deer Guru Sahib boiled at Kurkshetra turning into rice pudding. Why not? What is Sikka's agenda?

The speaker states that the movie is essentially a lie because the actor playing Guru Nanak is not in fact Guru Nanak ji. Which is true. Then he also states that the actor speaking the words of Guru Nanak is also unacceptable. I want to quibble with this a bit: When kathakaar says "And then Guru Nanak said such and such", he's also mouthing what he purports to be the actual words of Guru Sahib, which is also a "lie". And Suraj Prakash is also a lie, by the same standard. And when the kathakar mouths the words, he's basically speaking in the voice of Guru ji. So, why is that OK, but it's not OK when accompanied by an animation of Guru Sahib? Also, the vast majority of Sikhs don't have a problem with still-life paintings of Guru ji, so why an objection to animation? I do agree with not having actors playing Guru Sahib. Do note that I'm not saying we should have this movie, or these types of movies. Just asking questions. Also, I don't think that these types of movies should be made by random Sikhs. First, the whole panth should agree that it wants to make such a movie. If there is not agreement, then don't make it. If there is agreement, the SGPC should make the movie, and release it for free after it recoups its costs. The movie should not be a money-making vehicle for private entities.