Ghagga Debate

[dasmesh_regiment]

again i know old topic

but ghagga blows out kulbir in 5/6 video at 10mins on the point of praying for children

i am not commeting on any other viewpoints yet!

http://www.panthic.org/news/123/ARTICLE/2816/2006-10-11.html

[Singh132]

To be blunt the only thing that "blows out" is Ghagga's point. Kulbir Singh says that if someone has a problem in life for example they can't have children if the Sangat does Ardaas, that will be effective. Ghagga is trying to say that Ardaas has no real role and that if Ardaas works, why didn't Vedanti and Tohra, who have had high offices in the Panth, have kids? They must have had Ardaas done for them?

What kind of a nonsense point is that? Who knows why they didn't have kids or who did ardaas for them? Guru Sahib is clear that if a Gursikh does Ardaas it will be accepted. Whether they met all the conditions for doing a proper Ardaas, only they can know. Only they can know even if they DID an ardaas for children or not. I doubt Ghagga was present for those Ardaases.

ਜੋ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਦੇਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਸਚੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥੨॥੧੪॥੪੫॥

and also

ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਨਿਕਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਕਹੈ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਤਤਕਾਲ ਹੋਇ ਆਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

There is no doubt that if a Gursikh does Ardaas and that ardaas has all the conditions met (true heart, full faith in Guru Sahib, not wishing harm on others, Sikh is trying to follow Sikhi honestly, etc.) it will be fulfilled. If it will not, then why does Guru Sahib tell Sikhs to do Ardaas whenever they have a problem?

[B4ND4]

^^ I second that. Ghagga wasn't really making sense. On a lighter note it was Shrimaan Inder Singh Ghaaga who said " mein peshab kar ke aauna" or something .

[jss]

Just to weigh in here..cuz i don't think i ever posted in the original ghagga/anti-ghagga threads...

in regards to what dasmesh regiment has said..from the example of the child and whatnot...it would appear as if kulbir singh veerji was wrong...

however...i am someone who fully believes the same thing as kulbir veerji and singh 132 veerji in regards to the power of ardas...watching the video..i feel it wasn't explained as well as it could have been...that said...if you watch it carefully..kulbir veerji doesn't really get a chance to go more in depth into the power of ardas...and how ardas should be done...ghagga just takes his one example...and tries to throw the example in his face...this is the tactic used when someone doesn't want to let another person explain more in depth what's going on...

and interestingly enough, many people were jumping in and not letting either speaker to effectively give their message across..

first off...ardas is a FUNDAMENTAL BASIC concept in sikhi...this is in NO WAY meaning to offend ghagga or anyone of the people that associate with him...but for the LIFE of me...i CANNOT UNDERSTAND...how someone who does parchar and claims to be an expert in terms of sikhi would not know the power of ardas...also...it really shows the lack of research done on the part of ghagga...because there are many sants/bhagats/mahapurshes that have written on simran and ardas...

also..since i know the missionaries think that all people who are called sants are wrong in everything they say...i will name a few people who did not have the sant title next to their names who have experienced and written extensively on the topic of simran and ardas...namely...Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh ji (someone that is respected globally in the sikh community among all jathas/and no jathas), Prof Puran singh ji (a very strong academic, a bigger intellectual than most of the people who make their anti-simran, anti-ardas claims) and Bhai Raghbir Singh 'bir' (also another gursikh who was an fierce intellectual)...i cite these examples only because in reading many of the articles by the sikh missionary people...it seems they put an emphasis on the intellectual analysis of things and call everyone else unparr...

well here are three examples of people who were known as leaders in academics and they too were humble enough and sincere enough and sensitive enough to the divine mysticism of our Guru's Sikhi...

The simple answer to ghagga ji's question regarding why tohra or vedanti's ardas never yeilded children...first off...as much as sangat's ardas is helpful...one must also do ardas for themself...

and for an ardas to effective there are a set of criteria that need to be met...these are actually outlined in very simple yet elegant terms in Bandginama written by Bhai Raghbir singh ji...

here is a passage taken from this great book...

The following conditions are the prerequisites of a fruitful prayer: firm faith

in God's existence, in His power to grant the prayer, and in the soundness,

propriety and efficacy of your prayer; love and reverence for God during prayer;

and a pure, receptive heart...

The second type of Ardas or prayer-that is, individual or personal prayerof

a Sikh may be elaborate, as is the congregational or Sikh prayer, or it may

be short, couched in our own words, according to our individual needs and

feelings. In this case, no special form, prescribed words, special technique

or rhythm are needed. Only the mind must be shaped in a humble mould

answering to the spirit of the sacred verse:

I do not come into the picture, I am nowhere,

I have nothing that I can call mine own.

mai nahi kachh hao nahi

kichh ahe na mora

Sadhna - Bilawal.

Such a prayer poured forth by the soul fies Heavenward. The language of

the soul is not garbed in sonorous, high-pitched phrases. It is a language of

thoughts.

When we learn how to pray correctly, the response is instantaneous. We

have an ecstatic feeling. There is wonder, mixed with delight, at the actual

materialization or fulfillment of the prayer.

Personal or individual prayer cannot possibly be uniform or stereotyped,

for we are in varying stages of spiritual growth.

Pour forth thy heart's prayer to God,

Shed thy shrewdness,

Dedicate thyself, thy mind and body, to God.

jia ki birtha hoi so gur pahi ardas kari

chhodi sianap sagal manu tanu arapi dhari

Guru Arjan - Gujri-//-Gauri.

God cures all pains;

He is the bestower of comforts.

He who prays with faith suffers no ills.

tine tap nivaran hara dukh hanta sukh rasi

ta kau bighan na kou lagai

ja ki prabh agai ardas

Guru Arjan - Todi.

[Guest Dancing Warrior]

The Boss hears everything from the cunningness in our minds to the Ardas we do. The problem I have is it’s become a bartering system

“I will do this, you do that for me”

Somewhat stupid. How can you place the Lord so much more than you then make demands? I don’t get it. So much expectation is emphasised then equally there is much disappointment. But he hears everything, just doesn’t respond, he just ssssoooo cool like that!

[jss]

dancing warrior...

you're actually quite wrong in your last statement...He always responds...it's just sometimes His response isn't the one we expected...gurbani says totally opposite from what you said in your last statement.

[BARBARIAN]

dancing warrior...

you're actually quite wrong in your last statement...He always responds...it's just sometimes His response isn't the one we expected...gurbani says totally opposite from what you said in your last statement.

actually the way warrior explains it i get it the way you do I don’t

[dhanwaheguruji]

What a shame.... both partys are fools..

tapoban are like muslims wanna force their beleifs down peoples throats...there are thousands of arths to gurbani..

gagga stupid for going ther and arguing

and that man on tapoban side his like gurbani ent naam only waheguru simran is ... What the hell

moraks .. its a big world dont be so narrow minded no wonder the panths in a state

[jss]

how are the tapoban singhs like muslims trying to force their beliefs down people's throats?

have they come to your house, your gurdwara telling you how to live? they haven't come to the gurdwara that i go to and forced anyone to believe anything actually...

in fact...i actually admire the fact that they took the time out to do gurmat veechar with ghagga cuz it actually showed that they were trying to be constructive in their approach...instead of just calling akal takt and asking everyone to boycott him...they actually met with him and tried sorting things out...that's actually pretty respectable..

and you talk about being narrowminded...if kulbir singh thinks that naam is only waheguru simran...and you say what the hell...aren't you being narrow minded to dismiss his belief as "what the hell"

[dhanwaheguruji]

yup i agree im a morak for wasting my time on this topic let people do what they want .. get on with your own life