Return of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Alright, you have my curiosity stirred. What could we learn from Gandhi? Please do not take offense at my questions, but I am really curious as to find out what you are talking about.

"I came to the conclusion that the authors of these documents possess a significant bias rather than a significant credibility on the topic....I should not have mentioned him, and will not henceforth until we brothers and sisters are open to the discussion. "

Please don't. I would really like to know what you think we could have learned from Gandhi. Be specific.

"But I cannot accept that this beautiful religion calls on me to take arms before considering the humanity behind a peaceful resolution. Killing is killing whether for duty, profit or fun. "

I think this statement basically sums up your views for the latter part of your arguement. What I am getting from it is that you think that Sikhs today are too eager to kill rather then work peacefully...with regard to the Khalistan issue. If I have interpreted correctly, please provide specific instances where Sikhs killed without regard to their religious teachings.

If our reactions to Gandhi seemed very negative, it is because our research has shown us that he was not a person who committed good actions. He lied repeatedly to the Sikh people and never even treated them as a separate religion. He insulted Guru Gobind Singh Sahib by calling him a "misguided patriot". In one instance when he was walking with his cronies, he queried where one of his cronies was. One person replied that that crony had fallen. Gandhi retorted that a Sikh probably threw a banana peel in his way.

This is not with

standing his racist views. Gandhi, in his earlier days, was a lawyer in Africa. In one instance, he was made to ride the railroad with the Africans of the land. He protested heavily because such high caste as himself should not be made to sit with the Africans, who he regarded an inferior animal. (http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/gandhi.html). So you can understand why the Sangat would have negative feelings towards Gandhi.

The myth that Gandhi somehow single-handedly freed India with non-violence is incorrect. It was not Gandhi's fast unto death that scared off the British, it was the countless Indian populace (of which Sikhs were in no way a small part of) who courted arrest, rotted in jail, went to the gallows and fought the British with every possible means that freed the country. The British were not fools. They knew that if they continued their stay in India, they faced an open revolt against their presence, a revolt that would be bloody and long.

But please, by all means, do present what you think Gandhi could have taught the Sikhs. And give specific details on how this Gandhi was able to free India through his non-violence only.

And Sangat Ji, please let Sahib Ji present his views. Let us not attack him personally because we have bad vibes about Gandhi.

[anon]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Gandhi freed India from the British without firing one bullet, and he fought off the most powerful empire in the world. His words, his actions, his persistence is what freed his country of tyranny.

you're talking as if no one was killed in the struggle to free india. many people died. its not like a sword/gun wasnt lifted during the whole time. and 95% of the casualties were sikhs. but yeah you're right, what they did had nothing to do with the freeing of india. it was all gandhi and his little pen.

about sant jarnail singh jee khalsa bhindranwale....he will be back as soon as dhan dhan siri guru gobind singh sahib jee gives the orders.

and on top of all that, i HIGHLY doubt you are a sikh.

good day to you....

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[OneSikhi]

Taking Guns to My Temple...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh

I am disappointed, once again, my brothers and sisters have evaded the core subject of my original and subsequent messages by making immediate reference to my allusion to Gandhi. Again I apologize. I fear that by making one last clarification regarding my citation of Gandhi will produce even more evasive messages as has been the case so far.

Nonetheless, I stand by my word; it is the ideology of peace I have come to admire. It is the ideology of non-violence I have come to admire. For the western world at least, the mention of Mahatma Gandhi is synonymous with hope, peace and non-violence. He is a reminder to us humans that we can do great things. It is to this image that I was alluding to.

In all honesty, it is irrelevant what this man’s views were on Sikhs, Englishmen, Africans, or on Indians. Who am I to be bothered by these mere human traits? It is the ideals that are associated with Gandhi are what have won my attention; not how he executed them.

Alas, I’m certain even my clarification will produce more obtuse comments. I remind my Veers and Bhans, I have merely made an analogy to ideologies of peace, hope, and non-violence. If this allusion is better understood by the thoughts or images of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in deep meditation, with his mind focused on Truth and peace (Waheguru), so be it; resign my views of Gandhi and please use His image as a model for what I am trying to say.

