Khalistan & India

[Hazoor]

I’ve been following a number of threads on this board of which most discuss how Sikh’s should not support India or anything to do with India, for example the cricket team etc.

I personally have nothing against the idea/concept of Khalistan but there are some niggles that tend to surface whenever I read threads condemning anyone who does anything in support of India.

The points I’m going to make are in no particular order but as mentioned niggles that arise when reading some topics.

If we were to get ‘Khalistan’, who would run/have control? I ask this because in the the past 20 years or so, I have come across so many stories of Gurdwara politics and have seen how many cities have gone from having 1 Gurdwara Sahib to numerous Gurdwara Sahibs simply because people fell out and so organisations split and formed another Gurdwara. We also see not only in the UK but worldwide how ‘committees’ argue, fight and sometimes get violet all in the name of running a Gurdwara Sahib. Who, or rather which group of people will run the country? Who decides?

Where will Khalistan claim its land? There are Gurdwara Sahibs and places of historical importance across India, how will it be decided where this new country is to be placed?

There is a lot of hate towards India/Indians, I don’t deny the fact that Sikhs have been wronged in various ways by the Government and the regular man, but can the whole of India, millions and millions be painted by the same brush? Maybe this is a naïve thing to say, but Sikhs were not treated too nicely when the British were trying to take over India, and once they had a hold over India, yet as thousands of Sikhs in this country (UK) we don’t seem to resent them as strongly, even though we still face many challenges in this country (Dastar/Kakar issues etc) today.

My dad once mentioned an MP from Wolverhampton who tried to start a movement against Asians many moons ago, this is around the time when the National Front were fairly strong and had a fair few followers who would beat up anyone who looked asian etc. Does this mean out of protest I should not support Wolverhampton football club and nor should any other Asian as there are still people in the area who are anti Asian? I ask this because the same is being asked of everyone who is a Sikh and originates from India, it is expected by various people that they do not support the India cricket team.

In regards to Khalistan, why is it that our Guru Sahibs did not establish a Sikh home land? As mentioned earlier, there are places related to our history and Guru Sahibs dotted around India, and I personally have never hated ‘India’, as it’s the land of my Guru’s. Yes, Pakistan now has a number of Gurdwara Sahibs following partition but ultimately the land on which the Gurdwara’s were built was originally India. The quote ‘jithe jaye behe mera satguru so than suhava ram raje’ is what India is about for me, so it does throw me when I read so much that is anti India, when it’s some of the people of India we have a problem with.

Please do not turn this thread into an argument, I am merely stating my views, these are niggles that have arisen in my mind recently.

Feel free to educate me if I am blatantly wrong or have missed something obvious but let’s keep it educational please J

[SevadaarEKhalsa]

If we were to get 'Khalistan', who would run/have control? I ask this because in the the past 20 years or so, I have come across so many stories of Gurdwara politics and have seen how many cities have gone from having 1 Gurdwara Sahib to numerous Gurdwara Sahibs simply because people fell out and so organisations split and formed another Gurdwara. We also see not only in the UK but worldwide how 'committees' argue, fight and sometimes get violet all in the name of running a Gurdwara Sahib. Who, or rather which group of people will run the country? Who decides?

Please note that Khalistan won't be achieved till we have these type of Sikhs (the one you mentioned). It will be when there are Sikhs with uchey-suchey jeevan and high thinking. Then these matters won't be important.

India didn't have a constitution up till 1952, while it was independant from 1947 onwards.

On a side note, Panj Pyare could be given power, but that is another discussion.

Where will Khalistan claim its land? There are Gurdwara Sahibs and places of historical importance across India, how will it be decided where this new country is to be placed?

Punjab, Haryana, Himachal, Jammu and parts of Uttarakhand/Rajasthan/Gujrat.

There is a lot of hate towards India/Indians, I don't deny the fact that Sikhs have been wronged in various ways by the Government and the regular man, but can the whole of India, millions and millions be painted by the same brush? Maybe this is a naïve thing to say, but Sikhs were not treated too nicely when the British were trying to take over India, and once they had a hold over India, yet as thousands of Sikhs in this country (UK) we don't seem to resent them as strongly, even though we still face many challenges in this country (Dastar/Kakar issues etc) today.

We were offered our lands by the British, but corrupt politicians sided with India. So our opponent shifted from the British to the current corrupt state of India.

We don't paint all Indians with the same brush, we just want to be seperated after all what happened to us 1947 onwards.

Maybe you don't know, but Amritsar Sahib was not only attacked in 1984, but also in 1955 (where one praying Sikh was killed), 1986 (Operation Black Thunder) and 1988 (Operation Black Thunder II).

My dad once mentioned an MP from Wolverhampton who tried to start a movement against Asians many moons ago, this is around the time when the National Front were fairly strong and had a fair few followers who would beat up anyone who looked asian etc. Does this mean out of protest I should not support Wolverhampton football club and nor should any other Asian as there are still people in the area who are anti Asian? I ask this because the same is being asked of everyone who is a Sikh and originates from India, it is expected by various people that they do not support the India cricket team.

