Body Building

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

I dont want to discuss this....Bro but read this:

They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, And eat a simple diet of grain and water. (SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242 The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. // 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

But to be honest I REALLY dont care what YOU do - I mean its ur life and who the hell am I to tell you on how to live it - all i want to do is make sure ppl who read your post know that meat eating is not ALLOWED IN SIKHI!!!!!!

[randip singh]

I dont want to discuss this....Bro but read this:

They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, And eat a simple diet of grain and water. (SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242 The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. // 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

But to be honest I REALLY dont care what YOU do - I mean its ur life and who the hell am I to tell you on how to live it - all i want to do is make sure ppl who read your post know that meat eating is not ALLOWED IN SIKHI!!!!!!

..........Bro lets take your posts literally.......

....eat only water and grain..........I don't think so............

...........what about Marijuna and Fish...........why did Sant Kabir Ji single these out?

...........you kill living beings? Could be anything..........in this case the refrence is to sacrifice...........of the top of my head I think it is a refrence to the Mullah.............

.............as for Killing hens........this was a sacrifice done by Hindu's to apease Gods............as you know any form of sacrifice is against Sikhi.........

.......as for hunted meat........kabir Ji is refering to the people who live off people who suck the blood of others.........

..........which lunatic would eat rotted dead bodies..................

If you want to debate the finer points of the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then be prepared...........I have succesfully countered these arguments and more on Sikh-History.com................

..........MEAT EATING AND VEGETARIANISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SIKHISM..................and bro I don't want you forcing your opinions of Sikhism on everyone else............and putting them on some guilt trip...........

I have a hard enough time trying to train skinny Sikh guys without you putting further guilt trips on them...............you don't think meat is spiritually right for you then don't eat it...........

anyway here is a selection for you to ponder over from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..............

Page 1289, Line 15 -- Guru Nanak Dev

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

Page 1289, Line 16 -- Gu

ru Nanak Dev

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

Page 1289, Line 17 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

Page 1289, Line 19 -- Guru Nanak Dev

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

Page 1290, Line 4 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.

Page 1290, Line 5 -- Guru Nanak Dev

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.

Page 1290, Line 5 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.

Page 1290, Line 7 -- Guru Nanak Dev

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.

Please do not try and turn a great faith such as Sikhism into a Carte Blanche Menu.................

pS a little tip bro.............when quoting from the Guru Granth Sahib ji............I suggest you read the whole Pauri to find out what context sentences are used........... :wub:

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

whoa, randip singh got a point...

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

Meat-eating Sikh brethren advocate that the only touchstone to be used in deciding whether meat should be eaten or refrained from, is whether it creates trouble in the body and fills the mind with evil. If there is no such ill effect then there is no harm in eating it. In the support of this contention, they cite the following couplet from Gurbani:

Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar

Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar. (pg. 196)

0 Baba! All other foods (except the Naam)

create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.

Evidently the foregoing couplet is a mis-quotation in this context because herein Guru Sahib is comparing all material foods with the Divine Food (i.e. Naam-Simran) and is decrying the former. The word HORE is very crucial in this couplet. It does not mean ANY food but any OTHER food, i.e., any food other than NAAM. In the absence of the Divine Food (Naam), all material foods will sicken the body as well as the soul. The very idea of eating meat fills the mind with evil making it aggressive and a partner in taking the life of an innocent creature. For this very reason, almost all of the well-known spiritually enlightened Gursikhs of the past and present have been and are shunning meat and allied non-vegetarian foods. Such foods are not conducive to spiritual development and Naam-Simran and, therefore, the all-knowing Satguuu could not approve them.

In two Hukam Naamaas of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib (Appendix C), there are clear cut instructions

prohibiting the eating of meat, fish, etc. The actual words used are "Maas machhi de nerrey nahin jawnaa." When Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Sikhs from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, writes in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."13

What clear cut evidence against eating flesh and drinking wine in Sikhism!

viii. Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh ii's "UPDESH" to Bhai Daya Singh ji which is mentioned in "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH", and also found written in some old handwritten volumes of Sri Guru Granth Sahib:

"One who does not:

(a) Steal,

(b) Commit adultery,

© Slander anyone,

(d) Gamble,

(e) Eat meat or drink wine,

will be liberated in this very life (i.e. Jeewan Mukt)".14

By the way BRO Dont make me laugh

Page 1289, Line 15 -- Guru Nanak Dev

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation

and spiritual wisdom.

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

Page 1289, Line 16 -- Guru Nanak Dev

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

Page 1289, Line 17 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

Page 1289, Line 19 -- Guru Nanak Dev

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

Page 1290, Line 4 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.

Page 1290, Line 5 -- Guru Nanak Dev

It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

jaj kaaj vee-aahi suhaavai othai maas samaanaa.