Isn't killing just killing, regardless if it's against Indians or Sikhs? Why do we justify one, just because it seems to

be for the right reasons? Should there ever be a right reason? If an individual is ready to pick up a gun, shouldn’t that individual be ready enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with the gun? Or if this individual is not ready, should someone else be blamed because they aren’t as enlightened as one should be?

There was a request for specific cases where Sikhs have killed without regard for their religious teachings. I would not dare to link the heinous actions of individuals of the Sikh faith to the religion itself. That is naïve and not justifiable at all. However, The Word of God is prone to our misinterpretation. Therefore, there have been ‘Sikhs’, just as there are ‘Hindus’, ‘Christians’, and ‘Muslims’, who act in the name of God yet do not fully consider the teachings of their faith. I will go farther into acts committed by Sikhs; I want you to understand that I am in no way criticizing my religion:

In the early 1980s, a Sikh, Kuldip Singh Samra, opened fire in a Toronto court room, killing one man and paralyzing another. In 1986, four Sikhs tried to assassinate a visiting state minister from the Punjab. It was a Sikh, too, who was convicted of making a bomb planted on a flight to Tokyo, which killed two baggage handlers at Narita Airport. Only by luck was a tragedy avoided similar to the one that downed an aircraft off the coast of Ireland, in which 329 people were killed. There were children on this flight. There were Sikhs on this flight. In 1988, Tara Singh Hayer, a moderate Sikh journalist in Vancouver was shot and wounded by a radical Sikh gunman. In November, 1998, he was murdered. A Sikh murdered nine people at a wedding in Vernon, BC, Canada, the main victim being his estranged wife. How many Gurudwaras have been stages of violent fights among our own brethren in the name of God? Is fighting justifiable in a Gurudwara? Why are guns taken to my temple? I state again that these are people who are not attuned to their religion, but Guru Gobind Singh gave us our na

mes so that we couldn’t merely escape our actions. We are tied to our names, which are tied to our religious history. These are but a few examples of Sikhs that side with violent tactics without considering the beautiful teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

My dear brothers and sisters, Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught us to question every aspect of our spirituality. His quest was the search for the Truth. I have made His model the path of my life. “O Guru!”, I pray, “help me find the voice of individuality, a voice that will lead me to your gaze and that of the Truth!”. It is not common that some individuals, Waheguru save them, tend to associate anyone who looks and behaves differently with illegal or immoral, even sacrilegious activity. To those who assume I am not Sikhi, I hold no anger towards you. I have simply a waning sympathy for you who cast judgment on me like the oppressors that you are against. This is a place to exchange ideas, not insults. For what is a discussion forum without a discussion? I did not register to contribute to fame-seeking individuals and opportunists looking to fuel their egos or to get noticed for their self-righteous finger-pointing. I am far from perfect, but my eyes are set on the perfection of Waheguru’s Truth.

I recant His name, “Waheguru,” for all the people of the world. This is because we are all His children, Sikhi. Right now, Sikhs are thinking of how they can prevent things like war. How do you prevent AIDS, depression, car crashes? We all have some degree of personal freedom, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility. You can always escape a hell by not believing in it, but you cannot escape death and you cannot escape prison.

I have made it my mission to examine the world we live in today, and I've always tried to show people that many times the demon we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. For me, I fear, the end of the world will not come one day out of the blue - its bee

n happening every day for a long time. We as Sikhs - and I am elucidating to all people around the world of any faith of any creed, sex, or origin - must begin to embrace peace.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Kee Fateh

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

If it is purely peaceful non-violence with altruistic motivations you wish to convey, then please refer to the Akalis in the Gurudwara Movement in the 1920s. After years of having Gurudwaras in the hands of the Mahants, which were kept there by British support, the Akalis launched a peaceful morcha against the British. The British would charge the Sikhs with lathis and the Sikhs would not utter a single word except "Waheguru". Thousands went to jail, thousands were injured, until the Gurudwaras were finally surrendered to the Sikhs by the British, who then proceeded to evict the corrupt Mahants. (Pity what the Akalis have become).

THAT is an example of a non-violent movement (and a very small paraphrasing...history books go into much more detail).

"In the early 1980s, a Sikh, Kuldip Singh Samra...Is fighting justifiable in a Gurudwara?"

