Debate with a Muslim

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

J: "He has not come to make things difficult for you, but to make things EASY" [al-Qur'an] "And Allaah is not calling you to something that is burdensome" [al-Qur'an] "And Allaah does not burden a soul more than it can take" [Al-qur'an] "This deen is easy" [Hadeeth] "I have not come but to make things easy for the people" [hadeeth] "What I have forbidden you, abstain. And whatever I have ordered you to do, do as much of it as you can" [hadeeth]

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: you find it easy?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: you know, it was more difficult than you imagine now, before the Guru's revealed their message, trust me, but now I want to ask you, do you find it easy to pray daily at the right time? to wake up on time? to concentrate in each prayer? do you find everything you have been ordered to do easy? and do you know of some Muslims who find it easier than you? it varies, of course

J: Allaah wants us to worship Him alone, pray 5 times a day, give charity (obligatory), fast during the month of ramadaan, and do hajj (if one has the means). "A man asked the Messenger of Allaah: Do you think that if I perfrom the obligatory rayers, fast in Ramadaan, treat as forbidden that which is forbidden and do nothing further, I shall enter Paradise? He said: Yes" [Muslim]

J: We do the above, which are doable by every human being since they are part of actions which are seen visually and one knows one can do them. But that which you call to is part of the mind, and even that is depedent upon shedding the very thing that makes one human, which is more easier? You decide

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: I thought it wasn't definate about who would enter paradise?

S

aihajleen Kaur Khalsa: well, that which is easier is not always correct

J: Yes you're right, but its an indication of Allaah justice

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: in fact, things that are more of a challenge often promise greater rewards

J: Making things easy for His creation...not difficult

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: no fun

J: That goes without saying

J: That is why there is the understanding of acquiring reward and having a higher status in Paradise

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: in fact, paradise and the concept seems equivalent of trying to entice a child with a better toy, nothing else

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: building up guilt, fear, that's all, or greed at the most

J: no fun...its fun to pray 5 times a day so that you're entire life revovles around prayer and the rememberance of your Lord. And its fun to give charity knowing you are receiving good deeds which will help you on the Last Day. And its fun to move on from that as ones spiritual love of Allaah increases and do more superogatory prayers, and then waking up in the night and pray for the last 3rd of the night and call to Allaah and enjoin good and forbid evil. But all this is accessible and becomes easier as one grows from the bear minimum: 5 pillars

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: actually, the Sahibzade of the 10 the Guru (the spiritual Father of the Sikhs) aged 6 and 8 were promised the same 'rewards' in paradise, they chose not to accept, why? they chose the seemingly impossible path

J: greed?

J: Of course we humans need encouragement...

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: 5 times? the Khalsa is instructed to pray with his every breath

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: then you follow Allah to recieve better rewards than everyone else, that's not love

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: bargaining

J: And Allaah has promised those who strive and do good endless rewards, SENSUAL pleasures the likes of which we dont know, with our wives in the hereafter. And then the greatest reward, seeing the face of our creator after which we will

abide in complete serenity for eternity. What is more pleasurable and encouraging than that. Would you want to live this life with everything here knowing that there is nothing to look forward to except...being merged with God which you and I have no idea what that will be like, completely incomprehensible. What motivation is there in this?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: sensual pleasures are greater for you than merging with Vaheguru?

J: Where talking about motivation

J: What motivation is there in that which is incomprehensible?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: no motivation in love, the only motivation there is, is to meet the Beloved, you can compare that to the yearning of the lover, to meet his Beloved, although that is grossly limited, still, it's an example, to understand

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: what if your wives don't want you?

J: Then so be it...there will be no ill hearts in paradise.

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: very limited view, chances are you may get what you hope for, but that is all

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: so women don't have a choice?

J: eh?!

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: what if your wife chooses not to be with you?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: and you wish to be with her?

J: Allaah says that one will have whatever one desires

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: clones?

J: that includes women

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: tell me then, you want your wife, she wants another man, what will you do?

