proactive

Yeah, I heard that even Santa Claus had to get police protection to deliver the presents to all the children who had been good this year. Hindus aren't the only ones who don't seem to like Christmas. The Jews aren't that happy about it either! Imagine being a parent having to explain to your kids that they Santa didn't come to your house because the Israelis beat him up!

That's a good point although it's also true that countries like the USA were also born through violence but not the type of ethnic cleansing that Pakistan was born through. I think the present violence is more to do with the exporting of terrorism and the inherent extremism that typifies their religion. If there are no non-Muslims to harrass and kill then they will turn on their fellow Muslims. Only a few years after 1947 the Pakistanis turned on the Qadianis, a few years later it was Shia Vs Sunni and then it was Native vs Mohajir. Now it is Jihadi Vs Moderate. I doubt Pakistan can survive many more of these minor civil wars. Maybe the nation that was created over the dead bodies of lakhs of Sikhs doesn't deserve to survive.

Just heard the news that Benazir Bhutto has been killed in a bomb explosion. Although one shouldn't be happy at anyone's death but considering that lately she had been giving interviews about how she had helped out Rajiv Gandhi against the Kharkoos in 1988. Her actions led to the Punjab police being able to find the Kharkoo hideouts and killed many in fake encounters. Karma has a nasty habit of coming back to haunt you!

Has a Sikh who has committed any terrorist act used the Guru Granth Sahib to justify his actions? Name me a Muslim who has committed a terrorist act and NOT used the Quran to justify his actions. Sikh terrorism cannot exist as there is no justification for a terrorist act in the Guru Granth Sahib. This is not the case for Islam. So Islamic terrorism can and does exists. I suppose you know more about Islam than Bin Laden, Al Zawahiri and others like them who can quote the Quran from memory and against whom no Muslim scholar has been able to argue that their methods are not Islamic.

I don't know why Sikhs are getting so involved in this RSS-Christian tussle. Both are dangerous to Sikhs and latter more so because they have the financial support of the richest countries in the world. The Pope claimed that this century will be the Asian century when they will make all out efforts to convert people from India and China to Christianity. In China the Christians due to negilible opposition from the Budhists are making great leaps and they are trying the same in India. Just as the RSS are experts in distorting Gurbani to suit their agenda the Christians are the same. They have distorted Gurbani to try and show the Jesus was the Guru of Guru Nanak. Some advice to Sikhs. Worry about the effect of Christian propaganda against Sikhi and take a leaf out of the RSS book on how to counter the Christians. The violence against Christians is overhyped by the leftist media in India. Most the RSS work in in parchar against the Christians amongst the vunerable tribals. Most of the Christian preachers in India are trained in American evangelical colleges where they are taught that if they shout the loudest it means that they have won the argument. These preachers send back reports like '2000 baptisted in one week' in order to gain more funds. This gives their backers in the US the feeling that they have managed to save 2000 souls and allows them to do more fundraising to save more souls! One can only imagine the depression these backers get when they read reports of '2000 reconverted back to Hinduism'. One should also get some perspective and read some of the horror stories that come out of the Christian majority states in the north east and Christian persecution of non-Christians tribals.

I don't agree with the term Sikh terrorist, but the spineless leaders of the West could learn a thing or two from Sikh history about how to handle Islamic terrorism. Their handling of Muslims with kid gloves haven't achieved much apart from further terrorist attacks from Muslims.

How about local government or the civil service. There are always jobs going in various govt depts like DSS, Employment service, Inland revenue. The pay isn't the best in the world but it will give you a foothold in the admin field as well as valuable experience. Some local councils have inhouse employment agencies where you can register and they will place you in a temporary position or put you forward for a perm position. For the civil service you will need to apply direct. Good luck in your interviews!

From what I have read the BhavKanth Veda is a recent text that has been added to over time and AFTER the events had already occurred. It's more like a record of events than a text fortelling the future.