There is a huge difference between a few racist attacks and massacres of 250,000 people, burning of hundreds of Gurdwaras, rapes of our sisters/mothers. You can't compare both situations.

In regards to Khalistan, why is it that our Guru Sahibs did not establish a Sikh home land? As mentioned earlier, there are places related to our history and Guru Sahibs dotted around India, and I personally have never hated 'India', as it's the land of my Guru's. Yes, Pakistan now has a number of Gurdwara Sahibs following partition but ultimately the land on which the Gurdwara's were built was originally India. The quote 'jithe jaye behe mera satguru so than suhava ram raje' is what India is about for me, so it does throw me when I read so much that is anti India, when it's some of the people of India we have a problem with.

I. Guru Gobind Singh sent Banda Singh Bahadur to Punjab along with 5 Singhs and 5 Arrows to punish Wazir Khan, other Dushts and establish Khalsa Raj.

II. Guru Gobind Singh said 'Raj Karega Khalsa' and 'Raj Bina Na Dharam Chaley Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalley Malley Hain'.

III. Satguru can't be limited to any piece of land, 'ghat ghat main har ju basey, santan kaho pukaar' (Salok Mahalla 9)

[Hazoor]

Please note that Khalistan won't be achieved till we have these type of Sikhs (the one you mentioned). It will be when there are Sikhs with uchey-suchey jeevan and high thinking. Then these matters won't be important.

India didn't have a constitution up till 1952, while it was independant from 1947 onwards.

On a side note, Panj Pyare could be given power, but that is another discussion.

Fair enough.

Punjab, Haryana, Himachal, Jammu and parts of Uttarakhand/Rajasthan/Gujrat.

Why would 'India' give up these areas? Also, why these areas in particular? (not arguing with you, just wondering why..)

We were offered our lands by the British, but corrupt politicians sided with India. So our opponent shifted from the British to the current corrupt state of India.

We don't paint all Indians with the same brush, we just want to be seperated after all what happened to us 1947 onwards.

Maybe you don't know, but Amritsar Sahib was not only attacked in 1984, but also in 1955 (where one praying Sikh was killed), 1986 (Operation Black Thunder) and 1988 (Operation Black Thunder II).

Thats my 'point, why hate a country and not the people who have done us wrong, why hate the sports team etc, doing that is painting all with one brush. I totally appreciate the need to be separate and agree.

There is a huge difference between a few racist attacks and massacres of 250,000 people, burning of hundreds of Gurdwaras, rapes of our sisters/mothers. You can't compare both situations.

I apologise if I came across as comparing as that was not my intention, I merely gave an example. What I mean is why point blank hate millions and everything to do with a nation based on the actions of some. People of India have done us wrong, but why criticise people for supporting the sports people of that nation? Again it seems like painting all with one brush thats all.

I. Guru Gobind Singh sent Banda Singh Bahadur to Punjab along with 5 Singhs and 5 Arrows to punish Wazir Khan, other Dushts and establish Khalsa Raj.

II. Guru Gobind Singh said 'Raj Karega Khalsa' and 'Raj Bina Na Dharam Chaley Hain, Dharam Bina Sab Dalley Malley Hain'.

III. Satguru can't be limited to any piece of land, 'ghat ghat main har ju basey, santan kaho pukaar' (Salok Mahalla 9)

Once again, fair enough

[JasSinghKhalsa]

Why would 'India' give up these areas? Also, why these areas in particular? (not arguing with you, just wondering why..)

India will never give. Freedom is never Given by the Opressor, Freedom is always fought for and taken.

In 1900's, the same question might had been "Why will British leave India"?

Why will Mubarak give freedom to Egyptians? Why will Gaddafi give freedom to Libyans?

[clarity]

Here we go again plant doubt into the minds of the Sikhs lets register a new profile and assume that every Sikh on this board is stupid.

Chechnya independance

Cuban Independance

Libya Independance

Egypt independance and justice

Yugoslavia independance

South Korea Independance

Not to mention the countless amounts of revolutions across the world

Go and do something more productive with your time like how your goona deal with the Millions of cheesed of muslims who are going to out populate the evil hindu regime

[SevadaarEKhalsa]

Again Guru Gobind Singh said: 'Koi Kissi Ko Raj Na Deh Hain, Jo Leh Hain, So Nij Bal Se Leh Hain' (Nobody gives one a kingdom, you have to take it with your own strength).

Those areas are historically linked to Sikhs.

BTW, we can't claim from West Punjab from Pakistan since that was decided in 1947, we can only ask OUR share with which we went into India.

If we are 'fighting' against a country for freedom, you don't expect us to cheer for their games. Its as if a (German) Jew was cheering for a match by Nazi Germany.

[Hazoor]

Again Guru Gobind Singh said: 'Koi Kissi Ko Raj Na Deh Hain, Jo Leh Hain, So Nij Bal Se Leh Hain' (Nobody gives one a kingdom, you have to take it with your own strength).

Those areas are historically linked to Sikhs.