Page 1290, Line 5 -- Guru Nanak Dev

Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

istaree purakh nipjahi maasahu paatisaah sultaanaaN.

Page 1290, Line 7 -- Guru Nanak Dev

O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

paaNday too jaanai hee naahee kithhu maas upannaa.

Heres some more information for you to read!!

The only hymn in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is specifically cited in support of eating meat is the hymn of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dcv Ji in the // of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90 beginning with the couplet:

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.

Gian dhian Nahin Jaa

ney.

Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey

Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat. He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not.

A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. He has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

 

The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.

One very well known Sikh writer, in his boo

k on Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's life16, while claiming that the above hymn supports meat eating, recommends that those Sikhs who seek spiritual bliss through Naam Simran should shun it! Well, devoid of Naam Slmran Sikhism is reduced to naught.

At this point it would be worth mentioning two well known anecdotes from the life of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this respect:

During his visit to Lahore, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji happened to stay in the neighborhood of a big slaughter house. In the ambrosial hours of the early morning, he heard loud shrills and cries of the animals being butchered there. Then, in the daytime, he saw the population addicted to vices connected with meat, wine and women. He was so moved by this sight that he exclaimed:

Lahore shahar zahar kahar sawa pahar. (pg. 1412)

God's curse is upon the city of Lahore for a quarter of the day.

Duni Chand was holding a grand annual feast to feed the Brahmins in celebration of Saraadh ceremony for the peace of his departed father's soul. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji told him that his father had taken the body of a wolf and was starving on the nearby river bank at that time. Duni Chand immediately went there and saw the starving wolf. On seeing his son, the wolf died and thus spoke to him from his Astral or luminous body:

"In human body when I was nearing death, I smelt the flavor of meat being cooked in the neighboring house and felt an ardent desire for it. I died in the same state of mind. That is why I was given the body of a wolf so that I could fulfill my last desire in human life."17

Gurbani also says:

Jit Laago Man Baasna, Ant Saaee PragtaanL (pg. 267)

The desire to which the mind is attached, becomes manifest in the end.

This brings out clearly the thinking of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this respect. Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating of animal flesh in clearcut and unambiguous language in a number of places:

Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar ThaapohAdharam Kaho Kat Bhai

.

Aapas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee. (pg. 1103)

You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)?

Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey.

Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudal Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey. (pg. 1350)

Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought

to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the

chicken (i.e., life?)

Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.

Aapaa Dekh Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey. (pg. 1375)

You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God.

At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.

Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal (pg. 1375)

Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

Kabir Bhaang, Machhli Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.

Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey. (pg. 1376)

Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.

Kabir Khoob Khaana Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon.

Heraa Rotee Kaamey Galaa Kataavey Kon. (pg. 1374)

Blessed is the simple food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?

mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan - Please read what is written above - it is clear that Randip Singh has not read the whole pauri and is quoting blindly the hymn composed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji!!!

QUOTE

..........MEAT EATING AND VEGETARIANISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SIKHISM..................and bro I don't want you forcing your opinions of Sikhism on everyone else............and putting them on some guilt trip........... Im not I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU DO!!!! ITS YOUR LIFE And Whateva sins we commit in this life in the true court of justice we will have to pay for. And Im not puttin anyone on a guilt trip - im just providing these people with information on why in sikhi THE EATING OF FLESH IS NOT ALLOWED. I have a hard enough time trying to train skinny Sikh guys without you putting further guilt trips on them...............you don't think meat is spiritually right for you then don't eat it........... As for training im sure unless they want to be the next arnold schwarzenegger im sure they can train on a vegetarian diet!!! IM DOING MEDICINE AT UNI SO I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE HUMAN BODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - in case u want to discuss the finer points of this. :wub: :bringitondude

[randip singh]

Me Misleading...........don't you think you are getting personal.............you sound like a typical pre-meat eater or a pro vegetarian.............you start getting hysterical after a bit............. :wub: .......... ............only jokin mate.........

Brother this thread is about Bodybuilding................I can counter each and every one of the Tukhs you have quoted..................but this thread is for bodybuilding...............

The fact is there is NOT one pure-Vegetarian bodybuilder of note..........(i.e does not eat eggs)................if you can find one then kudos to you............I 've trained at some of the best gyms with some of the top bodybuilders like Bertil Fox............at Wag Bennets and Bill Stevens...............but its no big deal...........and you will note many top bodybuilders tend to be Doctors in nutrition and other disciplines...........eg Dr Franco Columbo...........

...........and don't get too excited about studying medicine..........you haven't graduated yet...... .....the Doctors I have met also tend to have the biggest vices too like "Alcoholism"...............