J: Well, why would my wife not want to be with me in the hereafter when she was with me in this world. No Allaah will cause love to be with the husband and wives hearts for each other

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: perhaps because you choose to be with 72 virgins?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: so Allah will control who you love? no free will in Paradise?

J: Although, this question of yours, whether wives will not not want to be with their husbands, I don't know about that

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: then maybe should find out, before you get married

J: There is, but the laws in Parad

ise will be different to the laws on this earth

J: And since the Prophet said that in paradise there is nothing that the eyes have not seen nor the ears heard, not the tongue tasted, nor the heart desired. Meaning it will be unimaginable. Plus the laws will be different. So free-will will be subject to those laws

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: free will is subject to laws?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: I see

J: here we go with the 72 virgins

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: so who gets the 72 virgins?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: well, it's interesting, to me

J: 72 virgins will be for the martyrs as reward, not for any tom and paki. And we;ve been through this before, and you should know this

J: if you want me to resend the email I will

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: yes, and the martyrs have no wives in this world?

J: of course

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: what if they object? or are they not allowed to?

J: but the question is: Will the wives be jealous as they are in this world. Since Allaah said there will be no Hasad, jealousy, evil speech rancourm, etc then the answer is obvious

J: So let me ask you...now

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: so, the men will not be jealous of their wives sleeping around either

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: no, let me finish my questions

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: well?

J: Since Allaah said there will be no Hasad, jealousy, evil speech rancourm, etc then the answer is obvious

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: right, then Allah will have to provide clones

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: otherwise it will be impossible

J: why?

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: unless, you're saying there is no free-will in Paradise

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: which is what you're saying

J: Free-will is subject to the laws of paradise

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: of which you have no knowledge

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: which brings me to my last question

J: We have knowledge Since Allaah said there will be no Hasad, jealousy, evil speech rancourm, etc then the answer is

obvious

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: Meaning it will be unimaginable. <---How can you be motivated for what is unimaginable to you?

J: The delights of this world will be provided in the hereafter, but it will be beyond what we can imagine as sensations from this world. E.g. men & women will not age, the fountains water of that world will be sweeter than honey, etc. These are all known to a certain degree, but they cannot amount to the pleasures we will receive in the hereafter.

J: So effectively, they are unimaginable...

Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa: then we recieve the same pleasure whilst living in the will of our Guru, we get these 'glimpses' of what to come, and we have the same motivation in carrying on as you do, to attain what we find unimaginable

[sher-e-panjab]

if some1 ever starts a topic on islam with me my answer is always 'its ok i dont want parts of my manhood chopped off'

[Guest mehtab]

sher-e-panjab Posted on Dec 27 2003, 07:55 AM

if some1 ever starts a topic on islam with me my answer is always 'its ok i dont want parts of my manhood chopped off' 

lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

saihajleen bhainjee, very well answered

[Akaali]

LOL

Wouldn't mind reading more!!

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

Muslim (12:54:14 PM): So you know you said: : Ego is in reflecting over virtue and sin. So effectively, the prophets, ALL of them, were teaching falsehood because the entire middle-eastern tradition, which has spread over the world, is involved in sensual acts and judging what will lead to good deeds and sin

saihajleenkaur (12:54:33 PM): seems so

saihajleenkaur (12:55:21 PM): we believe they taught as much as they attained to, limited view, or perhaps what they taught wasn't implemented

Muslim (12:58:13 PM): Moreover, the vast majority of all humans, have been, and its pretty safe to say, involved heavily in sensual actions. From the Prophets to the normal folks. It just seems to me that this high coveted state is only restricted for a very small elite (like the sufi elitists) and most of the people won't be able to achieve this state, let alone come near. This for me is burdensome upon the humans because their very nature is to experience the world. And thus they need a means which they can relate to easily with some hope that it is accessible. Your way seems extremely difficult and in my view, unrealistic because of its esoteric nature.