I see that you are/have read Soft Target or some other book dealing with Canada's Sikh history in the 1980s. I also respect that you are not generalizing to the Sikhs in general. One thing that you should also be able to glean from the book is that there were Indian agents everywhere at the time. I make no decision on the people you have pointed out (not All-Knowing...only Almighty's status), but realize that many people who were being labeled "Sikhs" who were committing heinous at the time were in fact government agents there to specifically cause trouble in the Sikh community and humiliate them in Canada's eyes. Yes, there are some Sikhs who have committed bad acts and that is deplorable. But, as you have stated, it cannot be generalized to the entire Panth.

"Isn't killing just kil

ling, regardless if it's against Indians or Sikhs? Why do we justify one, just because it seems to be for the right reasons? Should there ever be a right reason? If an individual is ready to pick up a gun, shouldn’t that individual be ready enough to be held personally responsible for what he does with the gun? Or if this individual is not ready, should someone else be blamed because they aren’t as enlightened as one should be?"

The Guru Sahiban picked up Shastars (yes, including guns). Guru Hargobind Sahib stated that when Pyaar (love) and vichaar (discussion) fail, then it time for the talwaar (sword). The Sikhs lived in peace with the Indian populace for a long time and considered them to be their brothers and sisters. After 1984, the majority of actions that were taken against others by Sikhs were to bring to justice those who perpetrated crimes and were declared innocent by the court systems. They took full responsibility for their actions and never said, “I did not do that”.

"How do you prevent AIDS, depression, car crashes? We all have some degree of personal freedom, but with that freedom there is a burden of personal responsibility."

Regardless of what is being done to the Sikh community, it still has made serving the people its priority. Some organizations offer legal advice, some have health fairs, and some lobby against government laws that deprive the rights of all minorities. This is a service that Sikhs are still performing. Unfortunately in the countries outside of India, many Sikhs are entrenched in securing their own rights from governments that do not understand fully what a Sikh is. This is essential as well and an effort that requires resources of the Panth too, and where a lot of effort is concentrated on right now.

[OneSikhi]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Thank you to all of you for your contributions to this discussion. I am always intrigued by your responses and I hope to continue raising healthy debate amongst my brothers and sisters.

However, I would like to see more people join in the discussion and bring resolution to my questions that still find themselves without answers. Of course, I do realize that some questions do not have answers and these are the ones that burn in my mind all the time.

We as Sikhs can not ignore that the acts of some ‘Sikhs’ have given the rest of the Panth a tainted image. Nor can we easily dismiss these acts as tactics of the Indian agency. Whereas the latter may be true for many of my brothers and sisters, I feel if we treat such aggressors as Sikhs, and teach others of their misdeeds; it will be a far better path to discipline in our faith as opposed to blaming others. Even if it is proven that these individuals were Indian agents to taint the Sikh name, all Sikhs need to be educated about these individuals and their crimes as if they were Sikhs. We must teach ourselves the virtues of our religion and discuss them so that people don't go out in the Name of God and commit an atrocity. We must make sure that every God faring Sikh follows this.

Like the Akalis in the 1920’s I feel that non-violence has not yet been an exhausted cause, simply for the reason that there are still people out there making a difference using these ideals, i.e. Amnesty groups and Sikh youth groups around the world. I am proud of what we as a people have accomplished. But it would be selfish of Sikhs to ignore the things tha

t we can not be proud of. We face the same cultural problems as many other faiths. To this day there is still a caste system in our culture, for instance, that is in direct contradiction to the Guru’s teachings. We must prove ourselves worthy of our religion by upholding all the virtues it presents us with before we go out and fight.

Through the verses of the Great Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we must find ourselves as a people of peace and service. There are many youths out there that do not understand that peace is the basis of our religion. In many places our warriorship is glorified without reverence for the times when we had no swords to fight with. We cannot state otherwise without some degree of doubt. We must honor our warriorship by recognizing that it isn’t necessary until all avenues of action are taken and exercised to the greatest extent first. This is what we as Sikhs must uncover before we take the path to war.

My brothers and sisters always keep in mind that although thought without action is futile, action without thought is fatal.

Thank you again for being patient with me. I look forward to new discussions and new posts from all of you.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest SikhForLife]

in 1978 it was THEY who killed our people.. non violence my buttocks... it was THEY the nirankaris and the Police backed by Indira Gandhi who killed many Sikhs outside of Golden Temple . ..