Can the mods please delete any off topic posts especially ones about keski as kakaar etc. This thread is about MINDSET and not about discussing specific beliefs. Charandoor Singh, In his lecture Gyani Sher Singh mentions that someone from a missionary background has published a pamphlet that says that before the British times no one had heard of Dasam Granth. I have not seen that pamphlet so I cannot comment on what it says. If it does say that then the author iof that pamphlet does not deserve the title of a scholar because he has made a very basic error which even someone with a basic knowledge of Dasam Granth would not have made. The rest of the lecture had no credibility given the paranoid attempt to blame the British for dressing some Sikhs up in order to subvert the belief in Dasam Granth. I wasn't missing the obvious, just commenting on what you wrote. My comment likening 'the giani told me' story as another one of 'baba said so' mindset obviously totally went over your head. How are you any different from Gyani Sher Singh, he believes in paranoid stories about British conspiracies about Dasam Granth and you bring out an unsubstantiated story about only 4-5 people being left in the final Rehat Maryada committee meeting that some gyani told you. You hedge your bets by asking for someone to investigate but the very fact that you needed to use this story and then in the next sentence you state that the UNSUBSTANTIATED story is a basis to then attack the Panth Pranvit status of the Rehat Maryada and yet you accuse me of having a weak argument! Just to help you with the above statement perhaps I should make this a bit easier for you. I heard from a giani that Singh A who is the pardhan of a Gurdwara committee is taking bribes. I have no evidence for this and perhaps someone can investigate. But the story the Giani told me i true about Singh A makes it clear that Singh A is not worthy of being a Pardhan of a Gurdwara commitee! Unless you know the truth of the story or are willing to investigate it further yourself then there is no need to mention it. Giving the disclaimer 'if true' is the same as saying 'allegedly' just to air an argument which is unsubstantiated but helps to attack the person or stance that one is against. If the people who you now claim had a problem with the final maryada then surely they would have made their views known and the Panth Pranvit status that the Rehat Maryada obtained would have been scuttled. But I think you are aware that some of the followers of these very Babas have a very high opinion of the status that these Babas held with the Sikhs in the 30s and 40s which is out of proportion of what status they actually held. That being said apart from the ridiculous conspiracy stories emanating from their followers there is very little evidence that the way the Rehat Maryada was in any way untoward. I'm glad you share the majority mindset that books such as Suraj Parkash are not 100% true and have the bias of their authors. This is not the mindset which you are defending. The Nihangs that I have met believe that Suraj Parkash is 100% true giving almost in my view the level of Gurbani. I agree with you that these texts whether Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi or Makka Madine Di Goshti need to read taking into account various analytical methods available to the researcher. This is a strange comment, are you sure this is correct. Most Taksalis choose not to eat Jhatka? So you are implying that some do? This is the first I have heard of this given that the DDT Rehat Maryada makes it clear that ALL meat and not just Halal is banned. Again you are making insubstantiated comments to try and link DDT more closely with Nihangs. I would be interested to know who these members of DDT are that chose to eat Jhatka as the DDT Rehat Maryada makes clear that meat (both Jhatka and Halal) is forbidden and anyone eating these or meat killed in any other way is a TRAITOR to the Guru. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you have written is another one of the 'giani told me' stories because I would be hesitant to believe that someone associated with DDT and their strict stance on ALL meat and ALL intoxicants would choose to eat meat. You might want to refresh your knowledge so please see the DDT site for their Rehat Maryada http://www.damdamitaksal.com/rehat.pdf 1984 just an historic event? Well I would say that if one organisation has it's head martyred defending the Durbar Sahib and the head of the other organisation rather than doing anything positive to help then makes common cause with the very person who attacked it in the first place then I would say that it shows a very obvious difference in mindset. We are not discussing ideology, we are discussing mindset. The mindset that says screw the rest of the panth, we want to help out madamji. To you pointing these things out is just a desperate attempt to highlight DDT and Nihang difference. No, it's an attempt to highlight what differences there are in mindset between DDT and Nihangs. No doubt Nihangs and their supporters would like us all to forget 1984 but the actions of Nihangs and more specifically Santa Singh were reprehensible. I tried not to take part in your obviously amateurish attempt to ambush me. Let's look at your lame attempt. I wrote-; and You wrote; and again Nice try, first accuse me referring to ALL Budha Dal and not just sections of it and ALL Nangs, then expand the argument to include Sarbloh Granth that I had not mentioned before you did and then using that text's acceptance as a basis of whether or not one mindset belongs to the extreme or the middle way. Perhaps the reference to reference to a text being considered Gurbani has diverted you. Perhaps I should have just written 'like Gurbani'. But in my view many texts are considered as 100% truth by Nangs.

