Eyewitness Account of Vaisakhi 1699

[VanHelsingh]

On the other hand we Sikhs do have a habit of talking-down our history as well as the figures to be found in our pantheon of greats, almost as if we're embarrassed they were capable of great feats on the basis of such events being improbably unbelievable by the likes of us dodgy folk. If the likes of Mohammed can visit heaven on a flying horse, and Jesus can rise from the dead after a few days, then going by the greatness exhibited by our Gurus according to their compositions in Gurbani I don't find it difficult to believe they were equally a cut-above Man in other respects.

[HSD2]

On the other hand we Sikhs do have a habit of talking-down our history as well as the figures to be found in our pantheon of greats, almost as if we're embarrassed they were capable of great feats on the basis of such events being improbably unbelievable by the likes of us dodgy folk. If the likes of Mohammed can visit heaven on a flying horse, and Jesus can rise from the dead after a few days, then going by the greatness exhibited by our Gurus according to their compositions in Gurbani I don't find it difficult to believe they were equally a cut-above Man in other respects.

Or we feel the need to make up stuff to match the nonsense of other religions is the other way of looking at it.

[VanHelsingh]

Or we feel the need to make up stuff to match the nonsense of other religions is the other way of looking at it.

There is an element of the above I suppose, i.e. early Sikh scholars and scribes not wishing Sikhi to be left behind in the 'miracle' stakes. But then where does it end? You could end up not believing anything that occured in Sikh history just because it isn't plausible to our minds.

I always look at it in the following way: our Guru Sahibs ultimate concern was with (and is) the Truth in all respects regardless of whether we agree or not. For learned parchaaraks and kathavachaks to preach to the sangat - for many hundreds of years - about things that didn't happen just because they inflate the reputations and achievements of the Sikh faith would not be acceptable. and wouldn't be allowed to continue for very long if such occurences were not the absolute Truth. I believe the cosmic order would put an end to any masaleh and adornments added to what actually occured if such saakhis weren't true. Of course to reach such a conclusion there needs to be a slight leap of faith, but then that's what religion is about I suppose.

There is also a danger of going the other way completely into mysticism and miracles so that the day-to-day lives of the Gurus and their respective achievements on a social, political and human level are overlooked in favour of the fantastic and magical. Eventually I think this aspect of Sikhi is what is dissuading some of the more pragmatic, dare I say 'realist' type of individuals from devoting themselves to the faith. These aren't atheists or anything of the sort, but Sikhs growing up in an environment where facts and education have been given paramount importance over myths. Basically they can't relate to tales of Gods, prophets, and the like, so they switch-off and proceed to group Sikhi in with all the other faiths that have similar accounts of miraculous events, etc. Personally I think that would be a huge injustice to Sikhi and its doctrines, especially considering my earlier post where I made the point of highlighting how young our faith is, and we occasionally behave as if it's thousands of years old, as opposed to the main bulk of our history still being relatively recent in terms of what was occuring in other parts of the world at the time.

[HSD2]

I hear you brother. But there are those who want more and more details for these events, rather than accepting the facts at face value. And there are those who will oblige them and give them what they want even though to the critical eye it doesnt come together to fit right. LIke stitching heads back on to bodies. I'm not doubting that they gave their lives, but that feels so tacky. A lot of Sikhs who put emphasis on the resurrection part rather than the sacrifice, acceptance, duty and perseverance parts seem to only do it so they can say 'You have one resurrection in your faith? Bah, we have five!' Who cares about other religions? Screw them. I'd rather we stayed grounded in what we know than jumping into the same theological messes their clerics and holy men get in to satisfy their own masses.

[VanHelsingh]

I hear you brother. But there are those who want more and more details for these events, rather than accepting the facts at face value. And there are those who will oblige them and give them what they want even though to the critical eye it doesnt come together to fit right. LIke stitching heads back on to bodies. I'm not doubting that they gave their lives, but that feels so tacky. A lot of Sikhs who put emphasis on the resurrection part rather than the sacrifice, acceptance, duty and perseverance parts seem to only do it so they can say 'You have one resurrection in your faith? Bah, we have five!' Who cares about other religions? Screw them. I'd rather we stayed grounded in what we know than jumping into the same theological messes their clerics and holy men get in to satisfy their own masses.

It's certainly a sensitive area that's for sure. There must be so many permutations of Sikhs according to their beliefs, as well as what they know and believe outside of the religion, and how they bring those concepts to assist them in the understanding of Sikh history and theology.

I personally wouldn't want to go the way of complete doubt and incredulity meaning one's shardaa for Guru Sahib goes out the window, Equally I'm also not one to encourage embellishments and bells and whistles that, whilst serving to increase the standing of the Sikh faith in the eyes of others (as well as increasing confidence amongst its own followers), are nevertheless untrue, and therefore in direct contradiction to the ways of the Creator as presented to us in Gurbani.