jagjit_waheguru

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I have to take issue with veer jaskeerath Singh or taksali singhs post. Veer ji, you are trying to make an assumption that Taksal maryada is actually Guru jis, or a God given marydada. Clearly in this case of bibian doing seva it is not. The maryada of Taksal has many positive things in it, but it is wrong to stop bibian from doing seva. Gurbani is very clear on this matter. Every human has a soul and a body. The soul is important, and the body is just the vessel. The sex of the soul is just the vessel, i.e. male and female. Gurbani clearly states the soul of evry humna is female, and God is the male. Therefore gender discrimination has no place in sikhi. The Amrit sanchaar is by no means any re-inactment, and it is silly to say it is. Otherwise who does the seva that Mata Sahib Kaur did? The Amrit sanchaar is a spiritual awakening event in which the 5 most spiritual beings are choosen, whether male or female. Veer Naranjana is also correct in stating Gurmat does not believe in the concept of "patti Parmeshwar". This is a hindu concept, where the husband is seen as God. Gurmat believes in the shabad of lavaan which states two bodies and one soul. below is a article I wrote recently covering what is happening in India. However it is slightly of the subject, but is important. POSITIVE DICRIMINATION OF WOMEN NOT THE WAY FORWARD Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, currently the Guru Khalsa Panth is entering a discussion on whether Sikh women can do Seva in many key areas of Sikhism. Personally I have always been of the opinion that Sikhism has nothing against Sikh Amritdhari bibian doing Seva in Panj Pyares, keertan in Darbar Sahib, or any other seva in Sikhism. Many times in debates, I have argued against those who wish to suppress the talent of Sikh bibian, and just see them as mothers, cooks, and people who should be seen and not heard. We have so many Great examples of Gurmat in the form of Sikh bibian in our history, from Bebe Nanaki ji, Mata Khivi ji, Bibi Bhani ji, Mata Bhag Kaur ji to Mata Sahib Kaur ji. In fact, the first ever Amritdhari Sikh, who took Amrit via Charan Pahul was Bebe Nanaki ji, and the first leader of the Sikh Nation after our beloved Guru Sahibaan was also a bibi in the form of Mata Sahib Kaur ji. Gurmat philosophy is very clear that we are all females. Gurbani talks to our souls, not the vessels that are our bodies. Gurbani calls us females and Akaal Purkh is the soul bride (or male). So if Gurbani is so clear on this, why so many Sikhs are so confused about it, is really quite confusing!! I personally never knew why people were so adamant about holding back the potential of 50% of the Sikh Nation. When Bibi Mejinderpal Kaur launched the campaign which brought to notice the discrimination against Sikh women doing seva in Darbar Sahib, even I was a bit shocked how vehemently some sections of the Panth appose women. I believe the SGPC passed a resolution decades ago, allowing bibian to do Seva in every aspect of Sikhism. When I first met Bibi Amarjit Kaur (wife of Bhai Fauja Singh ji), she mentioned an incident to me. During the early nineties I believe, when Proffesor Manjit Singh was Jathedar of the Akal Thakht Sahib. He allowed Sikh bibian to do sewa of washing Siri Darbar Sahib, which is done every night with milk. It caused an uproar among some sections. Such was the uproar that no bibian would come forward and do seva. So Bibi Amarjit Kaur and Bibi Shanti Kaur from 3HO did the Seva. Bibi ji told me in the following days, it was other Sikh women who were protesting against her doing that Seva, even more vehemently than males were. I have never been much of a Bibi Jagir Kaur fan, mainly for her close association with Badal, who`s personal ambitions have damaged generations of Sikhs and their standing. However Bibi Jagir Kaur has taken a bold step to introduce Sikh bibian to do keertan at Siri Darbar Sahib. Further we also hear, she has stated that bibian should be actively doing Seva in the Panj Pyares. Whether this is true or not only time will tell, I have realised Punjabi Press are more rumour driven than fact driven. Naturally there is opposition, and most positive steps in Sikhi have always had. But now is also a time for reflection, because without it more problems can be created than are solved. Reflection needs to be on two matters and I will discuss both in detail. Firstly, what level of Rehit should bibian doing seva have? Secondly is positive discrimination valid in Sikhi? Bibian doing keertan in Siri Darbaar Sahib is a most welcome move. However the level of knowledge to do keertan in Darbaar Sahib needs to be increased. It has been announced that these Bibian would be trained. But those who already do keertan may also need to look at more training. More knowledge of Raags, less mistakes in Shabads, plus more regular use of string instruments make be the direction we should pursue. Most Sikhs would agree that we all should always strive to be better at any Seva we do, so a realisation that the male sevadaars are not perfect may be important, when they start judging and criticising women sevadaars. I personally think before bibian keertanis start doing Seva, the Panth needs to have an honest debate on Keski. Some accept Keski as a kakkaar. Others accept Kesh. This is a ongoing discussion on many discussion boards. However I have personally found that those who are adamant with Kesh, still wish young bibian to wear Dastaars, and do wish to promote Dastaars for bibian. All main jathebandies, such as AKJ, Taksal, Nihangs, are now in their youth actively promoting dastaars for bibian. In fact, nowadays, it is even rare for the need to promote it as most young Sikh women are proud to be Sikhs, and wish to make a statement with a Dastaar. According to the Sikh Rehit Maryada, a bibi is Amritdhari whether she wears a Dastaar or not. When we look in practice many elderly sikh bibian wear earrings, necklaces, make up, some even die hair, and are still considered Amritdhari as long as they have a chunni