Is there anything written on the back of the photos? At the period in question (1940's) most photos would have a caption at the back possibly giving the name of the subject of the photo and/or a date. Looks like a photo either taken as a momento by the Sikh soldier or it could be the original print for a photo used in any of the Nazi propaganda magazines printed by the progapanda ministry. Btw be careful sending photos to some people, they are likely to place them on their flickr album and claim to have unearthed them!

Charandoor Singh, From discussion of the mindset you have tried to turn this into a debate over Dasam Granth. Gyani Sher Singh's lecture I found to be of the same mindset that accepts anything that his written in Suraj Parkash as the truth without doing an analysis of the writing and coming up with conclusion based on research. His conspiracy theory about the British dressing up people as Sikhs and getting them to disown and question Dasam Granth in order to stop the Sikhs from trying to get back their sovereignity is just ridiculous and just doesn't do his credibility any good. This flies in the face of most evidence that British tried their best to ensure that Sikh followed their religion especially those they wanted to recruit into their army. Either the British were against the Sikh martial spirit in which case they would done their utmost to ban Dasam Granth and ban Amrit Sanchars or they wanted to utilise this spirit and ensure that Sikhs in their armies took Amrit. You can't have it both ways. Your comment about some Gyani told you that there were only 4-5 people left in the final sitting of the Rehat Maryada committee is just another of the 'baba said this' story. These sorts of conspiracy theories have been doing the rounds lately but the facts are that until the 80s the SGPC was the premier organisation of the Sikhs. None of the Babas who are sprouting everywhere nowadays were able to challenge it at that time and only after the infiltration of the organisation by dushts like Badal has the SGPC gone downhill. None of people who hold great store by challenged the Rehat Maryada at the time but now sensing the weakness of the SGPC they come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories. Your claim that Nihangs and DDT are close ideologically and to prove this you've mentioned the fact that both believe in Sarbloh Granth. But what about Jhatka and what about Sukha? It's easy to bring out a few similar beliefs but forget about the things that they disagree about. The tendancy to link the Nihangs and DDT together flies in that face of the fact that whereas the head of the DDT gave his life for the sake of the Panth by defending the Durbar Sahib, the Nihang chief was a puppet of the very person who had sent the army in the first place. The people who want to link the two organisations together have been working at cross purposes. The Nihangs preach that Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale was a Nihang before he joined Taksal and as such ate Jhatka and possible took Sukha as well. DDT attempts to bring the Nihangs closer by maintaining links with non-Jhatka and Non-Sukha Nihangs like Baba Nihal Singh. Can I ask whether you thinking that everything that is written in Books such as Suraj Parkash, the Gurbilases is 100% correct? Do you believe that Makka Madine Di Goshti is Bani? Was Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi written by Bhai Mani Singh? The rationale for my posts was to point out to Namastang that just as there are Bhasauria types that question everything and think that their mat is better than the Gurus there are also those who accept everything they are told and accept everything that is written in books like Suraj Parkash as 100 truth. The middle way is the ones who combine belief with rationality and use their mat in order to decide whether what is written in these books is in accordance with Gurbani or the biases of the author.

