BhForce

"It" does? Do you have have any quotes from Gurbani regarding free speech? Although free speech is usually useful, I think you are mistaking two different things. First of all, the Ragi has and will continue to have the right to say whatever he wants. But, if the Ragi has that right, the Jathedars have it, too, don't they? If the Ragi refuses to appear again, the Jathedars will proclaim him excommunicated. They'll do that with their mouths (i.e., speech) or a piece of paper, with their freedom of speech. Second, Guru Granth Sahib Ji says to excommunicate disbelievers and slanders of the Guru and not to associate with them. That's what the Gurdwaras of the world are going to do. First, so? Gurbani calls those educated people fools who are egotistic and slanderous. Second, he is not an academic or advanced scholar. People started calling him that when he (a Ragi) was teaching tabla in a girls college. He himself doesn't have any advanced learning. Third, his level of knowledge of Gurbani and Gurmat concepts does not hold up to either academics or taksali scholars. Yes, I have heard his discussions. No, he's not just making that point. If he were to say "Yes, Dasam Granth is Guru's creation, but I want to respectfully say that we shouldn't have parallel parkash of Dasam Granth", that would be one thing. But he's completely rejecting all of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani, including, incredibly, saying there's no proof 10th Guru recited Jaap, Swaye, and Chaupai in the first khande-amrit samagam. There were great Sikhs who when they fell were excommunicated. These include Satta & Balwand and Ram Rai. Second, the Ragi is shown as two-faced person in books on the eighties. During the present time he is with Sarna of Delhi who is with the Congress. Not really relevant to the current controversy. Though, if you mean dirty politics, well, everybody's against that. If you mean religion controlling politics, he did a lot of that while Jathedar. Who says Dasam Granth is or will be the topmost Granth of the Sikhs? It is, always was, and always will be the lower Granth of the Sikhs. The Rehitnamas refer to it as "chota Granth", the smaller Granth. That's why it's parkashed at a lower level at Hazur and Patna Sahib. This is just part of the wild theories of Gurtej Singh IAS who thinks the RSS wants to take Guru Granth Sahib out of Harmandir Sahib and install Dasam Granth instead. Why would the RSS want to install a Granth (Dasam Granth) which puts down Hindu beliefs, avatars, and leaders? Look at the RSS website, it talks in favour of Guru Granth Sahib. The path of truth is the remembrance of God's name. 10th Guru mentions this again and again in Dasam Bani. You're making arguments as if you had the right to question Guru Gobind Singh Ji's work. No one made me or you Guru, we're just Sikhs. A mureed doesn't criticise his Peer. After all these centuries? Just because you and I are living in the 21st century doesn't mean the stuff we see around us just sprang up today. Tomorrow somebody will say "What's the need for Bhai Gurdas Ji after all these centuries" Everybody already acknowledges the Supremacy of Guru Granth Sahib. (See point 6 above.) What exactly would constitute "authentication" for you? How would you authenticate Guru Granth Sahib? Maybe by the signatures of Guru Sahib in manuscripts? Well, we have the same for Dasam Granth. Funny, even though we have signatures for the original recension of Pothi Sahib (Guru Granth Sahib) in the Kartarpuri Bir, we don't have such for the Damdami Bir. In fact we don't even have the Damdami Bir, and yet the whole Panth accepts Damdami Bir as the standard for Guru Granth Sahib! I hope no one stands up tomorrow and starts demanding "authentication" for Guru Granth Sahib. And Guru Granth Sahib has always been and will always be our primary source of inspiration. Dasam Granth is our secondary source of inspiration. Again, Dasam Granth in no way supports Hinduism. Ashutosh is not citing Dasam Granth in favour of his twisted doctrines. He is using Guru Granth Sahib (listen to Youtube "Sikh" speaking in favour of Ashutosh here: ) So, if he uses Gurbani, does that mean we should ban Guru Granth Sahib? Of course not. Balwinder, I hope you read these points and stop slandering your own Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Where is this from? In the story of King Man (16th Avatar), the story starts out like this: ਸਭ ਧਨਵੰਤ ਭਏ ਜਗ ਲੋਗਾ ॥ ਏਕ ਨ ਰਹਾ ਤਿਨੋ ਤਨ ਸੋਗਾ ॥ The people of all the world grew wealthy and there remained no anxiety on their body and mind. Page Line 6 ਭਾਂਤ ਭਾਂਤ ਭੱਛਤ ਪਕਵਾਨਾ ॥ ਉਪਜਤ ਰੋਗ ਦੋਹ ਤਿਨ ਨਾਨਾ ॥੧॥ They began to eat various kinds of foods and consequentsly they suffered form various kinds of ailments.1. Page Line 7 ਰੋਗਾਕੁਲ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਭਏ ਲੋਗਾ ॥ ਉਪਜਾ ਅਧਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਕੋ ਸੋਗਾ ॥ All the people got worried about their ailments and the subjects became extremely distressed. http://searchgurbani.com/main.php?word=&book=dasam_granth&action=pagebypage&page=497

