Cleric's Comments On Women's Dress Spark Outrage

[Pakandi baba]

I think he does to an extent. If you're showing your b***ies and legs, is that respectable? No it's not. But it does portray women as just being 'meat' - Also points out men are unable to practice self control....

A senior Australian Muslim cleric triggered national outrage today for likening women who dress immodestly to meat that is left out for prey to eat.

Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali's spokesman said the cleric's comments in a sermon last month to mark the Islamic holy month of Ramadan had been taken out of context in a report in The Australian newspaper.

But the spokesman, Keysar Trad, did not challenge the accuracy of the paper's translation.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

The Australian quoted Hilali as saying. "The uncovered meat is the problem."

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he said, referring to the headdress worn by some Muslim women.

Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward said Hilali, a high-profile cleric who has advised the government on Muslim issues, should now be rejected by the country's Islamic community.

A senior Australian Muslim cleric triggered national outrage today for likening women who dress immodestly to meat that is left out for prey to eat.

Sheik Taj Aldin al Hilali's spokesman said the cleric's comments in a sermon last month to mark the Islamic holy month of Ramadan had been taken out of context in a report in The Australian newspaper.

But the spokesman, Keysar Trad, did not challenge the accuracy of the paper's translation.

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without cover, and the cats come to eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat's?"

[singhni84]

Does he have a point? I think he does to an extent

Does he have a point? NO!

If you're showing your b***ies and legs, is that respectable? No it's not.

Is the issue about "being respectable"? NO!

"Respectable" or not, NO woman deserves to be raped. How she's dressed, where she is, what time of day it is...she's never "asking for it". And, putting the victim aside, just how "respectable" is a man who rapes women??

"Pakhandi Baba", rape and sexual assault are acts of extreme violence. They are illegal and carry many many many long-term affects that no woman...no HUMAN...would invite unto themselves. These heinous acts of violence cannot be condoned under any circumstance. A woman may or may not seem "respectable" to you, but that doesn't mean she's asking for it or is in any way a deserving victim. Everyone's understanding of what is or isn't respectable varies, it's subjective, so basically, any woman is fair game as long as you can prove she isn't respectable?

If you leave uncovered meat outside, you can surely expect animals to devour it. Does it make sense to have the same expectations of humans? Adult men have the ability to think before acting, the ability to control and think of the consequences of their actions. If not, what then is the difference between a man and an animal?

If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred

Yes, that is why no woman is ever raped in her own home, no woman with a hijab has ever been raped, and why there is no such thing as child sexual abuse or incest which often occur in the home, the victim's OWN home, when they are often "safely" in their own rooms. This cleric is such an <banned word filter activated>. Clearly the solution here isn't even the hijab...women just shouldn't go out, shouldn't be seen or heard.

There is no time and no place for rape to be acceptable. No circumstance makes it okay. When we blame the victim and look at it from this idiotic cleric's perspective (which unfortunately is a very typical and common perspective), then we even start to limit who can and cannot be raped and deny that it can happen to anyone, young/old, big/small, disabled/able-bodied, "pretty"/"ugly", mini-skirt or snow-suit clad, whether you're wearing a hijab or not. We can't determine who is "deserving" of such violence.

It's not about the woman, not about how she's dressed. It's about the systemic and structural issues that reinforce how easy it is for men to get away with it (6-month jail sentences for rape??) and how even "religious" authority figures condone it. We'll know we've gotten past the systemic and structural nonsense that blames the victim when we have the first rape or sexual assault case appear in a court when the survivor ISN'T asked what she was wearing. That is yet to happen.

[Guest s133k_s1kh]

FATEH!!

Singhni84 ji i do get the point that RAPE is unacceptable, no women deserves it. The article is about the muslim clerics thinking. No doubt his religious view points were gonna come in at some point or the other.

I have a question here for you..Do you think wearing revealing clothes affects the probability of getting raped ?

If it doesn't then what is it that makes them wear skimpy clothes?