BTW, we can't claim from West Punjab from Pakistan since that was decided in 1947, we can only ask OUR share with which we went into India.

If we are 'fighting' against a country for freedom, you don't expect us to cheer for their games. Its as if a (German) Jew was cheering for a match by Nazi Germany.

That's a fantastic way of putting it and it makes sense now, thanks.

[Hazoor]

Here we go again plant doubt into the minds of the Sikhs lets register a new profile and assume that every Sikh on this board is stupid.

Chechnya independance

Cuban Independance

Libya Independance

Egypt independance and justice

Yugoslavia independance

South Korea Independance

Not to mention the countless amounts of revolutions across the world

Go and do something more productive with your time like how your goona deal with the Millions of cheesed of muslims who are going to out populate the evil hindu regime

Clarity praava let me say something simple to you; 'what you know about me can change your opinion of me, what you assume about me can change you opinion beyond belief but it won't make it true'.

I'm new to posting on this board hence the new id, and I ask questions as I have questions, if I don't ask how do I learn? Just because I have asked does not mean I am attacking and nor am I insinuating that (and I quote) every Sikh on this board is stupid. If you don't mind me saying it is rather childish of you to make outlandish statements without any fact or reason. I clearly stated in the opening post of this thread that I simply have some niggles in my mind that I wanted to address and SevadaaeEKhalsa has given some valid points that have negated many of the points that I originally made.

Clarity, there is no need to go straight on the attack whenever someone asks a question, questions are posed in order to get information in reply, if I don't ask them I won't learn will I?

Also, just so you know (not that you care or it matters) I was born into a Sikh family and was blessed with Maharaj's kirpa at the age of 13 when my thirst for Sikhi first started, I was then blessed with Amrit at the age of 15. I have spent over 18 years (I'm now in my late 20's) attending and organising Sikh camps. I ended up taking a step back from these activities when I went into full time work and as I'm currently on maternity leave, I've now got some free time which has allowed me to visit this discussion forum.

Sikhi is my life but the politics involved has never appealed to me, now as I venture into that area I get accused of being an Hindu with ulterior motives, I have to say it would be quite amusing except for the fact that its quite sad. Next time maybe I should just pick up a book instead of airing how I feel and requesting calrification.

[gurdssingh]

Here we go again plant doubt into the minds of the Sikhs lets register a new profile and assume that every Sikh on this board is stupid.

Chechnya independance

Cuban Independance

Libya Independance

Egypt independance and justice

Yugoslavia independance

South Korea Independance

Not to mention the countless amounts of revolutions across the world

Go and do something more productive with your time like how your goona deal with the Millions of cheesed of muslims who are going to out populate the evil hindu regime

Paaji, I think you need to double check, as your knowledge about the countries you state and wanting independance from an occuppied force is not correct. Only one (heres a clue the first one), wants independance from an occupying force. (i.e Russia).

Some of the countries you mention want regime change, not independence.

One country you state has not existed since late 90's, it was broken up into various countries, based on ethnicity. Example would be states in India being broken into various countries.

Also another country you mention I think your confussed about North and South.

I may be wrong but one of the countries you mentioned may have communist structure but is being run efficently and there is not a lot of hate of the governement, only some in the west dont like them.

Apart from Chechnya, better examples would have been Palestine and Kashmir.

[SarabhaPanjab]

It's about reclaiming the holy land. The Khalsa has already ruled.

The Khalsa raaj showed how religions and cultures were at peace. How Sehjdharis and Amritdharis didnt friction. The hierarchy even had non-Sikhs, i.e. Sufi as defense secretary. The Khalsa raaj showed how literature, the arts, architecture flourished.. opposed to common belief that Khalsa raaj will be full of hardline, intolerant Sikhs.

The declaration of Khalsa raaj was given by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj ji themselfs. Guru Sahib ordered Bandha Singh Bahadhaur to conquer Punjab and ordered all Sikhs to Join him.

The Order for Sikhs to Rule Punjab came directly from Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj, and the Raaj was established by those most loyal to Guru Sahib.

Khalistan was given to us by our guru.. we lost it, we were unable to hang on to it. We got too carried away with British loyalty's then being buddies with the Hindus. its OUR fault.

It's now our job to reclaim the holy Land.

To all that doubt that Khalistan can exist peacefully, just read our history, why cant we do that again??

As for the argument "we can not run our Gurdwaras peacefully, how can we run a country" 90% of these problems are caused by dehli loyalists, congressis and agents. the troublemakers, the traitors, the dehdaris, the rapist the RSS sponsored scum, they will have no delhi supporting them, they will run for their lives.

As for Sikh politicians, imagine all conservatives and labour MPs tragically die today in some kind of accident. This country's politics and political system will be sent back 20 years. That has happened to us. Shaheed Jaswant Singh Kalra would have been our home secretary. Shaheed Subaig Singh would have been Defense secretary, Shaheed Amrik Singh would have been education secretary. We have had the best killed off, but without dehli's interfering, we can easily rebuild that. We are the greatest race on the planet.