Sunnysinghdoad, what was the goal behind your post? Did someone ask for the meanings of this particular shabad?

Excellent post. We do need to introspect and look into our own collar. Going to a protest for a day seems easy in comparison to the hard work of day-in and day-out preaching and helping people. After mass-outreach samagams, there needs to be some organisational presence to allow people to get help.

I thought the meeting was going to be at Mehta (headquarters of a jatha of Damdami Taksal)

Canadian singh sahbha has always been in favour of this nonsense. As for Dasmesh Darbar, I have a hard time believing how they could be in favour of the Ragi. Isn't Dasmesh Darbar a pro-Sant gurdwara? They always have sants visiting and taksal-type kathakars? And don't they celebrate sant barsis? With that much sant and taksal influence, how could they be in favour of someone who is clearly against sants and taksals? By the way, could you state the source of your information? Somebody told you? Or they stated this in an announcement at the Gurdwara? Or in a flyer? Or a newspaper?

A number of posters in this thread have referenced what Bhai Randhir Singh Ji is said to have said. Are there any references to Ragmala in any of the books noted above?

Just when you thought you had seen it all. Anyway, the name of the Youtube poster "Pritpal Singh Khalsa" just continues the trend of anti-panthic entities taking on totally panthic names. The fact is, more than half of the audience at the Ashutosh samagam were "Sikhs". Like it or not, these "Sikhs" are related to us by blood, common workplace, common neighborhood, etc. We need to be able to quickly, easily, and calmly refute their arguments whenever we happen to encounter them. A start was made at the ongoing topic below. Gurmat Regarding Charlatans Like Ashutosh

The alternative to regional difference is total homogeneity. But why stop there, why not have complete homogeneity and labour market movement in the whole world, included countries poorer than even Bihar?

Are you having a problem with the word ਵੋਦ (veda)? As the word used here has an aunkar ੁ below the ਦ, it's masculine singular by Prof. Sahib Singh. Therefore, it doesn't refer to the Vedas (plural), a group of 4 books which are usually considered the foundation of Hindu philosophy. Rather, it would refer to the literal meaning of ved, being "knowledge". That's the way Prof. Sahib Singh translated Ved (singular) in Japji Sahib. ਅਹਰਣਿ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਦੁ ਹਥੀਆਰੁ ॥ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=8&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=0&p=0&k=1 He translated the line as: ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੀ (ਸਿੱਖ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਦਾ ਵੇਦ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦਾ) ਧਰਮ (ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ) ਪੱਕਾ ਕਰੋ (ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਿਆਂ ਸਾਰੇ) ਪਾਪ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। In no way is it implied that P. Sahib Singh's translation is 100% correct in every instance. Sant Singh Khalsa translates it like this: ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਵੇਦੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਹੁ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਆ ਬਲਿ ਰਾਮ ਜੀਉ ॥ Instead of the hymns of the Vedas to Brahma, embrace the righteous conduct of Dharma, and renounce sinful actions. The Faridkot teeka says: ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋ ਬੇਦ ਰੂਪ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਚਾਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਬੇਦ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਧਰਮ ਕੋ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਕਰੋ ਐਸੇ ਗੁਰੋਂ ਨੇ ਕਹਿਆ ਹੈ ਔ ਪਾਪੋਂ ਕਾ ਤ੍ਯਾਗ ਕਰਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਕੇ॥ The latter meaning seems to contradict other portions of bani which reject the vedas.

