Guru Gobind Singh Ji's White Baaz

[spamindersingh]

The picture apparently is that of Guru Gobind Singh ji.s White .Baz. or Falcon according to RSS (http://www.sangatsansar.com/writereaddata/...IN%20NANDED.pdf )

Strange that it looks more like an eagle than the Gyr falcon that Guru Ji used to keep.

Is this more RSS pakhand ?

(Please can admin change the topic to read Hazur Sahib.

[THE WARRIOR]

It maybe a descendant of Rustams. As also there are descendants of Guru jis horses Neela and Dilbagh. Maybe others here may know for sure?

[Matheen]

Could be wrong, but I think it was a gift made to Guru Sahib. So they aren't entirely wrong in saying it is Guru Ji's Baaz.

[spamindersingh]

Could be wrong, but I think it was a gift made to Guru Sahib. So they aren't entirely wrong in saying it is Guru Ji's Baaz.

But its an eagle so not a baaz. Plus Guru Jis baaz were Gyr falcons not eagles. Thats like calling a jaguar a tiger etc.

[Jangal Da]

The bird in the picture is certainly odd looking - not an eagle, definetly a falcon and possibly a young female saker.

I have an interest in falconry and myself cannot understand where the idea of Guru's baz being the Gyr falcon came from. I suppose people presume this because they are generally whiter than other raptors and in the West are regarded as falcons used by emperors. However such falcons were not native to that part of Asia - indeed in the Baz Nama Yi Nasiri alludes to this bird being almost mythical in its rarity. In fact there is no great interest in them as far as eastern falconry is concerned. Examples would have had to come from Russia at that time (northwestern modern Russia) and transport over that distance then would have meant a very poor wretched bird if not a dead one, by the end of such a journey.

My personal opinion is that Guruji's baz was a Goshawk. In the east this was regarded as the falcon of Kings. It was a seasonal visitor to the north of the subcontinent and flew in from the Atlas mountains. The Tiquin variety is likely to have been Guruji's hawk and was probably given to him by an Afghan Sikh. Its other name is the Kaffuri (not meaning infidel, but meaning pureness/ white). Examples can seem almost albino. Before 1947 the principle falconer's market for the north of the subcontinent was located at Amritsar (it then moved to Lahore where it is today and hence famous names such as Lahore-bells used in modern falconry around the world). The Sikh maharajas of the Punjab such as Patiala were principle patrons of falconry and it was known that Goshawks were purchased from Amritsar for very high prices. The price of a Kaffuri baz/ Tiquin baz was far higher than any other including the shaheen (peregrine) and shughar (saker) which were popular hunting birds amongst the zamindars of pre-independant Punjab.

[buddasingh]

THe PDF also identifies a picture of an "air india" plane, specifically naming air india personnel and pilots. Anyone know about air india fleets and planes?

On a desperately hopeful note, at least they did not try to suggest a plane was a falcon and the falcon a plane.

[Singhson]

It maybe a descendant of Rustams. As also there are descendants of Guru jis horses Neela and Dilbagh. Maybe others here may know for sure?

Yep. They're kept in the nearby stables

Anyhow, whatever type of bird it is, the fact is, it is MAJESTIC!

[THE WARRIOR]

The bird in the picture is certainly odd looking - not an eagle, definetly a falcon and possibly a young female saker.

I have an interest in falconry and myself cannot understand where the idea of Guru's baz being the Gyr falcon came from. I suppose people presume this because they are generally whiter than other raptors and in the West are regarded as falcons used by emperors. However such falcons were not native to that part of Asia - indeed in the Baz Nama Yi Nasiri alludes to this bird being almost mythical in its rarity. In fact there is no great interest in them as far as eastern falconry is concerned. Examples would have had to come from Russia at that time (northwestern modern Russia) and transport over that distance then would have meant a very poor wretched bird if not a dead one, by the end of such a journey.