The blame lies in disunity and the partibaazi attitude that many Sikhs have. If one Gurdwara committee supports one guy then you can be your bottom dollar the other committee will support his opponent. People like Dosanjh make use of this knowing that even though he knows nothing about Sikhism and probably follows some kind of communist style atheism, he can rely on his friends in the committees to support him. The common Sikhs just see an 'apna' in the elections and would vote for him rather than a Gora. Then there's the usual non-participation of Keshdhari Sikhs or alternative Sikh candidates to the likes of Dosanjh. To the Gora establishment he can get votes by presenting himself as a 'modern' Sikh compared to the 'extremist' Keshdharis. That's why people like him have an interest in prepetuating the myth that Sikhs brought down Air India and that's why accepting the verdicts of the court would be political suicide for these people. They create 'extremist' Sikh bogeymen in order to keep their seats. Dosanjh has made his political life based on some supposed beating he got in 1985. He recently tried to gain more mileage to his flagging career by saying that he received 'death threats' when he spoke against the Nagar Kirtan in Surrey. What is needed is for keshdhari youth to enter the political arena and break the stranglehold that the communist types like Dosanjh have on the community. While the rest of the world has thrown these communist types into the dustbin of history we Sikhs still have them around our necks doing their worst to sabotage the Sikh cause and hurt the Sikh image at every opportunity.

I'm skeptical about such articles because other religions also use this type of propaganda, recently that muppet Dr Naik said that Mohammed was mentioned in the Vedas and some Hindu showed that it was false and Naik was using fake translations. These articles normally don't mention page numbers or verse numbers so it's difficult to check for oneself. Guru Nanak's Sobha is not made greater if he is mentioned in the vedas and it is not decreased if he is not mentioned.

Charandoor Singh, If you had bothered to read my post you would have understood that I wrote a section of Buddha Dal. Ones who are allied to Niddar and his nangs. Perhaps you could enlighten us of what you're connection is with the UK Nangs? Sarbloh Granth has been discussed before and this thread just proves what the naive and 'because baba says so' mindset, so and so Baba says it's Bani so it must be bani. This is where the whole belief in the infallibility of Babas falls down. These Babas were Pardhans and Secretaries of Sant Samaj and many of them actively sat with fake Babas who were later discredited, so there's goes the 'Baba says it's true' excuse. I have read most of what has been written about Sarbloh Granth and I believe in the side that says that it is not Bani and is the writting of a Granth Sukha Singh from Patna Sahib. This is what Pandit Tara Singh Narotam put forward and that is what most Sikh scholars believe. If you want to believe that something is Bani apart from Guru Granth Sahib because a Baba say's it's bani then that is up to you. Can you tell me whether you believe Makke Madine Di Goshti is Gurbani, Is Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi written by Bhai Mani Singh? As for the Rehat Maryada committe they couldn't approach each and every Jatha for their views and they tried their best to get as much input as possible but with all the conspiracy theories going around mainly started by the Nangs about the Rehat Maryada committee then no matter how many Sants they contacted they nangs would still bring up some other Sant they never got in touch with. Warrior, Faith and intellect (reason). Where reason ends faith begins.

It's strange that some people don't mind using words such as psycho missionaries and thereby undermine the missionary colleges of Punjab who are doing a sterling job there but when I mention Buddha Dal or sections of it that have an extreme mindset then its defamation! Namstang, You are right in the sense that some sampardha have gyan but this is also the case with mainstream Sikh organisations. Don't judge Singh Sabha or Missionaries by what the SGPC or what Badal does. Just as you shouldn't judge some of the Babas by the kartootan of some of the so-called Babas in Punjab. The discrimination based on caste was one of the main reasons that Singh Sabha started, it split into Lahore and Amritsar sections because a section of them such as Bhai Jawahar Singh and Gyani Dit Singh wanted to take this to the logical end that just as you cannot treat someone as lower than others then you can't also treat someone as special compared to other Sikhs. One of the reasons that for the split was because the tradionalist Baba Khem Singh as a descendent of Guru Nanak wanted to be allowed to have a cushion to sit on in the presence of Guru Ganth Sahib and he was addressed as a Guru by his followers. The explanantion for the discrimination of lower castes by Sampardas is pure bukwas. Did the lower castes sit seperately in the sangat during the Gurus times? As one of the other posters said, the sampardas rely on 'baba says so' answers whereas Bhausaria types rely on their own intellect solely and think that their mat is higher than Gurmat. True Sikhi lies in between, it's a mixture of faith and intellect.