saihajleenkaur (1:01:15 PM): Sikhism does not believe in elitism or asceticism, this is obvious even if you know the basics of Sikhi, in fact, this world is needed to experience God, it is that important, and the age you speak of, when all the Prophets came and preached their message means nothing in the sense of time of Vaheguru, so the older the religion really means nothing, Sikhi was present from the beginning, for those who grasped it, some Sufis may have, and their names are in our Guru, some Bhagats (Hi

ndus) may have, and they are included too, and yes, the way of Sikhi is the most difficult of all, Guru Ji says 'Khaneyo tikhi valon nikki et marag jana' sharper than a sword and thinner than a hair's breadth, is the path of Sikhi

saihajleenkaur (1:02:26 PM): yet Guru Ji says 'haran paran ja ja netar phor', countless Universes, worlds, suns, moons are destroyed and created in the time in takes for you to blink once, so time means nothing to Vaheguru, not in the sense we experience time

saihajleenkaur (1:03:08 PM): we respect, or we have been ordered to respect all faiths and Prophets because although they preached truth, it was limited, and corrupted, however, the good things preached (which we can measure against the Gurbani) is a credit to them

Muslim (1:03:36 PM): But in the end, its about us...not God. We want to know whether God has made the truth easy or burdensome, easily-accessible or seemingly-inaccessible

Muslim (1:04:07 PM): I respect your understanding

saihajleenkaur (1:04:37 PM): it is His will, you submit to the Guru's will, and the Guru will help you, it is very difficult, more so in this day and age yes, but not impossible

Muslim (1:04:46 PM): But it still doesn't solve the idea that this state of inhumaness (ego-less state) seems very difficult to attain, and you have pretty much admitted to this

saihajleenkaur (1:05:42 PM): well, difficult for us, it varies, may not be for someone else, we can't generalise, many Sikhs, actually mostly all of them, are at a higher level than me, so to me it looks impossible, to them it may even seem attainable

Muslim (1:05:55 PM): Well, what about the other countless millions, billions...not everyone has been created upon extreme patience, perserverance and determination as some of these SMALL number of humans whom Allaah may have given this gift. What about them?

saihajleenkaur (1:06:08 PM): countless what?

Muslim (1:06:13 PM): people

saihajleenkaur (1:06

:28 PM): what of them?

Muslim (1:06:33 PM): I dont think many sikhs are even near what you say. They are humans, like us...

saihajleenkaur (1:06:43 PM): then you haven't met the right ones

Muslim (1:07:15 PM): I;m asking you to think of those alive today and in the past who fall under the category of being 'weak'

saihajleenkaur (1:07:34 PM): I dont understand what I have not answered yet, what can't you understand?

Muslim (1:07:49 PM): Not the lilliuptian (tiny) ones who are close to this coveted state of mind

Muslim (1:08:21 PM): I'm asking you to give an explanation of this millions who will not be able to achieve this state because of its extreme difficulty

saihajleenkaur (1:08:25 PM): well, Sikhism doesn't believe in the Buddhist belief that you do not need a Guru, or God to attain Nirvana

saihajleenkaur (1:08:38 PM): The concept of the Guru makes it easier

Muslim (1:08:43 PM): How?

saihajleenkaur (1:09:39 PM): because, we need guidance, and the Guru gives us this, he acts as a map, and we need to learn how read the map, before following it, learning to read it falls under the category of discipline (code of conduct given to the Sikhs)

Muslim (1:10:13 PM): But how is it possible for a person to get rid of all his sensual desires, is it possible for the millions to do this? No

saihajleenkaur (1:11:14 PM): ok, well why is it important to have millions of people who have 'won' the challenge, does God need reassurance? does God need millions worshipping Him to exist?

saihajleenkaur (1:11:23 PM): does he needs His ego satisfied?