My personal opinion is that Guruji's baz was a Goshawk. In the east this was regarded as the falcon of Kings. It was a seasonal visitor to the north of the subcontinent and flew in from the Atlas mountains. The Tiquin variety is likely to have been Guruji's hawk and was probably given to him by an Afghan Sikh. Its other name is the Kaffuri (not meaning infidel, but meaning pureness/ white). Examples can seem almost albino. Before 1947 the principle falconer's market for the north of the subcontinent was located at Amritsar (it then moved to Lahore where it is today and hence famous names such as Lahore-bells used in modern falconry around the world). The Sikh maharajas of the Punjab such as Patiala were principle patrons of falconry and it was known that Goshawks were purchased from Amritsar for very high prices. The price of a Kaffuri baz/ Tiquin baz was far higher than any other including the shaheen (peregrine) and shughar (saker) which were popular hunting birds amongst the zamindars of pre-independant Punjab.

Any chance of some comparative pictures? Also my understanding is that goshawks are easier to train than other raptors am I correct in thinking if a person wanted to start in falconry it’s a good option to start with?

[spamindersingh]

The bird in the picture is certainly odd looking - not an eagle, definetly a falcon and possibly a young female saker.

I have an interest in falconry and myself cannot understand where the idea of Guru's baz being the Gyr falcon came from. I suppose people presume this because they are generally whiter than other raptors and in the West are regarded as falcons used by emperors. However such falcons were not native to that part of Asia - indeed in the Baz Nama Yi Nasiri alludes to this bird being almost mythical in its rarity. In fact there is no great interest in them as far as eastern falconry is concerned. Examples would have had to come from Russia at that time (northwestern modern Russia) and transport over that distance then would have meant a very poor wretched bird if not a dead one, by the end of such a journey.

My personal opinion is that Guruji's baz was a Goshawk. In the east this was regarded as the falcon of Kings. It was a seasonal visitor to the north of the subcontinent and flew in from the Atlas mountains. The Tiquin variety is likely to have been Guruji's hawk and was probably given to him by an Afghan Sikh. Its other name is the Kaffuri (not meaning infidel, but meaning pureness/ white). Examples can seem almost albino. Before 1947 the principle falconer's market for the north of the subcontinent was located at Amritsar (it then moved to Lahore where it is today and hence famous names such as Lahore-bells used in modern falconry around the world). The Sikh maharajas of the Punjab such as Patiala were principle patrons of falconry and it was known that Goshawks were purchased from Amritsar for very high prices. The price of a Kaffuri baz/ Tiquin baz was far higher than any other including the shaheen (peregrine) and shughar (saker) which were popular hunting birds amongst the zamindars of pre-independant Punjab.

The bird market still exists in Amritsar if you look hard enough. You can with the right contacts still get a Shaheen (black or RN), Gos etc etc. Shikra are the cheapest bop you can get at the market.

Birds were imported by the mughals and I have read of historic accounts which mention baaz being imported from europe etc for the mughals. That is where the Gyr stories come from, so this cannot be discounted 100%. Albino Gos are few and far between and the Mughals had many of these birds, this further backs up accounts of birds being imported from europe. Also the Gyr were not used to hunt quarry but kept to admire for their beauty. Another historic account mentions how these birds were vitually worshipped by the mughals.

Any chance of some comparative pictures? Also my understanding is that goshawks are easier to train than other raptors am I correct in thinking if a person wanted to start in falconry it's a good option to start with?

To start with find some local falconers and ask if they can show you the ropes. You will learn a lot from this.

Best bird to start with is probably a Harris Hawk. Also you need to hunt with the bird and for this you need to get access to some land with suitable quarry for your bop.

This is Gyr

Gos :

[spamindersingh]

It maybe a descendant of Rustams. As also there are descendants of Guru jis horses Neela and Dilbagh. Maybe others here may know for sure?

Yep. They're kept in the nearby stables

Anyhow, whatever type of bird it is, the fact is, it is MAJESTIC!

Any chance of posting some pictures of these horses ? I have seen the poor pictures on net news sites but was hoping some sangat member had personal pictures of better quality.

Are these horses directly bred from Neela and Dilbagh ? or given as gifts to Hazur Sahib for Guru Ji ? Guru Ji used to have the finest Arab horses and the pictures of the Hazur Sahib horses I saw were not arabi, not even marwari.

Also I hear there are elephants directly bred from those kept by Guru Ji with some Nihang dals. Anyone know any more about this ?

Falconry is banned in India but some Nihangs still keep them

Singh with Shaheed (RN).