Guru Arjan Dev: The Koran And The Guru's Martyrdom

[Gupt_Singh]

no religious is "false" if it involves the worship of god......but there is just not that much "truth" in the koran

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

We may read what Sree Guru Granth Sahib jee tells us about this:

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=4893&Format=2

Bhagat Kabir; pannaa 1350

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

read the whole Shabad, click on the link.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Deep Singh

I think that we need to read the whole Shabad and the context in which Bhagat Kabirji recited it.

Bhagat Kabirji lived in a time when both Hindus and Muslims were calling each others holy books as false. This they were doing without having even read these books. The Hindus called the Koran false without having read it, the Muslims declared the Vedas as false without having read it or contemplated it's teachings. Bhagat Kabirji is saying that just saying something that is false without reading it or contemplating on it does not make it false, in fact any person commenting on something he hasn't read would be false b

y any stretch of the imagination. BUT then Bhagat Kabirji goes on to criticise the Muslims for killing a chicken and then thinking that by praying and bowing their heads in a mosque takes their sin away. THIS IS IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION TO THE KORAN. The Koran says that killing an animal using the Halal method relieves the Muslim of the sin of killing a living creature. Bhagat Kabirji is criticising the Muslims for doing something that is taught in the Koran. The usual PC reading of this verse is that Bhagat Kabirji is telling people that the Koran and Vedas are not false. But in other Shabads Bhagat Kabirji has said-;

byd kqyb iePqrw BweI idl kw iPkru n jwie

The vedas and Koran are make believe, they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart

SGGS page 727

and

khq kbIr Bly Asvwrw ] byd kqyb qy rhih inrwrw

They make the best riders who remain detached from the Vedas and Koran

SGGS page 329

Bhagat Kabirji also states that killing a chicken only leads to it's soul leaving that body and passing on to another body. This is also a belief that is against the teachings of the Koran.

What Bhagat Kabirji is saying is that if you read and contemplate the Koran and the Vedas and your contemplation leads you to think that they are false then that is fine but do not criticise books that you have not read. Btw Bhagat Kabirji after his own contemplation considered both the Koran and Vedas to contain teachings which were wrong.. or can I say.. false

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

The Quran is false, and we need to stop being so apologetic, this is what makes us so weak. Muslims will not regard the Guru as Truth because the believe Mohammad is the last messenger, the FINAL messenger, do you hope to change that? I can't see them disbelieving their testimony of faith, which includes testifying to the fact that Mohammad is the LAST messenger. So, no I dont expect them to look at our Guru as Truth, because they are closed minded. If we take a stand, and expose their lies, then we can survive, do you think they do not celebrate when they convert people to Islam, using deception? Do you think they choose not to slander other religions in order to achieve this cause? I respect your stance on tolerance Veer Ji, but sometimes the only way to fight fire, is with fire.

Prof Darshan Singh Ji, in his discourse on the Shabad 'GurSikh Dee Eho Nishani' by Bhai Gurdas Ji, tells us that Bhai Sahib used merely one example to describe a Sikh. He tells us a Sikh is like water. The water can be kept cooled, in which case it gives great comfort to those who seek it, water also only settles in lower regions of the ground, i.e. humility. Also, water can be dangerous, when it is heated (challenged in the case of a Sikh, when it comes to defending his religion's honour). So, boiling water can be dangerous, but ultimately it douses the fire, so even while being destructive it is beneficial (Parupkari).

I just pray everyday, having gone through a similar experience, that we dont become so lax and hide under the label of 'tolerance' that we end up like Hindu's, who didn

9;t lift a single Trishul when they were being persecuted at the times of the Gurus, the Sikhs took up that challenged, despite being small numbered, and Hindu's then persecuted US, when their rule was stronger, what was the use of taking up the Trishul when you are already on the winning side, will we be walked over again and again?! No!

Let's redefine the concept of Saint-Soldier, and realise that Soldier is also a concept and part of the life of a Sikh.

Humble apologies if I have offended anyone.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Bibi Saihajleen Kaur Ji

You are so right, if you look at history the cultures that were destroyed by Islam were destroyed because they considered Islam as just another religion and not a threat. If the Spanish hadn't fought so hard to clear their country of the Muslims in the 15th century, spain would have been a Muslim country. Same for France 600 years earlier. Everywhere people are waking up to the fact that Islam is nothing short of a religious fascism.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

i can't believe it, ppl here are actually going around looking down on some1s religion

[

wah wah thodi sikhi

admin close this topic, no need to mis-represent on the web

and u think guru ji would stand ther einsuling another religion for gods sake

[Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Gabroo, it's ok to remain divided between ourselves, but to discuss another religion within the context of Gurbani bothers you? No need to put down a religion which is false anyway. What do you want us to do? Praise the religion for which our Guru's lost their whole families, for which our mothers and sisters were raped?!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

i'm not saying praise, i'm saying let it be!

dont' go around insulting others religion

guru ji never EVER DID SO, AND HE'D BE NOT VERY APPRECIATIVE OF U DOING SO

theres a quote i think

sommin like

"koi bolaye raam raam, koi kudiaye"

plz

[Deep Singh]

Bikramjit Singh jee

thanks for explaining the Shabad to me.

Singh Sahib i think that Bhagat Kabir jee are telling us not to say that Quran or other holy are false, but those people who do bad things considering themselves muslims or followers of other faiths are false. that is what i think. Bhaji we may say that one or other thing in Quran is false, but that would from our point-of-view. Let me say that in a different way jee, is Quran false since it tells to do Halal even tough the justification given behind that is far from what we expect as being logic or certain. jeeo, i believe that Islamic scholars may have their justifications about various concepts in their religious literature, we can not take something out and judge through the teaching OUR religion gives us. Halal i believe was practiced by all the western religion back in time. we do not do it, because Guru Sahib has given us Hukam not to, so us certainly the halal concept become sort-of wrong, but the muslims it is "natural".

so Khalsa jee, forgive me for saying anything wrong, only thing i say is that without having the knowledge 'Gianis' of other faiths might have, we should not say something bad about their literature. Even tough we might have "sound proff" in such cases where feelings are at the highest we should have carm and understanding.....this does not mean that we should let our selves be oppressed....offcourse what muslims did to us was FALSE!! but according to Khalsa principles we should atleast respe

ct their believes. Guru Teg Bahadur jee sacrificed himself for Hindus Brahmans, know idol worship is as much >false< as some concepts of Quran...but still Khalsa principles say respect everyone for what they are, defend everyone even if they are our enemies' sons/daughters.

bhull chuk maaf karna Sangat jee

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Gabroo

From what you are saying we should then discard the verses in Gurbani which criticise other religions ?. What about the verses that say that idol worshippers are fools, that Halal meat is wrong etc etc.

Deep Singh

If you read the Shabad, there is nothing about people doing 'bad things'. Bhagat Kabirji criticises Muslims for doing exactly what the Koran tells them to do.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

yes, but theres no dissing a whole religgion duss points of it...

and here u guys are priding ur self in taking on a whole religion