Who deleted my post without having the courtesy to at least write why it was deleted? I had suggested to the veer that he look into a temporary job as it's better than none: www.volteurope.com/ I don't own Volt (a huge corporation) and I have no interest in it. It's just the largest of its kind, and I thought it would help.

Basically, these people are the kith of a whole bunch of other Sikhs today who rely on their intellect and have no regard for devotion or actual practice of Sikhi. Since they have no practical basis, including amrit sanchar and nitnem banis, they easily fall prey to things like anti-Dasam bani rhetoric. Because they never do nitnem anyway, it seems like a very small thing for them to delete those banis from the Sikh panth.

fordcapri, would you like to take the effort to make a title a little more descriptive than "re:" ?

When I started hearing about Sarna in the news a few years back, I thought he might be panthic because of: -being against Badal -offering to pay Vienna defense expenses -other panthic stances from time to time Yet he also comes out with stuff like the above: -praising Lala Jagat Narain -keeping a pro-missionary, anti-Dasmesh bani Tarsem Singh as head of parchar -pro-Ragi Darshan Singh, causing unnecessary rife within panth -the "wedding" sometime back when a "man" took hold the "palla" of his wife. the whole purpose was to ridicule the maryada of anand karaj

God grants key to Dasam Duar to Satguru The reason that no one other than Satguru can open the Dasam Duar is that the one whose house it is (God's house) has locked it up and given the key to the Guru (i.e., Guru Nanak Ji): ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਦੀਆ ਤਾਲਾ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਉਪਾਈ ॥ And the one whose home it is, has locked it up, and given the key to the Guru. ਅਨਿਕ ਉਪਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੩॥ You may make all sorts of efforts, but it cannot be obtained, without the Sanctuary of the True Guru. ||3|| The Dasam Duar is not some ordinary door that you can burgle your way into. You can't use a lockpick to gain access. You can go to Ashutosh, Radha Swami guru in Beas, Namdhari guru, Brahmdev, Asa Ram, Parmanand, to tiraths and mats and monasteries, whoever and whatever, but you will NOT be able to get into the Dasam Duar. That's the assertion of Gurbani. Gurmantar-less are accursed Only by receiving the Gurmantar from Guru Granth Sahib via Panj Piare and by reciting this mantra can one attain the object of human life. Those without this mantra are called accursed in Gurbani. ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥ That mortal who lacks the Guru's Mantra - cursed and contaminated is his life. ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥ That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake. ||33|| p1355 Ashutosh and his kindred are basically just jackals, no matter how many rich chelas they may happen to have. http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=204&L=18 Note: there are 9 physical gates to the body that visible: 2 ears, 2 eyes, mouth, 2 nostrils, waste outlets. The tenth is the Dasam Duar, which, when opened, grants access to Darshan (vision) of God.

You don't HAVE to do anything. But some Singhs do. The idea is the same as when you're doing bani when preparing langar or parshad. The effect of bani on the water. Don't get caught up in special rules for banis outside Nitnem. Yes, those are to be done in a specific order, and all 5. For others, just do as much as you can, when you can.

Wake up, anybody on this board who was gullible and believed the "arguments" being presented against Guru Dasmesh's bani. It was all just a trick to separate you from Amrit Sanchar, Rehit, Khalsa Panth. Snap out of it!