and a kirpan. What is level of Rehit required for bibian to do seva of Keertan in Siri Darbaar sahib? We have not been informed. I believe that all groups that wish to see all Gursikhs promoting the Roop of our Guru Sahibaan, as they wished when Sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji stated ”Khalsa Mera Roop Hai Khass”. They now need to start lobbying the SGPC and the Thakhts to state wearing a Dastaar should a minimum level of Rehit to do keertan Seva in Siri Darbaar Sahib. The second issue is based around bibian doing seva in the Panj Pyares. The process of choosing the Panj Pyares is based on selection based on Jeevan and Rehit. It is a process called “Shood Shudaaie” and is very misunderstood, even by mainstream jathebandies, who sometimes pick Singhs because of their build or prominence rather than Jeevan and Rehit. The Panj Payes should always been the five most Jeevan wale Gursikhs in that sangat, regardless of any discrimination such as gender discrimination. I was quite shocked to hear the call in Punjab to have Amrit sanchaars in villages and have two of the Panj Pyares as women. This is completely absurd, and a form of positive discrimination. The selection of the Panj Payes should never be made on basis of making point on any issue. The Panj Pyares have a very Scared and important seva, and should always only be blessed to the most Jeevan wale Gursikhs, whether they are all males, some female, or even all female. It should never be categorised like some ritual which needs to be enacted. They have a huge Spiritual role in creating the next generation of Gursikhs, and their spirituality should never be compromised by politics. The Seva should always be given only to the five most worthy Souls in terms of their Jeevan and devotion to Guru. Positive discrimination policies often do more damage than good, as they often lead to more resentment. Nobody needs to prove a point, what we need is Sikhi to be followed in a logical manner, free from discrimination, whether positive or negative. As Gurmat philosophy perfects speaks to our Souls calling us all female, and calling Akaal Purkh the Soul bride or male. Similarly we should only recognise the Soul or Jeevan, and Seva should only be blessed to the most worthy Souls. Waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

Author: Zorawar Singh Date: 09-21-05 04:07 THE JEEVANI OF BHAI GURDEV SINGH KOANKE JATHEDAR SIRI AKAL THAKHT SAHIB (Translated from Jujarhoo Yoodhea By Maninder Singh Baja) In the Jagroun District of Punjab is a very blessed village called Koanke. The Master of Miri Piri, Sahib Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji blessed this village stating the diamonds would be born from this village. Guru Ji stated this when he rested at the village on his journey to the Sind region. When he stayed at Koanke village, one of its resident Gursikhs, Bhai Hira ji did keertan seva. Guru ji was very moved by the keertan and at this point stated in a “Bachan” that many more diamonds would be born here. So it happened, aswell as Bhai Hira Ji, Sardar Sham Singh Attari, the Great Mata Kishen kaur Koanke, Bhai Gurdev Singh Koanke, and many countless young Gursikhs who have given all to the Sikh struggle, all were born in the village Koanke. The list of names that stood by the mission and ideologue of Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale from this village is long, but one name stands out. That name is Jathedar Gurdev Singh ji. Bhai Gurdev Singh was born in 1949 in house of Bhai Gurdial Singh and Mata Chand Kaur ji. Bhai sahib`s grandfather was Jathedar Totha Singh, who was a companion of Baba Nand Singh ji of Nanaksar. Hence Gursikhi was a part of the family tradition. At a young age, Bhai Sahib was blessed with Amrit at the Siri Akal Thakht sahib. Bhai Sahib`s worldly education was only up to level 6. However he continued to study in his religious study at the Damdami Taksal. He was tutored by Baba Vir Singh Madoke and Giani Inder Singh Badni wale, both of whom were companions of Baba Gurbachan Singh Khalsa. From here Bhai Sahib began to do seva of katha of Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth. Due to the fact that Bhai Sahib inherited considerable land, his family needs were always satisfied, and therefore Bhai sahib always did katha in a Niskam nature. In 1970, Bhai Sahib`s Anand Karaj to Bibi Gurmel kaur happened. Before the Anand Karaj, Bibi ji took Amrit and adorned a Keski. Bhai Sahib was a very strict Gursikh and followed the practice of Gurmat Bibek. This meant that would only eat food prepared by Amritdhari hands. Bhai Sahib was also strict in his Amrit vela, rising everyday at 2am. From 2am to 8am, Bhai Sahib would do his nitnem, and would never speak to anyone during this period. Bhai Sahib was very influenced by Baba Jarnial Singh Bindranwale. Throughout the Dharam Yudh Movement, Bhai Sahib with his whole family would accept imprisonment. Operation Bluestar in 1984, had a deep impact on Bhai sahib. From this period, Bhai Sahib in his katha openly started condemning Brahmin Authorities, and their devious practices. Due to the sincere nature of Bhai Sahibs character, the “parchaar” that Bhai Sahib did had a lot of influence on the sangat. Bhai Sahib was against all types of Gurudooms, sant-dooms, and as a result of his parchaar in the Jagroun area, many deras, businesses of Brahmin-vaad, blind worship and ritualism were removed from every village and town. Due to Bhai sahib parchaar, the drug-ridden area of Jagroun, witnessed many Amrit Sanchaars, and kesri dastaars and black gatras could be seen everywhere. Once again the Malwa region strangled by drugs, witnessed a Khalsa revolution. At weddings, where previously dirty songs were heard, now Gurbani keertan was heard. In buses, the Bollywood songs were replaced Dhadi Vaars and religious songs. Much of this social change was credited to Bhai Gurdev Singh ji. As a result of this, in January 1986, Bhai sahib was chosen to the highest Seva in the Khalsa Panth, the Seva of Jathedar of Siri Akal Thakht Sahib ji. To be continued...........