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"We as Sikhs can not ignore that the acts of some ‘Sikhs’ have given the rest of the Panth a tainted image. Nor can we easily dismiss these acts as tactics of the Indian agency. Whereas the latter may be true for many of my brothers and sisters, I feel if we treat such aggressors as Sikhs, and teach others of their misdeeds;...We must teach ourselves the virtues of our religion and discuss them so that people don't go out in the Name of God and commit an atrocity. "

You seem almost to be asserting that Sikhs are glorifying individuals who killed individuals without regard to their religions ideals. Could you name me those individuals which the Panth has glorified in such a way? The Sikh Panth has held in high esteem those who brought justice to the Sikh Panth, not to murderers. As per teaching about the virtues of the religion, that is what Katha and Gurbani Kirtan is all about. The Shaheeds in Sikhism who engaged in physical battles/fights/skirmishes do have their bravery recounted, but along with it are also stories of how the Shaheed Sahib was attahed to Gurbani and worship of the Almighty, and how before every work, they would do Ardaas.

"Like the Akalis in the 1920’s I feel that non-violence has not yet been an exhausted cause, simply for the reason that there are still people out there making a difference using these ideals, i.e. Amnesty groups and Sikh youth groups around the world. I am proud of what we as a people have accomplished. But it would be selfish of Sikhs to ignore the things that we can not be proud of. We face the same cultural problems as many other faiths. To this day there is still a caste system in our culture, for instance, that

is in direct contradiction to the Guru’s teachings. We must prove ourselves worthy of our religion by upholding all the virtues it presents us with before we go out and fight. "

Hence SikhForLife Sahib's statement. When an individual or group is physically attacking you, as a Sikh, you can and should defend yourself in the same manner. This is what the majority of the Shaheeds did post-1984. If the courts refuse to give you justice, you must administer it yourself, as Guru Gobind Singh Ji charged Banda Singh Bahadur to do against the Governor of Sirhind, an example that Sikhs followed in delivering many criminals to justice. Peace is all good, but not when the enemy is beating you, shooting at you or setting your house on fire. The majority of time post-1984 was spent bringing various individuals who committed crimes against Sikhs to justice.

"There are many youths out there that do not understand that peace is the basis of our religion. In many places our warriorship is glorified without reverence for the times when we had no swords to fight with. We cannot state otherwise without some degree of doubt. We must honor our warriorship by recognizing that it isn’t necessary until all avenues of action are taken and exercised to the greatest extent first. "

As per Sikhs thinking that their history is all about violence and warriorship. A Sikhs with the most rudimentary understanding will know that Sikhism is a religion that seeks the Almighty, not a warrior division fit only for soldiery. Yes, stories of bravery are often told in Gurudwaras, but they are always given with how immersed the individual was in Gurbani/Naam. It has never been a problem within Sikhs knowing that they are Saint-Soldiers, with the Saint aspect having the dominance, it has been people of other faiths (many of them Indians, who believe that Sikhism is all about the sword).

"My brothers and sisters always keep in mind that although thought without action is futile, action without thought is fatal. "

>

Everyone agrees with you there...including the Shaheeds.

[Bhullar]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Remember The Sikh Shaheeds!

[Bhullar]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Wait a minute. Didn't we demand our nation peacefully? Who attacked first? The indian Govmnt.

Sant ji was a great man, His belifs were great and some of you call him bad becuase he led Sikhs to something that we deserve, our own land, where we may pary without the fear of being swallowed by the Indian majority.

Ghandi was an <banned word filter activated>, all he did was make a march to the sea to steal salt. Such a great man. HAHAH

Sant ji is dead, sadly enough. He died fighting for our rights. Guru ji said "if all other means are unavodible, it is respectful to raise the sword" I agree, thats what we did

What right did the Indian govmt have to attack our holy golden temple? What justice have we recived? What justice from "India great democracy"??

if ghandi freed that "democracy" i am disgraced. When my family says" I love India" I get mad and tell them "you love Punjab, You love your land, you love khalsa. Not India"

[anon]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

sant jarnail singh jee khalsa bhindranwale never once asked for khalistan. but what he did say was that they wont make the same mistake as was made in '47. if offered, they will accept. and he also said the day the indian govt steps foot into darbar sahib complex, the foundation of khalistan will be layed. since the govt has done that, the foundation has been layed and sant jee will return to make khalistan.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!