Niranjana

Have a look at the following thread which concerns "Hindu Sarabloh Bibekis" on Tapoban:- http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.ppa?f=1...i=22258&t=22258

Gurminder Jee, Thanks for your insight into some of the discrepancies, it is this that needs to be high lighted and not one's personal opinion of Niddar Singh or anyone else. Your points concerning the inaccuracies within his presentation are well made and these should be raised to him directly -alternatively compile this list in full without the 'nang' this and 'nang' that commentary and present it online for sensible analysis. Only point I would like to point out is the Muslim member of the discussion who did make a final point in the last lecture, where I was also present was in fact a Sunni Muslim and from my attendence to the lecture the week before had a long discussion/argument with Bahadur Singh concerning the position of Sikhi and the usual "Islam is the only true path..." so he certainly cannot be considered to be a Shia as I'm sure he would protest quite understandable, against such a notion! It was good to see the Gurdwara representatives in attendance, however as with a similar session with Ramgharia Gurdwara Slough, the shame is that the Singh Sabha Gurdwara Members tend to make a few points and then disappear without the chance for discussi on, which doesn't really help either side of the argument. (in the case of the Ramgharia Gurdwara, quite predictably, they would make a few 'neutral' remarks and then leave!). My experience so far with all the groups that I have had the chance to sit in sangat with, be they Nihangs, AKJ, Taksal, Namdharis, Singh Sabhas, Ramgharias or whoever, Sikhs really do have a hard time having a simple discussion!

Gur Fateh! The main problem I have seen to date with the UK Nihangs/Sanatan Sikhs and other Sikhs in the UK is simply that Sikhs are oh so emotional when it comes to 'actually' discussing matters. Look at this thread, 80% of the comments are either insults or 'I heard from so and so' or 'they say bad things that are twisted from the dasam granth' and so on. What are these things, let's actually prove them wrong with facts! MS514 veer ji has been the only one on this thread to make a sensible comment -i.e. let's look at some hard facts and do something proactive (i.e. contact the Buddha Dal and verify matters etc) From my time online, I have been harassed by a certain 'respected and knowledgeable' individual "gursikh", been called a NANG by a certain "Gursikh Bibi" -none of whom know me or even have tried to speak to me -all they are doing is acting out of emotion and venting their anger of the Nihangs on whoever they consider an easy target. The funniest of it all is that I am not even a Nihang, I wear a 'samosa' dastaar and took amrit from a Gurdwara in Delhi and follow a rehit not too disimilar to that propagated by the Damdami Taksal (i.e. a little more than was given to me by the DGMC), yet simply asking a few questions or pointing out a few areas causing people to jump on the band wagon and term me a NANG. Likewise, I see too many people who don't listen or read upon on the material presented on the Sanatan Sites and simply use it to find loop holes in their 'percieved' marayda to allow them to do a whole host of anti-Gurmat activities. In either case, these are the issu es of the people involved, i.e. they are looking for a means to 'get out' and likewise for those who feel it necessary to insult non-Nihangs, in many cases female Gursikhs, as a means to "getting to their Nihang friends" even if those whom they attack and harass may not share the opinions of the Nihangs. This type of behaviour is not limited only to this forum, we can see the type of responses that people ramble up like the childish website created using dolls for Baba Santa Singh etc, which only point to one's inability to discuss. Even on Sikhawareness.com -a site commonly accused of being pro-UK Nihangs, we can see the same trend as above, yet nothing constructive from either side. The moderators on that site have even arranged for 2 Discussions on the historical points put forth by the UK Nihangs and some other points of conflict using actual "historical sources" i.e. hard facts. It is surprising to see that none of the Nihangs or Nirmalas have to date been able to provide a response to the areas raised and more so that those who despite the UK Nihangs so much have not contributed to these threads, yet continue to slander them "personally" elsewhere on Sikhawareness and this forum and others. All this points to is that Sikhs whosoever they be, clearly prefer 'personal' attacks or 'snide' remarks rather than actual discussion. The comment here about 'all other means have failed' -come on!!! What other means? All we have really seen is people attack personalities. Same for the Nihangs, they all reliant on what Nihang Niddar Singh says and very few actually bother to go and read the sources themselves -this is no different to the manner in which other Sikhs are happy to tag along with the 'maryada' propagated by their Sant, Baba or Bhai Sahib without question or reference to any historical texts or even Guru Sahib in entirety. For evidence of this, do a search on this site, tapoban or sikhawareness for a discussion on Nanaksar for example and one will see many criticism if not out right hatred for Baba Nand Singh's maryada as followed by present day Nanaksaria. I am not here to defend the mainstream Sikhs or the Nihangs or any group in fact. I count myself as a Sikh and all I am concerned about is Sikhi and our true unadulterated history and culture. If there is condemnation to be aired, it will be aired, be it to the Tat Khalsa or the Sanatanists and likewise for the praise. Let's look to our original sources and apply reason and actually 'discuss' matters. Perhaps a discussion like the one the moderators are attempting to have on Sikhawareness on here will allow this to happen. Simply getting fustrated is not going to solve anything. Gur Fateh! Niranjana.

Just to be clear, the analogy was between the Queen, not the darbar...a Gurdwara is a Darbar, nothing less. That also means, walking in their with your tracksuit bottoms and massive karas like "gangstas" is not protocol either. Likewise having pendu christmas decorations around Maharaj is far short of the respect that needs to be given.

This is simply a matter of protocol. We are fast forgetting what a Gurdwara is actually representing and this is partly due to the influence of committee/management trying to copy and emulate their christian Church of England style approach. The Gurdwara is a "Darbar" -a court. Guru Granth Sahib is the "Maharaja" -King (of Kings) We, the sangat are Courtiers of Maharaj's Darbar. Any court has its protocol. We have ours:- -Remove shoes (and wash hands and feet) -Keep your heads covered -Do not turn your back to Maharaj -Do not gossip in the presence of Maharaj These customs are not unique to Sikhs, they are customary in all Darbars of Moghul and Hindu Emperors and Rajas. Hence, why the Sri Guru is placed on a thakt (throne) and has the royal attendent at guard and in service -this is largely missing today, for would you expect the Queen of England say to allow just anyone, no matter how much pyar they had for her etc etc, to be her personal guard and much less her attendent? Well, likewise for Maharaj. There is nothing brahmanical or prejudice about it. Only an Amritdhari can perform this service in the Darbar. At home or elsewhere, this may be relaxed, however in a Gurdwara, these roles are reserved for Amritdharis.

Guru Gobind is paraphrased, I believe in the Suraj Prakash Granth as saying:- "BIN ABHYAS, SHASTER BHEEK JANO" "Without training know your weapons as poison".

lol! I was referring to the 1 foot+ blade! It's a little difficult to fit that one under the three piece Suit! As per what others think, that's not a concern, since they all know about my Kirpan as I gave them all the '3-min' lecture as you put before I took Amrit, as you say, all are very keen to understand. But you're right about the holes, that's why I try my best to only wear a suit on days I have external meetings, other days the office permits a more casual approach and one can keep the sha ster more freely. Personally, my concern is that a Kirpan, whatever the size should be a shaster proper, i.e. sharp and of reasonable quality AND one should strive to be proficient in is use.

Harmeet Singh, You're sure right here, he never mentioned Baba Virsa. The main reason for this, as cited by one of the few people I have known close to 3HO, is that YB was sent to the USA by Virsa (although this doesn't check out with the more generally accepted account of him leaving via Amritsar after befriending a White American Lady who he taught Yoga and much less with the visions of Guru Ram Das account). In any event, all the 3HO mantras, were given from Baba Virsa, however he and YB parted company when YB failed to return to Baba Virsa with his new American chelas. The "Mahan Tantrik" account certainly warrants further investigation -have a look at Dan Singh's site on this and his psychology degree.

Harmeet Singh, if you don't mind me asking first, what concern is it to you of my gender?

Gur Fateh Sleeksikh, Please don't get me wrong, however Harmeet Veer is right to raise the issue and 3HO and YB are not all rosy as many make them out to be, even more so with regards to the goings on at the Karam Kriya Numerology centre, where "numbers" and other neo-pagan/new-age ideals are given more importance than Gurmat. Unfortunately, when it comes to discussing 3HO and/or YB, we either have the blinkered, oh wow, look its white and black americans (and others) all wearing turbans, and the women too and oh wow they "look" so chardi-kala....or...we have the YB is a manipulative self-obessed sant-type individual and 3HO are a cult. To be honest, in my personal experience both views are way too extreme and a better analysis is required if we are to understand the legacy that YB has now left behind. Critique is certainly warranted, however let's try and be realistic and objective about it.

please forgive me for my ignorance, i don't keep a kirpan yet so don't know all this yet.... :wub: @ if a kirpan is sarbloh (iron), wouldn't that rust if the blade gets wet? I suppose you would tie the gatra of the kirpan around your head to prevent that....But how bout when you gotta wash your hair? I'm juz wondering how you would protect the blade or the sheath from getting water damaged or whatever. Gatra isn't big deal right? I mean, most of ya'll probably got more than one so if ones gets dirty or something you put on another one and wash this one...... Simran, Depending on who you talk to, the exact 'procedures' (as some have made them) will vary, however in short, one ties the kirpan to their head with a keski or around their waist using a short kamarkasa (waist band). The issue of " sarabloh" is one which is perhaps best discussed when people who are feel that all shasters must be sarabloh answer Gurbarakaal's earlier post. Hope this helps.

Manjot Singh, I agree with your comments, I work in an office (suited booted) so a 1ft long kirpan is not possible for me either nor is wearing a kamarkasa. I reference the Hazoor Sahib hukamnama for the Veer/Bhain-Jee who was asking if it is acceptable for the minature version to completely replace the full sized shaster. At the end of the day, it boils down to practicality. We keep our kirpans on us at all times, even in the shower. I very much doubt, if one's main kirpan is a 2ft Shamshir, that they will want to take that to the shower with them! Likewise, when adorned in full Bana, I very much doubt one would intend to have simply a necklace kirpan (nakha) with them.

There are many injunctions cast in the puratan rahitnamas, are you telling me we are to apply all of them? For instance, rehitnamas forbidding the learning of Farsi -oh whoops this makes Bhai Nand Lal and even Guru Gobind Singh violators of rehit! Let's please try and think about what is said and 'why' rather than simply matching one line quotes with face-value situations. Yoga is hardly the biggest concern with YB, more important are his supposed title, indoctrination of new age ideas into Sikhi, alteration of Khalsa rehit and flawed hukamnamas.

GurBar Akaal, Thank you for your comments, you are indeed correct -anyone who has even elementary knowledge of martial arts will know just how much can be done with even the smallest of weapons. As per duelling with kirpans or knives, let's just put it this way, even if one party is skilled and the other unskilled, one of you is going to hospital and the other dead. It is surprising to see how so many Sikhs today "talk" about Kirpans and yet possess no knowledge whatsoever of basic self-defense -me included. As per not having to wear your main shaster, I point you again to the Hazoor Sahib Hukamnama indicating that one keeps a minimum 1 foot Sri Sahib in their Kamarkasa.

The issue of Yogi Bhajan and 3HO is a complex one and need not be mixed in with the Dasam Granth debate. Frankly anyone referring to this material as pornographic needs their head examined. The Kabio Bach Benti Chaupai, is taken from the 404 Chariters (as clearly referenced at the end of the Paath following the Arill by Maharaj himself -of course, all the reformist SGPC sikhs won't know that since your gutkas have these references conveniently censored out of them). This is a another discussion at any rate. Back to YB and 3HO, your points are nothing new and Sikhnet will simply not allow such discussions so there's no point heading there. These matters need to be brought into perspective, most of the slander against YB comes from ex-3HOers who in most instances are no longer Sikhs and never really understood what it meant to be a Sikh, so let us not forgot this bias. In addition, 3HOers will simply turn the blind eye against any accusation to their leader. The Baba Virsa of Gobind Sadan claim is one propagated by the UK Nihangs in particular following Nihang Niddar Singh's meeting with Baba Virsa, although he is said to have stated that he never saw any kundalini yoga practised there, although did observe havans (as per what Gobind Sadan preach on their site). YB himself has always maintained that his ustad is Sant Hazara Singh (himself a yogi too) -however, I have often asked respected individuals from the AKJ, Taksal and elsewhere, who are close to YB or linked with 3HO sikhs about Sant Hazara Singh and none of them have any info on him -so who was he??? The Baba Virsa connection is likely in that 3HO and Gobind Sadan bot h retain various 'udasi' practices in the form of Yoga, Auyrveda, Meditation styles, Particular Vegetarian Diet (i.e. specified modes of so-called Yogic and Auyrvedic diets), acknowledgement of Baba Sri Chand's works etc etc. I personally have no issue with this part -IF it was entirely authentic, the fact is that Kundalini Yoga as taught by YB is his own idea, just like the Tantrik connatations he often uses (they are not Tantrik in the slightest, study tantra even at a basic level and one can see this), and what I personally find objectionable is his title of "Cheif authority...Western Hempishere" and the various 'new-age' practices found within 3HO (which incidently, I personally know YB often spoke out against). 3HO is simply another reformist movement, which here is centred around a key individual (like many others throughout our history, Namdharis, AKJ, the original Nirankaris, Singh Sabhas, SGPC etc), however it differentiates itself through its pseudo-yogic terminology and new age practices. YB was a very charismatic leader, respected by the late Bhai Fauja Singh Shaheed (who trained Livtar Singh Khalsa) and also Bhai Sahib Jeevan Singh, who has frequented the 3HO ashrams on numerous occasions, and despite language barriers, spoke highly of the Sikhs he met there and of YB's efforts. Likewise in Bhai Rama Singh's book. In the UK and US, influences from 3HO onto Punjabi Sikhs are notable amongst the Youth with an increase in Bibis wearing 3HO style Keskis and more importantly Gurmat Camps inviting 3HO Sikhs like Shiv Charan Singh of Karam Kriya to hold talks and teach yoga.

Gur Fateh! There is in fact a number of reasons for this. Following the annexation of Punjab the British authorities removed all weapons (inc. some farming tools) from the Punjabi populace, this also meant banning Kirpans. The Sikhs eventually won the right to wear the Kirpans again, however size, limit on the number worn and other restrictions were enforced (hence the modern SGPC and Taksali style kirpans). The hukamnama issued in the late 19th century from Hazoor Sahib indicating that the minimal size of the 'Kamarkasa di Kirpan' (i.e. the main kirpan) should be one foot, when it became apparent that the Singhs in Punjab had begun wearing smaller and smaller shasters. However, until recently, the SGPC based amrit sanchars (i.e. during our grandparent's generation) did permit Ladies to wear Kirpans like this -in fact the Nishkam Sevak Jatha still do so, this arose from the time of the Jaito Morcha and the Akali movement when Kirpans again came to be banned. With all this said, kirpans like this were and still are worn by Singhs 'in addition to' their main kirpans, they are both symbolic and practical (like the smaller dumalla shasters worn by Nihangs) and especially for ladies. Usually they would be worn around the neck and used in close-combat. Whether those who wear them today know how to use them is another story... Hope this helps. By the way that's a nice looking set -where did you take the pic?

Any one?

Singh47, I am not challenging the space that the Akal Thakt occupies in the heart of all Sikhs, however as I stated in my post, I refer to the present "occupiers of the Akal Thakt", they I'm sure you'll agree are two different things. For the record, I am a Vegan, so I am in no way advocating an argument on meat, however this point about criticising Nanaksar for having differences from the "SGPC" is misfounded. All the other groups I mentioned have significant differences between their preaching and practices that advocated by the "SGPC", why is that you are pouncing on Nanaksar alone? I made the comment on meat, because usually here, everyone begins to say "oh no, but our Bhai Sahib, Sant, Leader etc, said no way to meat" hence implying their mat over and above that of the SGPC (who you accord to be the Akal Thakt), however when it comes to other practices of other non-SGPC groups, here Nanaksar, then we see this usual doub le-standard of using the SGPC dictates as the barometer??!!