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I think the t-shirts are excellent, and quite humourous. Not sure what the PC brigde are upset about. If it said "fully loaded and ready to blow" then you may have a point, but it does not. All communities have moved on, so why are Sikhs feeling so guilty when they look at self-preservation measures, in which ever form. During the 60`s, there was the Asian Underground Movement, against the BNP. Then Sikh, Hindus and Muslims were together. But since the 80`s and especially after the Salman Rushdie affair, Muslims have always only looked after themselves. They in the media never mentioned Sikh or Hindus, but always go on about how Islam is about peace. In Uk they even have their Muslim Parliament. So why are Sikh not prepared to develop their own indepandant vioce and feel they need others to speak for them. Essentially Sikhs should be speaking for themselves. This T-shirt is only something small, but surely the debate it has caused shows we are overly conscious of upsetting others that is ridculous. Exactly how many muslims have complained about the T-shirt? Speak to Sikhs in Slough and derby, and they will tell how they are treated day to day in schools by muslims youth. These are not isloated incidents but a larger bullying epidemic. Muslims know of this probelm, but in 10 years, I have yet to meet a muslim who accepts it, and will not go on about protecting these muslim bullies, or about how they have less oppotunities, rather than challenge their behaviour. Muslims have created their own image, and we as Sikhs are victims by association, and in no way responsible for that. So if we are proactive against breaking down barriers, then it is good not bad. Muslims before they talk about rights and freedoms need to analyse how many freedoms and rights they give to others, and how they percieve others and treat others. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh P.s. Why are the Uk sikhs T-shirt made in USA? Surely it should be made in UK? or China like everything else...

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I am not sure why you seem to be having a thread just talking to yourself veer ji? If there is something wrong, please state so. I am the author of the original post. It was in response to a question on akj egroup about a situation at a prominent Gurdwara in South where the committee is intentionally trying to close the Youth Simran sessions. The youth asked if the arguments put forward by the committee are valid. I gave my response in reference to the questions about Youth simran. If I have written anything wrong, please feel free to say. Knowledge should be shared. Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I have just finished listening to the katha of Baba Ranjit Singh ji. He presents a very good viewpoint, and I found alot of what he said as very agreeable. Someone such as myself who will fell blessed to inspire one person in my life, or just inspire myself cannot compare to any of the Gursikhs mentioned. It is first time I have heard what we term as kaatche bani, as not kaatche bani, but as dharnaas equivalent to Dhadhi vaars. This is fine. However after listening to the katha, my computer went straight on the playlist automatically programmed in my computer. Straight away the shabad by Bhai Rajinder Singh Singapore in 1980, "Gursikh har bole Mere Bhai". It was like an arrow to the heart. Then shabads came to minds, "Ko Kar Gal Sunavve har Nam ki, Jo lagge Gursikha Man meeta", etc, etc. parchaar will just bani, is more than inspirational, it is inspiration with Naam, and then rass, and so much more. Essentially, lets accept dhaarnaas as just an alternative to dhadhi vaars, and not kaatche bani. Then one asks is there such a thing as kaatche bani. Only then as Baba Ranjit Singh ji stated the dhaarnaas that are false are kaatche, and those that are true are Shaatche. But the bhagat bani that was rejected by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan Dev ji, could have been accepted as saatchi dhaarnaas, because they were composed by the most accomplished souls, and devoted to God. But we have to realise they were still rejected by Guru Ji. That was something very significant. Rather than criticize anyone, I would like to see all of these Gursikh Sants to do exactly the same parchaar but with shabads of Gurbani only. What we have to understand is Bani is so multi-dimentional. Dhaarnaas will inspire and spread the message of sikhi, but Gurbani will do that but also at the same deeply effect everyone on a spiritual level far deeper than can be imagined. The Raass of Bani is so strong, but our souls so deeply immersed in Vikaars cannot always appreciate it. When indivduals come into sangat, they are inspired, by the actual spiritual food and nourishment is only when the read bani, sing bani, and do abyass of bani. I do hope Baba Ranjit Singh inspires many, and them many are directed by Guru Ji Bhanna towards Bani, in its purest context. But even more as sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji states, "Aap naam japo, avraa naam japavoh," so according to this the paarchaar of abyass in bani is the strongest parchaar, and if done in these huge sangats it will act as a subconcious tidal wave of spiritual contentment to all those who attend. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I do not wish to get into a sant thing. I think anyone inspiring people to Gurmat is good. I have faith that most sikhs as per their karams will find Gurbani, and live by it. In your post however the case for dharnaas or kachhe bani, dependant upon view, is based upon some assumptions. We should be careful, as bani does not contradict itself. However as humans when we use Gurbani to back our point of view, it can look as though it does contradict. If one was to go through your post. (please think about without prejudice and emotion) Both sides should look at the arguments as presented in the thread rather than attch emtions to it, because it may indirectly reflect upon any individual. 