Myspace and stuff like that are for sad people without a life. Why don't people get off their butts and do something constructive like play footie or go to woolworths and nick some stuff from there rather than making friends who might not even exist online.

Relax mano, I was commenting on his 100 bullets 100 wahabis signature banner!

Lol, that's funny man. Wait a few more years, become an expert in being able to place just the right amount of geeio on the roti, just enough so that it's neither drenched or dry. Then you can get to have a go on the belna and rolling the rotis! Either that or you can use your new found expertise in chopring the rotian to teach a new trainee!

hmmm i wouldnt find it offensive no, simply because being arabic had nothing to do with being muslim, but i understand what you mean, im sorry for saying that now, and sorry for saying something so offensive. my username on shiachat is the same as this one; maula dha mallang, if you go on the board you can see mine and his posts, language and experiences are totally different. bro Mehtab Singh, lovin the name :lol: I don't think many Sikhs are interested in what the Shia view is of Sikhism and as far as I know apart from Bahadur no other person here would want to get involved in Shia/Sunni matters. Btw what's the latest score in Iraq or for that matter Pakistan. Which one of the Umma is in the lead with regard to bombing the others' mosques or killing kids or mass graves? Latest I heard some 90 Pakistanis were killed in the latest Shia/Sunni love-in!

jey eh yam da doot aa, ta mai yaam dey doot da peyo :lol: Hanji, sare Yam de piyo, mata, massi, massard, saadhu, jija atey hoor parivarik membraan noon dil bhari Sat Sri Akal!

He's either Bahadur or usseh Yam da Doot!

lol no i am a member of a board which he is on though.....i dont understand how thats offensive tho? OK how about if I go on the Shiachat board and say I think Mohammed was a follower of God but Islam is an Arab national movement which was started to give the Arabs a sense of national identity and pride which they didn't have when compared to the Persians and Romans. Islam was started to allow one of the desert cities of the Arabs to become a place of pilgrimage for non-Arab Muslims which in turn would help the Arab economy. Islam isn't really an independent religion but a movement started for the benefit of the Arabs. Do you find that offensive? If so then that is exactly what you have done to Sikhi.

There are two extreme mindsets at present, the mindset that rejects anything to do with a Hindu influence and the mindset that accepts anything that is placed before it as long as there is an elaborate sakhi or some made up story behind it. One mindset can be called the Nang mindset and to a lesser degree Buddha Dal and the other by Bhasauria followers like Kala Afghana. Both take things to the extreme, if one reads the earlier life of Teja Singh Bhausauria then one gets the impression that here was a Gursikh who was making an all out effort to rid Sikhi of the influence of Hinduism. He was against caste when the Nihangs, Nirmalas and the so-called descendents of the Gurus and the other so-called original sapardhas were discriminating against low castes. He looked for answers in Gurbani and questioned the mixture of Hinduism and Popular beliefs that went by the name of Sikhism during his time. At some stage he veered off the Sikhi path and went on to become a Tankhaiya thinking that he knew more than the Gurus and splitting the Bhagat Bani from the Guru Granth Sahib. The same is the case with the other extreme, the Nangs and some factions of Buddha Dal. They will accept any story and anything as long as one of the Gurus is mentioned in the story. They will accept any text that is presented to them and consider it to be Gurbani. They wil believe in lords of the rings type stories about hidden texts and hidden knowledge! The middle way of Sikhi is the Singh Sabha, AKJ and DDT.

All well and good but then this bukwas!! Either you're Bahadur or you've hung around with him too long! What is it with Muslims? They can never say a good word without adding some bukwas at the end of the sentence which totally negates everything they've said!

That Nihal muppet was on TV a few months ago on The Wright Stuff on Channel 5. He's not really that articulate and couldn't put forward a cogent argument which was pretty embarrassing for the presenter. They probably picked him up because hey wanted to have an 'asian' voice of the yoof! These BBC asian types probably got to where they are throught a quota system rather than through any real talent.