[singhni84]

First and foremost, let's get this out of the way, the most common of common rape myths: Rape is not about sex. So that which the victim is or isn't wearing is irrelevant. Rape is about power and control; issues within the rapist, not issues concerning the victim, nor her wardrobe. If rape were about sex and about revealing clothing, then we would be able to narrow down who is a potential victim of rape. It would make sense that only "sexually attractive" people, especially those wearing revealing clothing would be raped, which is completely absurd.

Secondly, the rapist is the one who's guilty, not the victim/survivor. Why do we always put the victim on trial as if she's the accused?

I have a question here for you..Do you think wearing revealing clothes affects the probability of getting raped ? If it doesn't then what is it that makes them wear skimpy clothes?

I'm not sure what you're asking in your second question. If revealing clothing doesn't affect the probablity of being raped, then why bother wearing revealing clothing?? I'll just leave that for now.

As for the first question, I personally know, work with, and admire MANY women who have been raped or otherwise sexually violated in unthinkable ways. None of them were wearing skimpy clothing at the time of the assault. I have asked them. I would argue that the majority of rape victims are not skimpily-clad at the time of their assaults. Many of the rape victims I know of were assaulted as children/teens/young adults who never even fathomed themselves being seen or used as sexual objects. Think of rape that occurs during times of war. Is it for sex? No. It's power and control. It's political not personal, structural not singular. It's a message being sent along the very lines of power and control. Distant war-time rape isn't that different from rape that occurs each and every day in our own hometowns.

If we stay stuck in notions that tell us that women who wear skimpy clothes get raped, then it becomes harder to prove/believe that a woman who is fully clothed, very respectably clothed, or even HEAVILY/insanely-OVER-clothed can be raped. Ideas like this made it necessary, not that many years ago, for women in Italy I think to have to fight for rape to be accepted as a crime if the victim was wearing jeans at the time. It was seen as impossible, because "only women in revealing clothing get raped", right?

It also puts the blame back onto the victim. Not only does "no mean no", but only yes means yes, so whether she willingly enters the rapist's dwelling, or innocently sits on his bed, even if she has some skin showing, EVEN if she's MARRIED to him, she still has every right to refuse and is still not deserving of being raped because rape is and always will be a vicious and violent act.

Overall, the myths we buy into, believe and perpetuate about rape makes it harder for women to come forward and to get past the guilt and shame that debilitates them. What she's wearing is one of the worst blame-inducing silencing tricks.

As a side note, despite what may otherwise seem to be a rant condoning revealing clothing or making excuses for women who do wear those types of clothing, I'm a Singhnee who wears gurmukhi baana 24/7 and would never imagine wearing anything else, but I know for certain that women are raped when they're not wearing anything even remotely revealing and when they honestly have never even seen themselves in a sexualized manner before and who think of themselves as ugly and undesireable. But I still stick to my point that whether her clothes are revealing or not, it never ever ever gives anyone the right or the excuse to violate her in any circumstance, at any time, at any place.

[curlytopper]

I think he does have a point, but the issue here is the way he made his statement. It is very offensive and insensitive. Women should be respected and when they are harassed, raped or abused is not thier fault even when they wear seductive clothing.

______________________

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[proactive]

I think the guy's just a typical Islamic <banned word filter activated>. Singhni84 has made some very good points which seem to have been lost on the other posters. Singhni84 and other bibis will find the cleric's remarks insulting but then shouldn't we as Sikh men also find his remarks insulting? Basically that <banned word filter activated> is saying that men and that includes we Sikh men might not be able to control ourselves if we see a woman showing too much flesh. This just shows the mentality of the 'religion of peace' followers, when the founder of a religion allows his followers to rape women captured in battle can you expect anything less from his followers? This just shows the huge gap between those that follow the 'religion of peace' and the rest of humanity.

[SSM]

I would say he is right but only if someone can prove to me that women who completely hide themselves in islamic countries have never been raped.

[singhni84]

I can't see how any person with even an ounce of humanity could agree with that view. The problem isn't the way in which the cleric made the statement, nor how insensitive or offensive it is.

The problem is that it is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY wrong, from start to finish, and each and every Sikh, man woman and child should see it as completely and utterly wrong. There simply can NEVER be ANY justification for rape. Never ever ever. No matter how you word it or how sensitively you bring it up. It happens to prostitutes, it happens to nuns; it happens to CHILDREN, it happens to the ELDERLY and the DISABLED. And it happens to regular unsuspecting and unsuspected people you see going about their everyday lives. It can never be acceptable or condoned or justified in ANY case for ANY reason.