1. Bhai Gurdas ji vaars represent the important of sangat, Guru Ji sevaks and how he protects them. There are many stories in Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas ji vaars, some from Hindu mythology, others just folklore stories. They are used as analogies. The story does not push the case for dharnaas or kaatche bani. We have no idea what the sangat was singing. They could be just japping "raam raam", or anything. All we know is that they are praising God, which is good. 2. You have mentioned Bhagat bani, which is extensively used in the Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It is basically Gurbani. However we also realise that from these very bhagats, they had alot more bani, which was rejected by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan dev ji, as not worthy of the Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Some bhagats only had one or a few compositions allowed. So what is the rest, Kaatchi bani, or not? Should we now sing them compositions? 3. Gurbani often mentions in the company of Saints. This does necessarily mean Gursikhs in white clothes, unmarried, who travel doing parchaar. Essentially it means any Gursikh of a saintly nature inspired by Gurbani. Essentially it the first aim of every sikh to become a Sant, and then a Siphahi. Sain Nahi got inspired by seeing Gursikhs doing keertan rainsbhais, devoted in Abyass. 4. The Panthik ardas was written and approved by the Sarbat khalsa. The last time it was amended was in 1947 after partition, when the part about darshan of Siri Nankana Sahib was added. It is based on history, philosophy and idealogue. 5. Sahib Siri Guru Hargobind sahib ji was the Guru who established Dhadi vaars as part of mainstream. They have a distinct seva of enlightening the sangat with history, and education. The role very separate from the spiritual goal of Gurbani. Both are educational, but Dhadis by nature are ther to put josh into sangat. In conclusion, you have made an interesting argument for dharnaas. Are they kaatchi bani or not? To be honest a person can argue both ways. However personally bearing in mind Anand sahib`s very direct warning on kaatchi bani, should we not be careful. Gursikhs do alot of parchaar. I personally think dhaarnas are very effective on rural punjab population. You have 3 types of kathakaars. Firstly very technical ones like Sant Singh Maskin. Then spiritual gurbani ones like Bhai Jasvir Singh khanne wale. Then we have dhaarnas wale sants. Everyone has there preferred choice. However as youth rather than accepting what we see, should we not be going forward. I see no reason why any of these dhaarnaa wale sants cannot put some more effort in using purely Gurbani like Bhai jasvir Singh Khannewale. I do believe it may even have more impact. Why just use bits of gurbani, when we can use whole shabads. According to Panthik rehit maryada the bani of Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib ji, Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdas ji varran, and Bhai Nand lal jis rehit name, are considered as bani for keertan. There is so much knowledge there, more than enough to emphasise any point in katha. This is not to say any of them sants in history were bad, it is just to say, maybe the newer generation should look at using bani only to emphasise a point. As the long term objective is to jion a person with God, then the boat acroos the rough waters is bani, so surely we should joining them to Gurbani, rather than poems.. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, just to correct it is Bhai hakikat singh not Bhai hakikat rai. The second name is the name made famous by Arya samaj and part of the Hinduisation of Sikh History. This has be done to alot of characters in Sikh history. waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh

Admin Note : Thank you virji 4 good reply but we do not allow any discussion between SS and w!n anymore.

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, I think this person should also write about the tragedy behind Operation Blue Star and delhi roits and 20 years in genocide in Punjab. Coupled with his book on Air India. it will then put into perspective the whole tragedy of them 20 years. Otherwise it does seem he is only using the Air India tragedy to push his own agenda anti-khalistani agenda. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, the problem is not the mala. I personally use a mala. It is very good for focussing your mind. The original poster asked about the use of 108. 108 used by sants as part of their names shows lack of awareness about what it is. As explained this has little to do with sikhi. A mala should be used in a niskam manner, not to count, as that leads to subconcious ego, which defeats the purpose. Essentially there is nothing wrong with using a mala to focus your mind. waheguru ji ke khalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, 108 is a number of exams or scriptures that a student has to do to be a respected Brahmin in Hinduism. It is part of their specific eduaction system. Many hindu parcharaks then used 108 behind their names to signify they have obtained that level. Similar to way we use, BSC, MA or PHD. It has nothing to do with sikhism. However as sants multiply, and real sants are being replaced by those who understand the commercial benefits of the use of the word sant. Some of them started attaching it to the back of their names. Then made stories to get people to follow, which the followers narrated as hype. Sikhism as a base is Gurbani. It states a good day is a day when we read remember God, and a bad day is when we do not. Bhagat Bani extensively mentions naam is a very deep aspects which signifies the knowledge of the Bhagats about it. Bani is the river which leads us to Naam which is the ocean. I do not wish to criticize anyone doing 108 japjis sahib in a day. Many Gursikhs do numerous mool mantars as abyass. However I do not see why a person instead of doing that, does nitnem, asa di //, sukhmani, or sehaj path. Hence read bani as broad a range and in the manner it is written. This is essential, because different bani teachs you about differents aspects of your spiritual path. The bani of Asa di vaar is very different to the bani of Sukhmani sahib, and different to Sahib Siri Guru Tegh Bahadhur Jis bani. Hence we should be be aware of the simplistic profoundness of Gurmat, and not let ourselves be subconciously misled into accepting Brahmanistic mannerisms. waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, this is my personal opinion. Nobody actually does seva, Seva is taken from you by Guru Maharaj form time to time, as he sees fit. We kid ourselves if we think we do everything, or everything is in our control. But often we think this, and definately our Gurdwara pardans, and leaders think this. Everyone today looks up to leaders. Baba Jarnial singh has been mentioned. Others may say Bhai sahib Randhir Singh, Sant Attar Singh Mastuane, Bhagat Puran Singh, Baba kharak singh. Each led Sikhs in Chardi kala, and had amazing jeevans. If today we had any of them, the Panth would be a far better place. Lets look at them more closely. Baba Jarnail Singh was a completely unknown Singh. When the Jathedari was given to him, most of Taksal was shocked. Many thought Bhai Amrik Singh, son of Baba Kartar Singh would get it. Baba Jarnail was just thought of as a quiet, illiterate Singh who works in the fields. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh was just a law student studing for his exams. Bhagat Puran singh just looked after poor people, and wrote articles. Equally you can look at the others aswell. The point is, each one was a Great Sikh, but very different, and all had humble beginnings. What was their common denominator? It was seva and bhagti. That is would moulded their minds, and made them Great. So rather than emulating them, by trying to copying their mannerisms, or dress, or attitude, etc. lets just learn from all that we need to do as much bhagti as possible and do ardas, that one day Guru Maharaj makes us worthy of Panth di seva aswell. Do not search for them, or hope they will return. Instead do bhagti as they did. Do Bhagti as Dhru Prahlad did, and maybe one day some of us will even surpass them. Bhai Rama singh stated, Seva and Simran are like wings of a bird, without either it will go nowhere. But together it will soar. I do believe our generation will see Great Bhagats, Saint-Soldiers. Ones who will not only shake the Panth, but the whole world. It is just a matter of doing abyass of Bani. waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, for anyone who has not seen the orignal thread on tapoban this is the link. It has some really amazing stories in it. http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1...141#reply_33667 Mine is not so amazing. It just sorted happened, still sometimes wonder if I am in Sikhi as yet..... waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh I was born in UK, and have one elder brother. He always had kesh, and i was a mona. My father in 1987 kept his kesh, and a year later both my mother, who know started wearing a keski, and father both took amrit. Both have always kept good amrit velas, and it changed the atmosphere in the home. They were always ideal role models for us. When I was 11, I wanted to keep my kesh, but with no sangat of my age, I found it difficult. As I grew up, all my friends were into drinking, later smoking and spliff. None of this attracted me, and I only drank infrequently, and only small amounts. We used to go to gigs alot, but always there were fights, between us and other groups of punjabis, or muslims. I was about 16 then. The last straw for me was when at one gig. I saw a lad, who I did not know, got jumped and beaten severely. All of his mates ran away. I felt sorry for him, so I hauled off the boys who were beating him up. His head was cut, and the bouncers put him out. He was lying there on the floor. I said to him I will take him to hospital, but he would not have it. So I took him home. All my mates said leave him, he is not our concern. But I took him by myself. After dropping him off, I went home on the tube. I looked down at my clothes, they were covered in his blood. I just thought, what is this rubbish, and what am I doing in these crowds. I never went to a gig again. A few months later, my father took me to my first youth programme in watford hall. Shivcharan Singh was doing a talk, which was good. Then a young lad came up to me and gave me a leaflet for Khalsa camp 1992. He was a mona, just like me, and he said come, it will be a laugh. So I signed up. The khalsa camp was excellent, it was the first time I had met young sikhs. I met people from my town like Onkar and Hardip there for the first time. During the camp, on one day, during the lectures, a message came thorough. Apparently a really famous Singh in India had just become Shaheed. The Singh doing the lecture, who was in full bana, almost came to tears. The whole room went quiet. I did not have a clue what was going on. (I later found out the Singh who was shaheed was jathedar Sukhdev Singh Babbar). Then one singh said there will a rainsbhai tonight in memory. I did not know what a rainsbhai was, but the guy next to me told me it was his frst aswell, and they are meant to be really good. The rainsbhai was fanatastic, we got there at 9, and the next thing I knew it was 6 in the morning. It was my first experince of keertan, and I got addicted. For the first time, I had felt such inner glow. After the camp, I went back to my friends. I never thought about keeping kesh, it just automatically happened. I just never shaved again. All my friends tried to stop me from keeping kesh. They would spend hours talking to me, telling me, I had everything they wanted. I had the clothes, the car, and all the girls they wanted were friendly with me. But I said, it always never meant anything to me. The girls would say to me, its just a phrase, we will get you back. None of them understood. That lifestyle is not what makes me happy inside. At weekends instead of going out with them, I was now going to keertan programmes wherever I could. After I had not been out with them a few weeks, they all started on me. Plus I was now wearing a small dastaar. They said I have to go out with them that weekend. After much pressure, I agreed. We went out, a large number of us. Tradition was after a night out, everyone went to this shop where they did chicken kebabs. We had done this for years. Sitting there surrounded by all my friends, watching them each chicken, for the first time, I felt a deep pain inside. The kind of pain, when you know something is wrong, or someone in front of you is swearing or doing ninda. "So I said to all of them, I think I will leave. I do not wish to spoil your pleasure, but I cannot sit and watch you eat meat. It hurts me. " That was the last time, I ever went out with them. All of us are close even till today. We all went to the same uni, They wanted me to stay with them in their house. But I never wanted to impose my rules on them, so I commuted instead. We all had an understanding. They knew, whenever I