saihajleenkaur (1:11:33 PM): it is all His play

Muslim (1:11:55 PM): God isn't subject to virtue or sin or anything else of this world, therefore, He is exempt from Ego

saihajleenkaur (1:12:11 PM): good, we agree

Muslim: (1:13:23 PM): Right...but I'm asking you: Why would good create us weak and expect us to strive for that which, fr

om your own admittance, is difficult to achieve, which actually forces a human to go against his natural state which is to be involved with sensual actions and be constantly aware of good and evil, right and wrong.

saihajleenkaur (1:15:21 PM): it's not easy, how difficult depends on your level of faith, I disagree with you that there are Sikhs out there who find this goal attainable, you will find it impossible, because you are 'conditioned' I will find it difficult, because I am still not learning how to read the map, because I am a beginner, and I break most of the rules daily

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Thanks Rochak Veer Ji, Khalsa Ji, watch this space Dhan Chote Sahibzade!

[Akaali]

Great responses!! Although you missed the concept of 'MAYA' and 'KARMA' to some of his questions..

Is this like a chat discussion, or on msn?

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

That Muslim seems to be brainwashed. Only someone with a very low IQ would accept that in Heaven you get 72 Virgins and a life of pleasure !!.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Its Yahoo Khalsa Bro, can you tell me what you would have said? I really would like to know how else I can answer, maybe you could post your answers, please?

Thanks

Gurfateh

[Guest mehtab]

my manmukh and stupid mind wud wanna add one quarter of a cent

The need for a Guru : even if human attains GOD, he/she will STILL have in mind the EGO that "I ATTAINED GOD"...whereas if one has a Guru, there is no chance of this ego raising its ugly head as one attributes EVERYTHING to his/her Guru (saihajleen bhainjee, i got this from Osho )

If anyone has studied about diamonds, they will know that a natural and unpolished diamond is not very different from an ordinary stone. Also, the pleasure of discovering a diamond is way way greater than just buying it.

SIKHI IS A DIAMOND! ONLY THE FORTUNATE AND BLESSED ONES HAVE THE EYE TO RECOGNIZE IT! AND SINCE IT IS A DIAMOND, WE DON'T GO AROUND SELLING IT! SINCE IT IS A DIAMOND, WE DON'T HAVE SIKH MISSIONARIES SELLING SIKHI LIKE A COMMODITY!

on a side note, i think the world today needs Sikhi badly...if we cannot have missionaries, there shud be another to reach out to ppl and make them aware!

he asks what about the millions who have not been aware of Sikhi : diamonds can be discovered only by those who HAVE THAT EYE!

We want to know whether God has made the truth easy or burdensome, easily-accessible or seemingly-inaccessibleare u investigating GOD? :T:

But how is it possible for a person to get rid of all his sensual desires, is it possible for the millions to do this? No

chardi kala brahmgyanis do achieve this state, and one can actually control the 5 enemies according to one's own will.

Why would good create us weak and expect us to strive for that which, from your own admittance, is difficult to achieve, which actually forces a human to go against his natural state which is to be involved with sensual actions and be constantly aware of good and evil, right and wrong.

because HE made u a human...if HE wanted u to follow ur instincts, u cud be born as an animal...why do humans marry and animals don't? because we are supposed to have civilized relationships...we are supposed to procreate in a civilized way which is thru marriage...not like animals who go around doing it with anyone of the same species and opposite gender. The instincts placed in u are there for u to fight and master them, coz u are human...unlike animals who are slaves to their instincts.

[Mkhalsa]

Kaam is only the first step!! after that comes krodh, lobh, moh and ahankar..

how to control kaam? I am planning on making a post on this soon. Once you put your mind to it and say "I hate this evil bugger get out of my head, it kind of goes away. Oh it fights and goes kicking and screaming, and will bother you, but it will never control your thoughts or be in the front of your mind, if anything it will be a passing thought that dissapears very fast, once we get to this stage one may become very angry as kaam and krodh are linked, so once one fights kaam, one must immediately turn around and begin fighting krodh while at the same time finishing off kaam!

Anyway, the battle story is for another time.