Women's bodies have become increasingly sexualized. Simply by virtue of being a woman, we should pretty much expect to be raped and constantly live in fear of being raped because of the fact that our bodies are sexualized to the point of rape being viewed as an acceptable and excused act. Due to the over sexualization of our bodies, whether we are revealing ourselves or not is irrelevant because there is hardly an adult alive today who wouldn't know what a woman's body looks like.

Rape is not a "crime of passion". It is a crime of violence. As I stated earlier, rape is NOT about sex and is thus not about the woman's body or how "seductive" she looks or what she's wearing. It's about a CRIMINAL violently attacking someone in order to assert power.

The "blame the victim" perspective is extremely detrimental and continues to silence victims and also leads to internalization of the guilt and shame that should belong completely to the perpetrator of the violence, not the victim.

[Guest s133k_s1kh]

FATEH!!!

I agree with all that has been said. RAPE is a crime. i totally agree with that and its in no ways justified.

Singhni84 ji i am sorry about the confusion regarding the 2 questions. I still have the same questions. Before you answer these questions keep this in mind that i am not talking on behalf of the culprits. Regarding the clerics comments he is just preaching ISLAM so just disregard them.

1. Do revealing clothes play a role in person being raped ?

2. This question has nothing to do with the first question. WHY WOMEN WEAR CLOTHES THAT BARELY COVER THEM?? This is a general question. What makes them wear SHOTTE SHOTTE KAPRE.

3. You have said RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX. I dont agree with that. You have said its about power and control.

I'll give you a few examples

a.) a rickshaw puller in amritsar rapes a european women at night. i am not makin this up. this is an actual incident that happened a few years back. What does this has to do with POWER and CONTROL ?? It is all about sex. It is the sexual urge of the rickshaw puller to try WHITE MEAT ( sorry for this disrespectful sentence.)

b.) I dunno if you have heard of the KATIA CASE. she was a french national ( i think) and she was raped by grandson of Beant <admin-profanity filter activated> Singh ( Ex Chief Minister of Punjab ). It wasnt about power there. It was all about trying GORI SKIN either by her consent or forcibly. It was all about SEX.

c.) Mughal Invaders during the time of Guru ji's era used to take beautiful women back home. If it was solely about power they could have slaughtred them as they did kill women and children. They took them to satisy their sexual desires.

d.) Phoolan Devi ( THE BANDIT QUEEN ) was raped 17 times. It wasn't about totally about violence. she was stripped naked in front of the whole village. It was about male and upper caste superiority in her case. BUT IT WAS ABOUT SEX TOO. she took revenge from these upper caste ZAMEENDARS and men used to accompany her in all the killings. These men never raped the ZAMEENDAR women. WHY??

If its all about violence, power and control so why just RAPE the women to prove that?

I just don't agree with the few statements you have made in your posts. the questions i have asked are totally unconnected. I would like to know your views on these issues and it'll be of great help if you can address them seprately.

Please bear this in mind I AM NOT SUPPORTING THE RAPISTS IN ANYWAY. RAPE IS AN ATROCIOUS CRIME and VICTIMS NEVER ASK FOR IT.

RAPE IS A WORK OF A SICK MIND and their are factors that trigger RAPE.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni

GUR FATEH!!!

[Guest Papi]

just because grown men have problems controlling themsleves dont mean women should all put veils or something

the problem is not with the women, the problem exists with men who committ such degrading acts. i mean there are people who get "feelings" by looking at kids, or someone's hand.

having said that i also think that everyone, both males and females should dress appropriately. remember there are kids around anywhere you go. we live in a society where from all corners you are bombarded with unrealistics images of women and men, in unrealistic situations. kaam is all over the place, this is kaljug.

kljuig rQu Agin kw kUVu AgY rQvwhu ]1]

kalajug rathh agan kaa koorr agai rathhavaahu ||1||

In the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, fire is the chariot and falsehood the charioteer. ||1||

guru kirpa kare.