was around, they could not smoke, drink, eat meat, swear, talk about girls or boys in wrong way, or do ninda.They knew I never said anything, I would just walk away, but they did it just to make stick around. I never left my friends, I just changed the way we interacted with each other. They knew never to ask me to go anywhere against Gursikhi. I now came across Bhai sahib Randhir Singh jis autobiography. I always used to read, it was a passion of mine. I read alot of books on sikhi. But this was revelation for me. I had never realised that this level of thinking, and calibre of Gursikh ever existed. It pushed my own perception of sikhi higher ten fold. Bhai sahib jeevan brought home to me how imortant a jeevan actually is, and not just ritualistically going to gurdwaras. Never had my mind contemplated going into sikhi so deeply before. I spent most of my time in sangat, especially jatha. In Uk, we have a youth scene, but I always found them hard to understand. I saw the same thing in them that I saw in elders generally. They all talked about not doing it, politics, backstabbing, powertrips, but did it anyway. Plus I was not into sikhi for that, just into it for keertan, my mun (mind), sangat, and Panth. I saw many youth coming into sikhi going from pillar to post. One day in jatha, the next with a sant, the next with taksal, the next with feds, etc. I thought this was like in gurbani, what we say "patak the". Searching and going everywhere, yet obsessed by staying neutral. They all say we do not get into politics, we are neutral. I personally thought these neutral pople are more into politics that anyone else, otherwise how do they know what is neutral and what is not. I personally felt very lucky, that Maharaj gave me a path where I avoided all politics, double-mindedness, controversies, groups, etc. Guru Maharaj himself took me from day one to the source of Gurmat, Shabad guru, keertan and path. Never have I ever felt the need for anything else. I am truely content with bani. No sants, youth leaders, keertanis, jathedars, have ever attracted me, neither have I ever ran after anyone. Bani is my Guru, and all I ever needed. One day, a friend said to me, there is a amrit Sanchaar in Slough. Are you not going to take amrit. I had never even considered it, but after much thought, and reading Amrit ki Hai, by Bhai sahib, I thought now is the time. So I got prepared. On my interview first, the Panj asked me alot of questions to see if I was ready. Alot of youth at uni age were doing wrong things, and they wanted to be sure that i was strong in Gurmat. The Panj set me a condition, the once I got Naam, I would got to a Gursikhs house who lived near me everday for 3 months and do Amrit vela with him. I agreed. Outside the Amrit Sanchaar, Bhai Rama Singh ji came and sat with me. he smiled and said he was happy I was taking amrit. He was getting pesh, because he had just had his heart transplant. He spent alot of talking to me about Amrit, priceless thougths, and then said, the more bhagtee we do now, the more impact amrit will have on us. We sat there doing moolmantar. After many hours we were called in for amrit. Bhai sahib said to me, when the Panj Pyare prepared amrit, concentrate on the bowl, while listening to the bani. Do not move your eyes from it. So I did. It was very hypnotic. Amrit was a very powerful emotion for me. Things happen that I cannot describe, twice I fell unconscious. Such was the strong energy inside, but the complete peace in my mind. I felt sad, when I hear of youth, who tell me they went and took amrit from sants, and felt nothing. They did not know Gurmantar, and did not value Amrit. I felt so fortunate that maharaj gave me everything, I never had to search for it. The condition of the Panj was excellent. For 3 months or more, I did amrit vela with this Gursikh. He took me to spirtual highs I can never describe. Some days I felt lazy,and he would phone, encouraging me to come as soon as possible. It was only then after this period of abyass after amrit, that I realised how amazing Naam and how powerful it is. The youth around me used to tell me amazing stories about sikhs they had met. I had never met anyone. So one night I did ardas, Maharaj let me have darshan of all your choosen sikhs. Not to follow, because bani was everything, just out of interest. I had already met Bhai Rama Singh, a most amazing soul. Within weeks, i met bhai Jeevan Singh, Giani Nahar Singh, Bhai Raghbir Singh. I went to Canada, and met so many amazing souls, and also to India, in particular Delhi Smagam. The magnetism of naam in India is just profound. There are so many special jeevans in the Panth, it is just a shame, we spend most of lives with our eyes closed, and not realise their existence. For many years, everything was perfect. I was surrounded by sangat, keertan, and Naam. Eventhougth we were always involved in panth, politics never affected me, because of this shield of naam. Praise was everywhere, and I felt invincible. Not out of haumai or pride, just because I always felt Guru jis hand on my head. Then suddenly, something happened which changed everything. I did not feel I had done anything wrong, just the circumstances and environment Guru i put me in, had changed. At first I felt deep depression, because I had never been away from sangat. But then I realised, this was just another test, a very hard one, something to overcome. Guru maharaj had showed me sikhi in a certain way, now i was been shown it in another. I realised how unimportant I am, and never to expect anything from anyone. Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji bani said so much to me about what I was gong thougth. Bani was the only thing I had ever felt faith in, and it was always there for me. Maharaj walked me through that time. I learned more about Gurmat, my inner self, my failings through this than anything else. Now in hindsight, I am glad I went througth that. It made my faith so much stronger. It took me nearer to what I wish to achieve and become. Maharaj is so amazing, one can do nothing but submit in front of him. Two years ago, I met a friend, a muslim who converted to fundamental islam, when I got into sikhi. He said he was surpirised I was still into sikhi. I said why, and asked why he was not into islam anymore. He said "I went into Islam, because it was cause for me. Chechnya, Palestine, etc. Muslims being killed everywhere. After time it faded. The prayers are good but it faded." I replied "we have causes in sikhi aswell. But sikhi was never a cause for me. It is a lifestyle. Sikhi is about becoming a better person. That is something that will take all of my lifetime to do. I am in it for life. One can never stop being a better person". waheguru ji ke khalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, currently working on a jeevani of bhai sahib. just to point out, he was not a nihang. Not sure where these references come from. I think you will find that most sikhs are just sikhs, like us, with no real association with anyone apart from Guru and Panth. It is very concerning the way many youth feel it necessary to associate everyone with something in a whole "us & them" thing. I honestly thought many youth would drift away from badges, but increasingly i think they are more into it than elders. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, gurbani states, "rather than looking outwards, or going on pilgramages. Look inside you and search for God there. " waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, It is nice that many of you have had good experinces at camps and learned so much. Rather than open our minds, it is shame some seem to be closing them. Is Taksali singh Jaskeerat Singh from leeds. If so I am very surprised at your comments. If any questions were not answered, then attend again, or ask them here or anywhere. I sure Guru Maharaj will do kirpa, and some Gursikhs will be able to answer them. As far as Sampooran Rehras. I believe that topic was discussed in the question/answer session. I know because I was the one on stage who picked out that question for the panel. Yes, at the camp, one gursikh did Siri Akal thakht requirement of Rehras. That was there strict view. Another bibi on waja did the longer Rehras. Maybe this shows the kind of diversity you have at khalsa camp. If we as youth look to bring people together by reducing the number on contraversies they have, then are we doing any paap? Instead I would ask you to tell me which rehras is not sampooran? Veer ji, all bani is from "Dhur". Is it all "Poorran". Even if someone was illerate and just did "ik onkaar" or "mool manter". Even that is pooran. I would ask you to not to slander any bani by saying this rehras is sampooran, and this is not. When talking about bani we should be far more careful about the words we use. Sometimes directly or indirectly we can be offensive to bani. Veer ji, If they are the only complaints you have about khalsa camp. I would hardly say they are decisive that it is a groupist camp. I think the majority of camps in UK do not do what you would call a Sampooran rehras. Even the old boss camps which I attended did not. Further I would ask you, if you genuinely are against groupism, to first look at your username. Secondly work towards reducing contraversies and misinformation, rather than spread them. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, just to clarify, as some people seem intent on spreading misinformation. Khalsa camp is something very different to many camps we have today. Das has been doing seva at many camps for the last 10 years. All camps aim to inspire non-sikhs into sikhism. After a while we realised many young people come into sikhi and then leave. There is nothing for them as a support structure, or to teach them to become better sikhs and progress further. Hence Khalsa Camp came along. It is a camp which purely promotes spirituality within the Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib. It attracts people through spiritual advancement, rather than being activities-based. It does have activities, the last camp there was paintballing, clay-pigeon shooting, golf, football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, pilates, aswell as a day trip to the beech. This is plenty of activities in one camp. This years camp is near the Lake district. However if you speak to any campers, they will always say the things they remember are the Amrit-velas sessions, amazing keertan sessions, and rainsbhai, the high quality of the speakers, the way in which everyones questions are answered, the spiritual nautre of the event, and the way everyone feels so inspired. If you are going to a camp to just do activities, and have a laugh, then khalsa camp is probably not for you. If you are going to camp for some activities, but mainly to learn how to be a better sikh, get your questions answered, do Gurbani vichaar and sangat with jeevan wale Gursikhs then khalsa camp is for you. Whether mona or practicing sikh, if you wish to learn, experience and share about sikh spirituality then Khalsa camp is for you. Hence "Discover the Spirit Within". Veer taksali singh - your comments about Khalsa camp are wrong. It does seem strange that one who uses his username based on a group, is accusing a camp which has attracted hundreds off people for over a many years as groupist. That is hypocritical no matter what your views. I would urge you to speak to all those youth who associate themselves with Taksal, and have attended KC, particularly the last two years. Maybe they will tell of the kind of spiritual experiences they had there. Khalsa camp is where the Panth should be going. It is professional, and spiritually based. It does Sanj of Naam, Bani and abyass. You do not get unity by just talking about it, you get it sitting and practicing naam, bani and abyass together. That is what creates real bonds. waheguru ji ke khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, spreading a fragrance of truth reveals truth, spreading of falsehood leads us to prejudice. Caste is a scourge, not only in sikhi, but also hinduism ,and in the asiain subcontinent. it creates misery and indifference,no matter on whatever level it is practiced. All Gursikhi forums should have rules based on Gurbani. hence my humble benti to the admins is "recognise the human race as one", and not allow any names with caste connatations. waheguru ji kekhalsa,w aheguru ji ke fateh

