Bush or Kerry?

[Yasmin]

Bikramjit Singh. Obviously being Muslim I beleive that Islam is the truth so firstly I could never understand why someone would want to turn away from that truth. This is a point we will never see eye to eye on because Sikhism regards this very differently (ier all religions being paths to the same destination or God - correct me if i'm wrong). If in Shariah Law it says an apostate must be killed and this is with evidence and proven to be true. Who am I to refute the laws of God?? That is my answer.

The taliban have been widely misunderstood through prejudices in the media but they were no innocents. They took things into their own 'extreme', so no they did not implement shariah correctly.

That is an age old excuse. If you point out the flaws in Sharia ( so called divinely ordained law) then Muslims always use the excuse that the country where the law is being practicised is not truely 'Islamic'

This isnt an excuse its true. How can you base opinions of shariah on countries which either say they are implementing shariah and do it wrongly and make up their own laws claiming its shariah, or countries that only apply a few of the rules and not others? How can we then say well look this country implements shariah and lits doing wrong and all these injustices?

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan

I think it is time for Muslims in the West to speak up against the Suppressive Muslim nations.

As do I, unforetunately the voice of muslims in the west is taking too long to develop and yes that is a fault of our own community. There are plenty of wrongs that occur in Islamic societies that need to be sorted out.

I'm not denying Israel has a right to exist but concerning Gaza and that area they have taken land that is not theirs in that case. That is what half of the conflict is about.

the problem is that Muslims want the complete extermination of israel and i'm sorry but that isn't going to happen. This is just inhumane and irrational.

Yes you're right it is irrational and inhuman because aswell as being soldiers and having their own terrorists, there are also plenty of innocents in iosrael. I definately am not of the beleif that the whole country and population should be exterminated. Its a case of reaching a treaty and finding a way for the two nations to exist peacefully or with somer espect along side each other.

And I agree with you that too often when innocents are killed there is not enoigh outcry you have a valid point there. And I wish as much as you that my community woul;d sort itself out we have alot opf problems. But the muslim fighters only fight back l;ike this because they have also suffered terrible injustices. It is not right to fight violence against violence but they feel this is their last resort. They need education and help on both sides if these situations are to be stopped. But this is a long way off.

Ther

e are plenty of problems in the muslim community around the world, many many problems, but it is not because of Islam that this happens. Islam the religion IS peaceful but its when muslims who are after all just people who interpret things wrongly and take things to extremes that all this trouble occurs. I wish for all these things to be stopped as much as any of you.

Just as the sikh community has areas that need to be improved so does Islam. It is just a case of that islam has over 1 billion followers worldwide whereas Sikhism has a smaller following in comparison, therefore there is going to be more media coverage and reports on islam and the way Muslims are behaving than say how Sikhs are behaving. Add that to the fact that Sikhs seems a more peaceful people anyway and that is soemthing muslims can definately learn from.

[theturbanator]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

just something my friend sent me [with added commentary ] :lol:

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."

-George W. Bush (no shyt sherlock)

" make sure everybody who has a job wants a job."

- George W. Bush(complete <banned word filter activated>)

"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."

- George W. Bush(ya think)

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

-George W. Bush(u could read the future now)

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

-George W. Bush(How the hell did u become president)

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

good post Yasmin.

That was hillarious turbanator! lol

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Yasmin

Bikramjit Singh. Obviously being Muslim I beleive that Islam is the truth so firstly I could never understand why someone would want to turn away from that truth. This is a point we will never see eye to eye on because Sikhism regards this very differently (ier all religions being paths to the same destination or God - correct me if i'm wrong). If in Shariah Law it says an apostate must be killed and this is with evidence and proven to be true. Who am I to refute the laws of God?? That is my answer.

I wish you would read what you have written and not mask it under the 'laws of God' excuse. You have basically said that it is OK to kill someone because they have exercised their right to freedom of religion as accepted by all civilised nations. Then you claim that it is worrying when non-Muslims feel so strongly that Islam is a threat to the freedoms that they enjoy. You cannot have it both ways. How can you then claim that Islam is a religion of peace?

The taliban have been widely misunderstood through prejudices in the media but they were no innocents. They took things into their own 'extreme', so no they did not implement

shariah correctly.

The Taliban were as their name implies were scholars or students of Islam. Their leaders studied Islam all their lives and they attempted to implement all the nonsense regulations that occur in the Hadiths. You have already admitted that you do not have that much knowledge of Islam but you think that you know your religion better than those like the Taliban who studied it all their lives I think you're version of Islam may not be recogised as such by the vast majority of Muslims.

This isnt an excuse its true. How can you base opinions of shariah on countries which either say they are implementing shariah and do it wrongly and make up their own laws claiming its shariah, or countries that only apply a few of the rules and not others? How can we then say well look this country implements shariah and lits doing wrong and all these injustices?

Sharia law is simply unworkable, this is the truth of the matter. What happens is that some countries just leave out the unworkable regulations of Sharia law but this does not show that Sharia law in it's entirety would work but just that even Muslim countries are aware that some regulations are simply not relevant for the 21st century and should be left in the 7th century where they belong. Lately even the Muslims in Nigeria have been protesting at the way Sharia law works :lol: <

br>

As far as I am aware the Taliban as well as Saudi implement the whole of the Sharia law. So you get the kind of discrimination against non-Muslims in these countries which if the opposite was the case for Muslims in the west they would be filing lawsuits against the government and ranting and raving about 'Islamophobia' A non-Muslim is not able to build any Churches, Synagogues, Gurdwaras or Mandirs in Saudi. This is because the Koran and Hadiths state that Allah wishes no non-Muslim worship in Saudi Arabia? How would you as a Muslim feel if the Christians in the UK said that all Mosques will need to close and no Muslim can worship because the UK is a Christian country?

Just as the sikh community has areas that need to be improved so does Islam. It is just a case of that islam has over 1 billion followers worldwide whereas Sikhism has a smaller following in comparison, therefore there is going to be more media coverage and reports on islam and the way Muslims are behaving than say how Sikhs are behaving. Add that to the fact that Sikhs seems a more peaceful people anyway and that is soemthing muslims can definately learn from.

It's not the numbers it is the behaviour. How many Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus or other non-Muslims do you know that have slammed 2 planes into a skyscraper or have bombed a nightclub and trains killing hundreds of innocent people?

And I agree with you that too often when innocents are killed there is not enoigh outcry you have a valid point there.

How about the ex-Muslim who you have said you agree with being killed solely for changing his religion, isn't he innocent??

GurFateh

Bikramjit Singh

[Mehtab Singh]

I grew up all my life in the Middle East. Here is news for some :

The Sultan of Oman was saved by Sikhs when his own brother tried to kill him for the throne. After he became the king, he offered to give citizenship to Sikhs (the only Middle Eastern country that ever offered citizenship to non-Muslims) but Sikhs refused. There are loads of Hindu temples and Gurdwaras in Oman and are allowed unlike all other Middle Eastern countries. I was told all this by a Sikh who is settled in Oman and his daughter studies in my university.

Swami Narayan, a Hindu saint was very well received by the Sheikh of Bahrain some 7 years ago. I saw with my own eyes on TV : the Sheikh presented a pot made of gold and laid with gems to the Swami.

Iran is the only Islamic country that has a good Jewish population. Few years ago I read on SikhNet that there they call every Sikh as "Sardar <first name> Singh". I think the ancient Gurdwaras that mark Guru Nanak Dev Jee's route to the Middle East are also well-preserved there.

So now you have 3 Middle Eastern Islamic countries that do give a good amount of freedom to non-Muslims. The others are kind of messed up.

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Thanks Mehtab Singh for the information. In Saudi Arabia it is official policy as part of Sharia law not to allow any non-Muslim places of worship to be built. In fact anyone even carrying a non-Muslim religious book is liable to be arrested! The funny thing is that Yasmin complains about Sharia law not being implementated fully but it is because of it's non full implementation that Sikhs and Hindus enjoy rights to free worship in Oman and Bahrain

On the perception of Islam as a 'religion of peace' there is a great response to the recent CAIR survey about anti-Muslim attitudes in the US

GurFateh

Bikramjit Singh

from http://www.jihadwatch.org/

This week's column by Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer expands upon CAIR's new survey that found that 25% of Americans are "anti-Muslim" because they think Islam teaches violence. From FrontPage:

Twenty-five percent of Americans hold what AP calls “anti-Muslim views,” according to a story published Monday. AP added that “the poll found that people most likely to have negative attitudes were male, white, less educated, politically conservative and living in the South.” And, no doubt, wear overalls and drive pickups with gun racks and Confederate flag bumper stickers.

Working hard to dispel the prejudice of these benighted Bubbas is none other tha

n the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), which actually conducted the survey. They’re planning activities during the Muslim month of Ramadan to counter what AP characterized as one indication of “anti-Muslim views”: “a belief that the religion teaches violence and hatred.”

How’s that again? Americans are “anti-Muslim” because they think Islam teaches violence and hatred? With Muslims shouting “Allahu akbar” (Allah is greatest) while beheading civilians in Iraq and murdering children in Beslan, Russia, perhaps it’s a bit premature to convict this 25% of Americans of bigotry. With the leader of the Pakistani radical Muslim group Jaish-e-Mohammed, Maulana Masood Azhar, saying last year that “in Islam the only meaning of jihad was killing,” maybe that twenty-five percent is on to something.

But of course, CAIR maintains that all that is a hijacking of Islam. CAIR Board Chairman Omar Ahmad insisted that those who commit violence in Islam’s name “have nothing to do with Islam. People claim they are doing it for Islam, but it’s really in spite of Islam,” Ahmad said. And they have convinced Americans of this: “About two in three,” according to AP, “said they agreed that ‘the people who use Islam to justify violence are misinterpreting its teachings.’”

Maulana Masood Azhar himself was not so easily convinced. He declared that the misinterpreters were the Muslim moderates, saying that those who elaborated the ideas of the “greater jihad” and the “lesser jihad” were “against Islam.” The “greater jihad,” as American Muslim spokesmen never tire of reminding us, is spiritual struggle. The “lesser jihad,” they say, is warfare, but only for defense. In my book Onward Muslim Soldiers I detail how radical Muslims including Abdullah Azzam, Osama bin Laden’s mentor, and Hassan Al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (the first modern radical Muslim group), rejected the concept of the “greater jihad” as being founded upon inauthentic traditions of the Prophet Muhammad. Azhar evidently shares this

view.

What’s more, from the standpoint of Islamic theology and tradition, the radicals have the better of the argument. The courageous ex-Muslim Ibn Warraq writer explains: “For every text the liberal Muslims produce, the mullahs will use dozens of counter-examples [that are]exegetically, philosophically, historically far more legitimate.” He adds that “it is time for moderate Muslims to question honestly the principles of their faith. To admit the role of the Qur’an in the propagation of violence.”

To admit the role of the Qur’an in the propagation of violence is simply to open one’s eyes and read the statements of Osama bin Laden and other radical Muslim leaders. Is to do this “anti-Muslim”? Certainly CAIR, as shown by this AP article, thinks of all such efforts as “anti-Muslim,” and the media uncritically accepts the group’s contention that to discuss the roots of terror in the doctrine of jihad is to hate Muslims. But in fact, to criticize the elements of Islam that give rise to terror is not to be anti-Muslim at all; individual Muslims themselves may not accept or even know about the doctrines that Osama and others use to justify themselves.

Moreover, to ignore these elements out of fear of being anti-Muslim plays into the hands of the jihadists by foreclosing on any honest examination of why they’re really doing what they’re doing — which foreclosure, of course, destroys the chance that any positive and truly effective steps can be taken to stop them.

It is not hating Muslims to ask them to remove the hate from their religion, and to accept the principles of human rights that are accepted everywhere else in the world. But will Omar Ahmad and CAIR admit this? I doubt it. Ahmad, of course, was reported as saying in 1998 that “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.” He has since claimed that his remarks were misrepresented, but the reporter

says she remembers his statement, if not his exact words, and declines to retract her story.

Is Omar Ahmad himself “anti-Muslim”?

[theturbanator]

I grew up all my life in the Middle East. Here is news for some :

The Sultan of Oman was saved by Sikhs when his own brother tried to kill him for the throne. After he became the king, he offered to give citizenship to Sikhs (the only Middle Eastern country that ever offered citizenship to non-Muslims) but Sikhs refused. There are loads of Hindu temples and Gurdwaras in Oman and are allowed unlike all other Middle Eastern countries. I was told all this by a Sikh who is settled in Oman and his daughter studies in my university.

Swami Narayan, a Hindu saint was very well received by the Sheikh of Bahrain some 7 years ago. I saw with my own eyes on TV : the Sheikh presented a pot made of gold and laid with gems to the Swami.

Iran is the only Islamic country that has a good Jewish population. Few years ago I read on SikhNet that there they call every Sikh as "Sardar <first name> Singh". I think the ancient Gurdwaras that mark Guru Nanak Dev Jee's route to the Middle East are also well-preserved there.

So now you have 3 Middle Eastern Islamic countries that do give a good amount of freedom to non-Muslims. The others are kind of messed up.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

some realtive of mine said they

have gurudwaras in Iran but like every so often they send ppl to see what they are doing, suscpicious of any activity not related to sikhi, also anyone no whats on about the gurudwara in baghdad?

[Yasmin]

Bikramjit Singh I hardly think you are in a position to judge my own beleif and knowledge of islam. I dont just base my opinions on what I know... thats stupid of anyone to do, instead I read up aon different issues and know and speak to many knowledgable people who will have far more knowledge of Islam than you could know. So my views are not just my own and comments like

I think you're version of Islam may not be recogised as such by the vast majority of Muslims.

is very narrow minded. 'My verison' of Islam is the same as any one else's, just because I may follow a different interpretation and view on some issues to some people does not make my 'version' someow wrong. it amazes me how every time we have these discussions you talk as if you know what the whole muslim community is like.

You have already admitted that you do not have that much knowledge of Islam but you think that you know your religion better than those like the Taliban who studied it all their lives

No, I said I have limited knowledge on the subject, but from what I do know and from tlaking to other people there are definately things that the taliban did

that weren't from Shariah or were misinterpretations/extremes of Shariah laws. just because they studied it all their lives does not mean they were so perfect that they got everything right. Have you actually eve read a pro-taliban article or website? Or do you only focus on everything that goes against? have you tried to understanmd? If you havent then please go and read with an open mind. If you have and you still reach the same conclusions about them then you are free to have that view.

Mehtab Singh thanx for your information. I notice Bikramjit Singh that when presented with this evidence you didnt correct what you said before but still decided to focus entirely on Saudi.

How would you as a Muslim feel if the Christians in the UK said that all Mosques will need to close and no Muslim can worship because the UK is a Christian country?

I would leave simple as that.

It's not the numbers it is the behaviour. How many Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus or other non-Muslims do you know that have slammed 2 planes into a skyscraper or have bombed a nightclub and trains killing hundreds of innocent people?

A typical response, basing the values of Islam on what terrorists do. There arent hundreds of thousands of terrorists out there, just the ones that are terrorists and do terrible things like what you show above get so much media coverage that it is shoved in everyones faces everytime it happens which gives the impression its happening all the time and theres so many

terrorists out there. The reality is that there isnt. The number of 'terrorists/extremists' in comparison to the total muslim population is small. No doubt you wont agree.

Muslim extremists and radical groups have only one aim and that is a political aim and a want to have vengance on America and its allies. That is their priority and they will use Islam in a mnipulative fashion possible to get their way. They are not interested in trying to preserve the true nature of islam, instead just use it for their own political gains.

Bikramjit Singh, from this and other posts it is clear you have already made up your mind of a violent and dangerous Islam so I will not discuss these issues further as you do not have an open mind to even try and see that there is another side to the story so often portrayed by those anti islam. I take some time out to read views from people with the opposite view of islam to me and try to understand and research these issues but it appears you are unwilling to do so.

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Yasmin

It seems that you have the attitude that if someone doesn;t agree with you that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion then that person is not open minded!!

This is really funny because by stating that you see nothing wrong is killing someone just because they do not wish to remain a Muslim you have shown just how dangerous a threat Islam is to the free world. You chose not to answer my question from my previous post

How about the ex-Muslim who you have said you agree with being killed solely for changing his religion, isn't he innocent??

The reason that I did not comment greatly on Mehtab Singh's post was because he was referring to Bahrain and Oman which are quite free societies when Saudi Arabia has full Sharia in operation.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Yasmin]

You are not muslim so whatever laws there are in shariah about apostates will not affect you.

you will never truely understand Shariah law or islam just as I will never fully understand sikhism because we simply just don't share the same beliefs. That is why for example this law you will never understand, just like there are plenty of things in Sikhism I will never understand or agree with.

How about the ex-Muslim who you have said you agree with being killed solely for changing his religion, isn't he innocent??

In terms of islam he is not innocent because he turned away from the truth.

It seems that you have the attitude that if someone doesn;t agree with you that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion then that person is not open minded!!

nope, you are free to disagree with me but only on the basis that you look to both sides of the story when it often appears you only look at things from a western or anti islam direction. If you have read both pro and anti islam statements about issues and then you still decide it is full of violence then that is your decision I pity that decision but I could not say you havent tried to be open minded abo

ut it and I would leave it at that.

Sorry to whoevers thread this was for messing it up lol.