Brothers, please let's not get into the Rag Mala issue per se. Just keep the thread about kam1825's book.

babbar, why don't you share some of your experiences with bhayas and Hindus which led you to the conclusions you've come to?

Don't get mad, get even. Learn Gurbani and GurHistory. Be able to calmly make your arugments with many points per arguments. Let the other fellow get flustered and mad that he can't answer your arguments. That's the best revenge.

Very inspiring speech. Fight the inner demons and the outer demons, not each other. Who is Kamaljit Singh Shaheedsar, by the way?

What happened to my post? Anyway: I think the missionaries need to get their stories straight. Two days ago we were being told that it was the missionaries who spearheaded the whole Ludhiana protest, and the Sant Samaj were merely interlopers. Now the Ragi is saying that everybody in the protest was an RSS agent! I think he has truly slipped into senility as the jamdoots come closer.

New Delhi, 8 Dec. (by Jagtar Singh) Former chief volunteer at the Akal Takhat, Prof. Darshan Singh Khalsa, in a special chat with the Spokesman, said what a two-faced case of one thing in your mind, and something else on your face. At one time, in Basakhi 1978, permission had been given to the doctrine-destroying Narakdharis to drink the Khalsa's blood by holding a celebration in the center of Sikhi, Amritsar, on the birthday of the Khalsa. He said that today, again, the government has repeated the history of that time. Charlatans and anti-social mendicants like Ashutosh have been given the right to make social character killing centers in the land of Punjab and challenge the honour of Sikhi for many years where he keeps hundreds of misled young girls. He said that this was found out some years ago when one Bibi Surjit Kaur came crying to me in the matter of her lost amritdhari daughter Prabhjot Kaur and told me how her young daughter was misled by being given drugged parshad. She changed her name from Prabhjot Kaur to Naveen Bharti and turned away from us and is living with Ashutosh. That pained mother, crying, put a letter from her misled daughter in front of me, reading which my hair stood up. Prof. Darshan Singh Khalsa said that that girl wrote to her parents that 300 girls like me are living here. Their parents don't bother them so much as they do. I'm a major now, I want live like I desire, stop following me. One mother was telling me the tale of being a beggar from the Akal Takhat to the President, and becoming hopeless. Prof. Darshan Singh said the Singhs who had created history by releasing other people's daughters from the hands of tyrants and sent them to their homes, how can the honourable Sikh nation tolerate that today somebody dishonour their daughters. He said 3-4 years ago Joginder Singh Vedanti had held a meeting in Amritsar due to pressure from folks like us, and I was invited too. In the meeting, I had brought the entire case, that this bad situation be stopped, but on each panthic matter, the policy of biding time by making committees was adopted. If it had been stopped then, we wouldn't have to bear such unbearable tragedies as today's. But the black politics of the time do not take pity of the Sikh form or doctrine. They have done deals on everything with the RSS, and according to that deal Ashutosh was given permission to do a smagam in the center of Punjab and to please the RSS, a bowl of the Sikhs' blood was presented. Prof. Darshan Singh said, "Recognise one more conspiracy, of cleaning mud with mud: One one hand the anti-Guru Guru-usurper Ashutosh Sadh was given permission for a samagam, and on the other hand, puppets of political power and anti-Guru Guru-usurpers of the Sadhus' gang was made to stand up to stop it so that in the battle whether one or the other would glisten, it would be one to destroy the Sikh doctrines. It is a two-faced move from which the Panth has to beware and has to face this terror."

Yes, it's true S Bhindrawale and many of the SInghs used to help many ordinary Punjabis who happened to be born in Hindu families. At the same time, there are some hard-core haters out there too. Just keep both things in mind, and we'll be OK.

Yes, you should. Respecting your parents is a big deal in Sikhi. So is forgiveness. If your uncle hasn't repeated his wrongdoings in 15 years, it's wrong to hold it against him. You don't have to give a reply to every single thing that people say. But you can definitely argue things with your friends of your own age.