Singhmota stated - This state ment of yours is also wrong Jagjit Ji How so? This is my assesment from comparing the books to the personal interviews with the people involved which I conducted myself. Singhmota stated - Bibi Amarjit Kaur had openly stated at that time 'Jarnail singh ney sadde singh marvatey.' Possibly she may, anyone would be upset to see the jeevan saathi shaheed. However as far as I am aware no official statements where made. Please correct me if I wrong. Speak to nay sikh widow in the heat of the moemnt, and naturally emotions are strong. Singhmota stated - The AKJ of the time blamed Sant Ji openly and called him a coward for staying behind. Do you know why sant ji stayed behind???? From my research AKJ only made a statement delivered by Bibi Harsharan kaur. An extract from Kurbani, "The Akhand Kirtani Jatha made two demands after this incident. Firstly, they demanded justice according to the law. Secondly, they wanted an assurance that no one should ever show any disrespect to the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Bibi Harsharan Kaur categorically stated, “we have nothing to do with politics, but we will not give up these two demands.”" I have yet to see any statement By Sant jarnial singh ji against BKI, but I heard many in their favour mentioning specific Singhs. Also I have yet to see any literature from BKI against Baba Jarnial Singh, If you have seen some please produce it. So based upon facts, and completely devoid of hearsay and speculation. It is clear there was a working relationship. This is further emphasised by many first hand accounts of Operation Bluestar. Singh mota stated - It is a humble request to you aswell that DO NOT make statements when you were not there. 10 years from know people will start quoting Jagjit Ji said this and Jagjit Ji said that. So refrain from commenting or elaborating on what you have not seen. Veer ji, it is my humble request, that unless you produce information to the contrary then please do not make assupmtions. If of course you were there eye witnessing all these events in 1978 and 1984 and beyond, then please identify yourself. Then in the interest of balance and truth, I would would be happy to interview yourself also. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, most know of the capture of Bhai Jagtar Singh Hawara, who is the head of BKI in India. He has already said he had nothing to do with the cinema bomb blasts, which most already have realised is a set-up just to give sikhs a bad name. However I was thinking about the character of Bhai jagtar Singh. 1. This is a person who at a very young age, when all other jujarhoos were looking to some how get abroad, or disappear in India, he instead with other Singhs assasinated Beant Singh CM, in the most difficult circumstances. 2. Then after being caught for it always maintained they did it and stayed in Chardi kala. They never tried to deny it, instead openly shouted for Khalistan in courts. 3. While in jail, he and other singhs stood up for the rights of the other inmates, and at times were tortured severely for doing this. Other times they went on hunger strikes, and lived with "Anekh" as all Gursikhs should. 4. Then came the most daring escape. Something you see in hollywood films. Such was the amazing nature of it, that most people gave them up for dead. Many thought it was a police set-up. People did not believe anyone could possibly even do such a thing. It was a real Bhai Bidhi Chand story of amazing feats. 5. Then once free, but on the run. Most people would go to Pakistan or somehow try to get out of the country. No, not this Singh, he instead stays in Punjab, starts recruiting again, and tries to revive the movement. If that is not Chardi kala then what is? How many people would really do that? 6. The police by their own admission had no idea where he was. He was operating in such a clandestine way, that his arrest was pure accident. 7. He openly said in he had nothing to do with cinema blasts. This is coming from someone who openly said he killed Beant Singh realising the consequences was to be hanging till death. So we can clearly assume he had nothing to do with it. Bhagat Singh is a hero of The Indian Nation. Compare their lives and Bhai Jagtar singh has done more at a younger age. If Bhagat Singh is a hero of India, then Bhai Jagtar is definately a hero of the Sikh Nation. We should never hype anyone up, because we never know what will happen in the future. But one thing is clear, this Singh is something special. And looking at his pictures one thinks he has done so much at such a young age aswell. At this moment and in the future he will have to see so many difficult times... May Guru Maharaj bless him with Eternal Chardi kala! waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, as neither of us wish to drag this further lets not. Just to clarify, Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara was a great soul. Before he passed away he was very much against what the Panchain had become. What his role is the creation of Panchain, does not compare to his whole jeevan of selfless seva, study of Gurbani, teaching of keertan, and Panthik stature. waheguru ji kekhalsa,waheguru ji ke fateh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Pyare jio, It is for Bhai Amolak singh to say what he really thinks. Not for me to say with my limited experience. All I know is what is said in front of me. I saw what happened between Bibi ji, bhai mehar singh and all the AKJ Uk elders including the then Jathedar Bhai Rama Singh ji. This all happened in the last 10 years. Clearly you have your ideas and my differ, I do not see what you wish to accomplish. This was about Baba Jarnial singh and the BKI. I have complete respect for them, just not for the role that Bibi ji and rest of those who created Panchain did. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, excellent seva to pull out such an old video. I cannot get the sound, it stops after a few minutes. can webmaster help? Waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio, the comments I have made may have upset you, but are based on what i have have visually witnessed over the last 10 years. Maybe Bhai Amolak singh calls bibi ji mata to her face, that is his perogative. But my comments are my observations, disagree if you may, thats fine, but I do not appreciate silly mails in a threatening manner. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh Pyare jio maharaja Duleep singh tried to get an army to get his kingdom back, but he was unable to do so and died a broken man. Christianity was enforced on him throughout his life, so when it came to his death, I would be sure they buried him. I do not think they were interested in what his choice was. waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh