proactive

8 lakh! You would be hard put out to get even 8 thousand Nihangs together so I don't know where all your identity cards have been going to. Could there be a new scam going where those who want out of Punjab think having a Nihang identity card will give them a better chance of entry into foreign countries. Seriously 8 Lakh, I've travelled all over Punjab and I've never come across more than 1 or 2 Nihangs in any bus or train. Even then I see them arguing with a bus conductor wanting to wriggle out of paying the bus fare. So 60% of Sikhs in Rajasthan are associated with Budha Dal, are you again a bit off with your figures? There's about 10 Lakh Sikhs in Rajasthan, so are you seriously claiming that 6 lakh Sikhs in Rajasthan are associated with Budha Dal? FYI I have been to Rajasthan, having visited relatives in Ganganagar, Karanpur as well as Kota and Alwar. At the last place I stayed with relatives of my best friend. I can't say I noticed more Nihangs in Rajasthan than in Punjab. If anything there were less Nihangs than in Punjab. So I suggest you get real about figures.

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Is that all you have. I wonder how long it took you to think up such a reply! Like it or not, these three groups don't have a large following amongst Amritdhari Sikhs. Most of the Amritdharis is my area in Punjab would think you were off your rocker if you said that you have something called the Budha Dal Gutka. A Gukta is a Gutka to these people and not an AKJ Gutka or a Taksal Gutka. This is why this forum gives a very unrealistic picture of what it is to be a Sikh. Anyone reading this forum would assume that these three group are the majority of Amritdhari Sikhs. As for the fixation of some people on Nihangs those who didn't know better would think that most Sikhs are Nihangs, then it's the Taksal and then the AKJ and the Sikhs who believe and follow the Panth Pranvit Rehat maryada are just a few dozen!

The Panth Pranvit Rehat Maryada is what a majority of Amritdhari Sikhs follow. Although going by this forum one would assume that AKJ, Nihangs and Taksal consist of the majority of the Panth. In the real world 95% of Amritdhari Sikhs follow the Panth Pranvit Rehat Maryada. It doesn't mention anything about colours because the Gurus kept their maryada down to a minimum. It gradually over time that people have started to add their own 'mat' instead of just following Gurmat. The Gurus didn't devise a Sharia type law because these things are transistory and liable to change over time. It's only in the west that you get different jathebandis and now belief in so-called Mahapurkhs and their own personal Rehat Maryada.

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It's surprising how quickly all those who took offense at his article were able to take action against him yet the Kukas who have been saying that Guru Granth Sahib was not given Gurgaddi for the last 150 years get away scot free. At least be consistent, if you want to 'sudhaar' everyone whose opinions you don't like then at least take care of all of him. I personally haven't read his article and to be honest with you even if he said the worst types of things then he didn't deserve to be killed. MQLQ veerji makes a valid point, if we take this type of unilateral action to it's logical conclusion then Sikhs would be killing Kukas, AKJ would be killing Sanatanis, Nihangs would be killed 'angreji' Sikhs. When is this idiotic cycle going to end. To those who think that my thinking is taking this event to extremes, just look at Pakistan and Iraq, one type of Muslims are willing to kill dozens of another type of Muslims without a second thought. Anyway whatever his crime, Seona will get judged according to his action as will we all one day. Here's an article I found about his background. =================== Gurfateh, Please read newsitem in REF[1] and REF[2] whereby a Sikh missionary was attacked in Darbar Sahib complex by Taksaal activists few months back. Whole family of missionary Darbara Singh Seona was Amritdhari. Also he had donated his ancestral land to Akal Academy Baru Sahib. Also it was reported by Baru Sahib Academy that his daughter had donated Rs 5 lakh to the academy from personal finances. Yesterday Sardar Darbara Singh Seona was murdered. Rgds Amandeep Singh http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080913/punjab1.htm#11 * Akali leader shot dead Tribune News Service * Patiala, September 12 Three scooter-borne miscreants shot dead Akali leader Darbara Singh Seona at his welding shop near No. 21 railway crossing here this evening. Seona, earlier an active member of the SAD (Amritsar), had defected to the SAD (International). His wife Jaswinder Kaur was a former SGPC member. Two of the scooter-borne miscreants, who came from the Gurdwara Dukh Nivaran Sahib side, fired indiscriminately at 60-year-old Seona from a revolver. While one of the bullets pierced his neck, the two hit him in the chest. An injured Seona tried to hit back at the assailants with a hammer. Seona was rushed to the Rajindera Hospital, but he died on the way. -- Rgds Amandeep Singh REF[1] http://kalgidharsociety.org/news/Seona.asp *Akal Academy - Seona (30th)* *Date:* 10 September, 2007 *Location:* Village Seona, *Tehsil *Patran, Distt. Patiala, Punjab *Land donated by:* *S. Darbara Singh Seona and his family (5 acres)* *Dignitaries present:* Baba Iqbal Singh Ji, Dr. Khem Singh (Vice-President, The Kalgidhar Trust), Baba Balbir Singh Ji *Garhi Sahib Wale,* Raja Malvinder Singh Patiala, S. Nirmal Singh Butrana (MLA), Prof. Ram Singh Kular, Jathedar Paramjit Singh Doabia, S. Karnail Singh Panjoli, Jathedar Santokh Singh Kalvanu, Mr. Tej Kumar Goel, S. Balraj Singh .....*More*<http://kalgidharsociety.org/news/Seona.asp> REF[2] http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080526/punjab.htm * Family attacked in Golden Temple serai<http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080526/punjab1.htm#1> * Amritsar, May 25 Activists of a radical Sikh organisation today injured a former woman SGPC member, her husband and two daughters in Baba Jeevan Singh serai, near SGPC complex, here today. [image: Former SGPC member Bibi Jaswinder Kaur Seona (left), her husband Darbara Singh Seona, a Sikh scholar and daughters, who were beaten up in a serai of the Golden Temple in Amritsar on Sunday.] *Former SGPC member Bibi Jaswinder Kaur Seona (left), her husband Darbara Singh Seona, a Sikh scholar and daughters, who were beaten up in a serai of the Golden Temple in Amritsar on Sunday. — Photo by Vishal Kumar* * Family attacked in Golden Temple serai Sanjay Bumbroo Tribune News Service * Amritsar, May 25 Activists of a radical Sikh organisation today injured a former woman SGPC member, her husband and two daughters in Baba Jeevan Singh serai, near SGPC complex, here today. About 50 to 60 activists of a radical Sikh organisation armed with swords and lathis knocked at the room of Darbara Singh Seona at 11 am to seek apology from him for the alleged blasphemous article in a Punjabi daily. However, he refused to apologise for the article stating he was prepared for a debate on the issue. SP( city-1) Babu Lal Meena said the victims had been admitted to the civil hospital and a case would be registered against the accused after receiving the medical report.

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Jaggi also helped Indira Gandhi after operation Bluestar. The Indian government produced thousands of video tapes which it sent overseas in 1984 showing Kukas saying how good it was that 'terrorists' had been removed from the Durbar Sahib. These Kukas must have been supplied by Jaggi.

Aamir Khan, Shah Rukh Khan or even one of the ladies who do the Can Can could have done better than Amir Khan!!

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You should check what the store's policy is on money found by their employees. Some employers would class an employee keeping money they found whilst at work to be theft. The law is England is that if you find any money then you can hand it into the police station. The police will then keep it for a month in case the person who lost the money comes into the station to report their loss. If they can convince the police that they money handed in is their then they can have it. The police will inform you that it has been claimed. If however no one comes forward within a month, you can go to the police station and they will hand the money back to you. After that legally and morally you can do what you want with the money.

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It's easy to be all forgiving and holier than thou when you have nothing personally at stake. Poohla murdered and raped at will with the active connivance of the Indian government. It took a great deal of effort by people who unlike the sanctimonious 'do nothing' people here to convince the courts to take notice of his crimes. The likelihood was that either the cases against him would have been made to drag on for years on end meanwhile he would have bribed the judge to let him have bail. Then all he would have had to do was to attend court every few months and get a continuance. It's unlikely that the hundred or so victims and relatives of his victims would have seen any justice. It's easy to say that we shouldn't judge but as people have pointed out here Sikhs have had to judge and punish people throughout history. Massa Ranghar, Indira Gandhi, Lalit Makan, Sajjan Kumar and General Vaidya come to mind. If you view is that we shouldn't judge let alone act upon our judgement to punish the guilty then Indira Gandhi would still be alive and possibly have done much worst to Sikhs by now than she did in June 1984. The non-judgemental trend is something that is more to do with Christianity than it is to do with Sikhism. The flaws in such a view can be seen from the poster who disagreed with the actions but then had to admit that if the action had been done through the Kirpan then it might have been ok! Poster Apne seems to have some personal grudge against the person who killed Poohla, maybe he could elaborate?

Channel 4 announces return of Undercover Mosque Three months after Dispatches: Undercover Mosque won a police apology and libel damages, Channel 4 has announced it is returning to the subject in Undercover Mosque: The Return. Earlier this year West Midlands police and the Crown Prosecution Service paid out a six-figure sum to Channel 4 and Undercover Mosque Hardcash, the independent producer responsible for the documentary, after falsely accusing the programme of misleading viewers. The documentary, an undercover investigation into extremism in mainstream British mosques, featured preachers calling for homosexuals to be killed, espousing male supremacy, condemning non-Muslims and predicting jihad. read the rest here-; http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/aug/2...&feed=media ---------- You would have thought the Muslims would have learned a lesson and cleaned up their mosques but it seems the mosques are as bad as ever!

I don't know what you guys are worried about. Obama will win in November and world peace will break out everywhere!

Give him a break guys. He's clearly said that he's never said that he only wear a turban because of his parents and he hasn't said anything anti-Sikh. If he doesn't measure up to your ideal of what a Sikh should be at least respect the fact that he has given Sikhs some prominence in the media. Apart from Monty who have we got representing us? I remember watching him on TV a few years ago and he did a programme for schools on racism. He went to glasgow (i think) and he was opening shouted at by some racist gora <banned word filter activated> and he confronted the <banned word filter activated>. He's usually on that daily programme, I forget the name but he's a roving reporter and he's great in that role because he uses his humour well. Btw if you really are Hardeep, can you give a slap from me to that git Dominic Littlewood, that guy is so annoying! for the guys who don't live in the UK, this is dominic littlewood

There is a difference between the partition losses and the jewish holocaust, the difference is that all the parties involved, the Akali Dal, Congress and Muslim League agreed to partition. The Jews had no input into what happened to them. As for compensation, there might be a slight chance of success mainly based on the fact that the British as the sovereign power had a duty to protect the lives and property of the people. With regard to legal action, the Sikhs in 1947 could have tried an alternative strategy in that because the British had illegally annexed the Punjab to their Indian Empire in 1849 that the transfer of power should have been back to the descendants of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The British had appointed themselves as the protectors of Maharajah Dalip Singh after the first Anglo-Sikh war and then instead of defending their ward against the rebellion in 1848 had in fact treated the rebellion as a war between Sikhs and the British and in doing so annexed the Punjab.

What an <banned word filter activated> Khushwant Singh is, he supports 'complete autonomy' for the Kashmiri Muslims and yet supported KPS Gill's killing of Sikh youth during the Khalistan movement. Look at the present dispute rationally, The Kashmiri Muslims went hyper because the JK Govt gave some acres of land for TEMPORARY huts to be built during the yatra. How many Hindus protest that the Indian govt has given billions of rupees to Muslims in order for them to make the haj. Muslims also don't pay any airport taxes for using the airports when they go on haj. Sikhs using Amritsar airport have to pay airport tax! No wonder Kashmiris like all Muslims can't handle it when they are made to face the consequences of their actions, they managed to stop the land allotment to the Hindu shrine by using their power of protests and the Hindus quite rightly have used their power in Jammu to blockade the Kashmir valley. So what's the big deal here? As for the Kashmir problem, the Sikhs need to be neutral, we've seen Pakistan using all it's power to support the Kashmiris and yet they've achieved nothing. The Pakistanis have been using Afghanis and other Jihadis similar to how they sent their tribals in Kashmir in 1948. These Jihadis like the Tribals of 1948 know that the Sikhs are their enemies as well as after they've got their independence see what happens to the Sikhs in Kashmir. In 1948 over half of the Sikhs of Kashmir were massacred by tribals with some of the local Kashmiris also joining in. If you don't learn the lessons of history you are condemned to repeat them!

There is nothing wrong in listening to Qawalis or any other kind of music provided you do not mistake the euphoria that one can get from music or singing with a spiritual experience. It's a bit like saying listening to some Bhangra song brought me closer to God! Those Singhs in the video are a disgrace because they are dancing around and making a mockery of the Guru's Bana. Although the following Shabad relates to the Vaishnava Krishna Leela, it is relevant to any type of non-Kirtan musical or dramatic performance whose performers or audience try and pass it off as a spiritual experience. Mehlā 1. First Mehl: ਵਾਇਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਨਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ॥ vā­in cẖėlė nacẖan gur. The disciples play the music, and the gurus dance. ਪੈਰ ਹਲਾਇਨਿ ਫੇਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਸਿਰ ॥ Pair halā­in fėrniĥ sir. They move their feet and roll their heads. ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਰਾਵਾ ਝਾਟੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ Ud ud rāvā jẖātai pā­ė. The dust flies and falls upon their hair. ਵੇਖੈ ਲੋਕੁ ਹਸੈ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ vėkẖai lok hasai gẖar jā­ė. Beholding them, the people laugh, and then go home. ਰੋਟੀਆ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥ Rotī­ā kāraṇ pūreh ṯāl. They beat the drums for the sake of bread. ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾੜਹਿ ਧਰਤੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ Āp pacẖẖāṛeh ḏẖarṯī nāl. They throw themselves upon the ground. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਗੋਪੀਆ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ॥ Gāvan gopī­ā gāvan kānĥ. They sing of the milk-maids, they sing of the Krishnas. ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ Gāvan sīṯā rājė rām. They sing of Sitas, and Ramas and kings. ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ Nirbẖa­o nirankār sacẖ nām. The Lord is fearless and formless; His Name is True. ਜਾ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੁ ॥ Jā kā kī­ā sagal jahān. The entire universe is His Creation. ਸੇਵਕ ਸੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਚੜਾਉ ॥ Sėvak sėveh karam cẖaṛā­o. Those servants, whose destiny is awakened, serve the Lord. ਭਿੰਨੀ ਰੈਣਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ Bẖinnī raiṇ jinĥā man cẖā­o. The night of their lives is cool with dew; their minds are filled with love for the Lord. ਸਿਖੀ ਸਿਖਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ Sikẖī sikẖi­ā gur vīcẖār. Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings; ਨਦਰੀ ਕਰਮਿ ਲਘਾਏ ਪਾਰਿ ॥ Naḏrī karam lagẖā­ė pār. granting His Grace, He carries His servants across. ਕੋਲੂ ਚਰਖਾ ਚਕੀ ਚਕੁ ॥ Kolū cẖarkẖā cẖakī cẖak. The oil-press, the spinning wheel, the grinding stones, the potter's wheel, ਥਲ ਵਾਰੋਲੇ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੰਤੁ ॥ Thal vārolė bahuṯ ananṯ. the numerous, countless whirlwinds in the desert, ਲਾਟੂ ਮਾਧਾਣੀਆ ਅਨਗਾਹ ॥ Lātū māḏẖāṇī­ā angāh. the spinning tops, the churning sticks, the threshers, ਪੰਖੀ ਭਉਦੀਆ ਲੈਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਹ ॥ Pankẖī bẖa­uḏī­ā lain na sāh. the breathless tumblings of the birds, ਸੂਐ ਚਾੜਿ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ਜੰਤ ॥ Sū­ai cẖāṛ bẖavā­ī­ah janṯ. and the men moving round and round on spindles - ਨਾਨਕ ਭਉਦਿਆ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ Nānak bẖa­uḏi­ā gaṇaṯ na anṯ. O Nanak, the tumblers are countless and endless. ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਏ ਸੋਇ ॥ Banḏẖan banḏẖ bẖavā­ė so­ė. The Lord binds us in bondage - so do we spin around. ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਨਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥ Pa­i­ai kiraṯ nacẖai sabẖ ko­ė. According to their actions, so do all people dance. ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ Nacẖ nacẖ haseh cẖaleh sė ro­ė. Those who dance and dance and laugh, shall weep on their ultimate departure. ਉਡਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ਸਿਧ ਨ ਹੋਹਿ ॥ Ud na jāhī siḏẖ na hohi. They do not fly to the heavens, nor do they become Siddhas. ਨਚਣੁ ਕੁਦਣੁ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ Nacẖaṇ kuḏaṇ man kā cẖā­o. They dance and jump around on the urgings of their minds. ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਿ ਭਉ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਉ ॥੨॥ Nānak jinĥ man bẖa­o ṯinĥā man bẖā­o. ||2|| O Nanak, those whose minds are filled with the Fear of God, have the love of God in their minds as well. ||2||

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