If this is true, when the Akal Thakt have clearly provided a Hukamnama that it is acceptable for an Amritdhari Singh to eat meat provided it is not Halal meat, then why do we have so many discussions, arguments and fights on this one topic agian and again??? Either stick with it or deal with the fact that the present occupiers of the Akal Thakt simply are not respected fully by all Sikhs, including Damdami Taksal, AKJ, Nihangs, Nanaksar, Nishkam Sevak Jatha etc. If they were, then why all the differences and arguments over little points of Maryada??? It seems that everyone wishes to blow their own trumpet as being the one and only true form of Sikhi as if they damn well own it or something...

Gur Fateh! Who exactly is "Baba Kahan Das"? Please post some information about him and his background.

Gur Fateh! "Sat Nam" is an adjective, not the gurmantra, if it were, should we also adopt the 3HO practice of chanting "Har Har Har" since this is also cited many many times in Gurbani. Dya Singh & Jatha are talented musicians agreed, and yes he 'pulls in the crowd' particularly young children, but what is this going to lead to? Kandola, I have to disagree entirely with your comments on it's all good so long as they are singing Shabd Guru, frankly, it's insulting, as insulting as it is to be taking the parkash of Maharaj into a Bar. Who are we to begin working outside of the Raag (Melody/Mood), Ghar (timecycle), Partaal (Style) prescribed by Guru Maharaj? All these pakandkeertanias are the bane of Sikhi, the parchar is bound to be questionable when the kirtan itself is going against the HUKAM of Guru Sahib.

This is nothing to do with caste. It is true that traditionally on the Khalsa Singh would recite Ardas in the Sangat. Of course, one may recite it themselves otherwise, however in the Sangat of Guru Maharaj's Darbar, only his initiated courtly knights (just like in that of any King -in fact have a look at who is allowed to do any seva in the court of the Queen in England or any other modern day surviving Monarchy). This purely concerns Courtly ettiquette and nothing else.

Gur Fateh! Bhai Gurdas Jee actually refers to it as "Aarti-Sohila" and that it was sung. Gyani Thakur Singh of the Taksal explains why the names have been altered and why the reading of the Rakhiya de Shabd stopped in his DVD on Shudh Santhiya. The argument that it is actually only called "Sohila" and not "Kirtan Sohila" usually boils down to it being known as "Sohila" in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If we take this logic and apply to all our Nitnem Banis, then could someone explain why the Chaupai Sahib is included in the Rehras, which certainly doesn't feature in the Sodar bani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Were those who added it going against Guru Maharaj? I would personally think not, what forms our Nitnem liturgy is a collection of Banis, for instance Shabd Hazare is a name that never occurs in either of the two Granth Sahibs (Sri Guru or Dasam), however we have 2 sets of Nitnem shabds bearing this title. These were shabds that the likes of Baba Ram Singh Namdhari made compulsory for all his sangat and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh also recited both of these with the Singhs his met whilst fighting his cause in Jail.

ms514, Good point on the Vegan aspect and Karah Prashaad. I'm a strict Lacto-Vegetarian, however am pretty much moving as far possible to the Vegan level, more for health than the aforementioned concerns (not that I support the treatment meated out to the cows, but like you say it's not going to entirely possible for Sikhs to totally avoid Diary). My main reason for doing so is the ill-effects of diary products (mainly milk and cheese) in their mucus producing nature...particularly amongst Africans and Asians (why most Desi and Chinese Docs often advise to avoid milk products when one falls ill). since you're involved in the medical field, perhaps you could offer some advice on this front? Thanks.

Rumours, are great things aren't they!!! A true hallmark of our desi-culture!