........and Bro...............apply the same standards to yourself............don't just quote one or two lines fom the Guru Granth Sahib and take them out of context of the paragraphs...........that is deliberate misquoting................. :doh:

...............also I take it you understand Gurmookhi.............if you do then do me a favour and look up the word "Murdar"............... :D

..........I could not care less if you want to eat meat or not eat meat it simply has NOTHING to do with Sikhism.........................the advocating of meat eating just takes us to the semitic texts and Islam and the Vegetarianism takes us closer to Hinduism..................

Anyway here's something more for you to think about..........

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Sri Guru Granth Sahib Quotes

by Sandeep Singh Brar 

Meat classifed with good foods such as bread, not bad foods such as wine

"The body is the bottle, self-conceit is the wine, and desire is the company of drinking companions. The glass of the mind’s longing is filled to overflowing with falsehood; the Messenger of Death is the bartender. Drinking in this wine, O Nanak, one takes on countless vices and corruption. So make spiritual wisdom your molasses, and the Praise of God your bread; let the Fear of God be the dish of meat. O Nanak, this is the true food; let the True Name be your only Support.&quo

t; (Baba Mardana, Bihagara, pg. 553)

In the society of the times meat was avoided by Hindus and certain kinds by the Muslims. The Gurus tried to explain to these people that it was not eating meat was not the real sin but:

Taking anothers right is the real thing to be avoided

"Nanak, another's right is swine for him (the Musalman) and cow for him (the Hindu)." (Guru Nanak, pg. 141)

Falsehood is the real thing to avoid

"By uttering falsehood, man eats meat, Yet, he goes to admonish others. Such appears to be the leader, O' Nanak! who himself is beguiled and beguiles his comrades." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 140)

"Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat." (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 24)

Evil intellect, heartlesness, slander and wrath are the real things to avoid

“Evil-intellect is the she drummer, heartlessness is the butcheress, other’s slander in the heart is a sweepress and deceitful wrath is a pariah-woman” (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 91)

Avarice, falsehood, cheatings and slander are the real things to avoid

“Avarice is a dog., falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. Slandering others solely amounts to puting other’s filth in ones own mouth and fire of wrath is a pariah.” (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg.15)

The Gurus clearly stated what are sins throughout the Guru Granth Sahib, nowhere is eating meat mentioned as being one of these sins.

"Taking halter, men go out at night to strangle others, but the Lord knows all, O mortal. Concealed in places they look at other women. They break into places, difficult to acceess and enjoy wine deeming it sweet. Over their respective misdeeds, they shall themselves afterwards regret. Azrail, the courier of death shall crush them like the mill full of sesame." (Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 315)

"Renounce sexual pleasures, wrath, falsehood and calumny, forsake worldly valuables and dispel pride. Put aside the lust for belles and lea

ve worldly love. Then shalt thou obtain the bright Lord amidst the dark world. Eschew self-adoration, egotism and affection for thy sons and wife. Shed thirst and desire for wealth and embrace love for the omnipresent Lord. Nanak, he, in whose mind the True One abides, through the True Gurbani gets absorbed in God's Name." (Guru Ram Das, pg. 141)

"Abandon lust, wrath, avarice and worldly love. Thus be rid of both birth and death. Distress and darkness shall depart from thy home, when, within thee, the Guru implants wisdom and lights the Divine lamp. He, who serves the Lord crosses the sea of life. Through the Guru, O slave Nanak, the entire world is saved." (Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 241)

"In the fire of desire, avarice, arrogance and excessive egotism the man is burning. He repeatedly goes, comes and loses his honour. His life he wastes away in vain. Rare is the person who understands Gurbani." ( Guru Amar Das, Majh, pg 120)

The superstitions of the impurity of certain foods such as meat exposed and the real emphasis revealed:

"If the principle of impurity be admitted, then there is impurity everywhere.

In cow-dung and wood there are worms.

As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.

In the first place there is life in water, by which, all are made green.

How can impurity be warded off? It falls on our own kitchen.

Nanak, impurity is not removed like this. It is washed away by Divine Knowledge.

The mind's impurity is avarice and the tongue's impurity falsehood.

The impurity of the eyes is to behold another's woman, another's wealth and beauty.

The impurity of the ears is to hear the slander of others with ears,

Nanak, mortal's soul goes bout to the city of death.

All impurity consists in doubt and attachment to duality.

Birth and death are subject to Lord's command and through His will mortal comes and goes.

Eating and drinking are pure, for the Lord has given sustenance to

all.

Nanak, the Gurmukh who know the Lord, to them impurity sticks not."

(Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 472)

"What can be achieved by eating and what by dressing, so long as that True Lord abides not in the man's mind? What is fruit, what clarified butter and sweet molasses, what fine flour and what meat? What is rainment and what comfortable couch to enjoy sexual intercourse and revelments? Of what use is an army and of what the mace-bearers, servants and coming and dwelling in mansions? Nanak, without the True Name, the entire paraphernalia is perishable." (Guru Nanak, pg. 142)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted." (Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

"The world-hardened men, who eat poison by repeatedly telling lies, the Lord Himself has led astray. They know not the ultimate reality of departure, and increase the poison of lust and wrath." (Guru Amar Das, Pauri, pg. 145)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master." (Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"By reading and reciting men grow weary but they obtain not peace. By desire they are consumed, and they have no knowledge of it. Poison they purchase and for the love of poison they are thirsty. By telling lies they eat poison." (Guru Amrar Das, Majh, pg. 120)

"I have tasted and seen all other relishes but to my mind the God's dainty is the sweetest of all." (Guru Arjan Dev, Majh, pg.100)

"Do thou only that by which filth may not attach to thee, and this soul of thine may remain awake in singing God's praises.

Meditate on the One Lord, and think not duality.

In the guild of saints repeat only the Name.

Rituals, duty, religious rites, fasting and worship are all covered recognising none else in sans the Supreme Lord.

Of him the toil is approved, whose affection is with h

is own Master.

Infinitely invaluable is that vegetarian (Vishnavite), says Nanak; who renounced sins."

(Guru Arjan Dev, Gauri, pg. 199)

"Let somone sing, someone hear, someone reflect on, someone preach the Name of God and somone fix it in his mind, he shall forthwith be saved. His sins shall be effaced, he shall become pure and his filth of many births shall be washed off. In this world and the next world, his countenance shall be bright, and mammon shall not affect him. He is the man of wisdom, he the vegetarian, he the divine and the man of wealth; He is the hero, and he is of high family, who has meditated on the Fortunate Lord." (Guru Arjan Dev, Pauri, pg. 300)

"Self-conceit and wealth are all poison. Attached therewith, man ever suffers loss in this world. By pondering on the Name, the Guru-ward earns the profit of God's wealth. By placing God and God's elixir in the mind, the poison of the filth of ego is removed." (Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 300)

"The attachment of all the visible objects is all impurity. Due to this, the mortal dies and is reborn again and again. Impurity is in fire, air and water. Within all the food, which we eat, there is pollution. Defilement is in mans actions as he performs not God's worship." (Guru Amar Das, Gauri Guareri, pg. 229)

"Without the Name all, which man wears and eats is poison. By praising the True Name one merges in the True Master." (Guru Nanak, Pauri, pg.144)

"The True food is the Lord's love. So says the True Guru. With the True food I am appeased and with Truth I am delighted." (Guru Angad, Pauri, pg. 146)

The vegetable feels pain just as the animal does, there is no difference.

"See, that the sugarcane is sheared. After cleansing and chopping off its plumes, its feet are bound to form it into bundles. Placing it in between the wooden rollers of the press, they crush and award it punishment. Extracting the juice, they put it in the

cauldron and it groans as it burns. Even the empty crushed cane is collected and is burnt in the fire. Nanak, how the sweet-leaved sugar-cane is treated, come and see, O’ people!" (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 143)

Glorious God is compared not only to the fish and the net but also to a fisherman - a killer of fish for food.

"He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net. He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within."(Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 23)

There is no difference between plants and animals. God in his perfection has designed all living things to eat what they eat. We eat meat as part of the natural order of all living things designed by God. Man has been eating meat and vegetables for millions of years, God has not designed meat eating human beings in error. The only things banned for Sikhs are all unnatural manipulations of natural foods - tobacco, drugs, alcohol all unnatural manipulations of vegetation, and all banned for Sikhs.

"When Thou art true, then all, that flows from Thee is true. Absolutely nothing is false. Talking, seeing, uttering, living, walking and perishing are from Thee, O' Lord! Nanak, the True Lord Himself creates by His order, and in His order He keeps all the beings." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 145)

"The tigers, hawks, kites and falcons, them the Lord causes to eat grass. Who eats grass, them He causes to eat meat. This way of life He can set agoing." (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 144)

"God Himself has made the earth and Himself the sky. He of Himself created the beings therein, and of Himself puts morsels (food) in their mouths. All by Himself He pervades everywhere and Himself is the treasure of excellences. Remember Thou God's Name, O slave Nanak, and He shall efface all thine sins." (Guru Ram Das, Slok, pg. 302)

"They walk in a single file, brush the ground before they lay their foot on it all this they do to avoid killing

life, but it is God who giveth and taketh life." (Guru Gobind Singh, 33 Swayyas, Dasam Granth)

"There is but one breath, all are identical in matter and among all the entire light is the same. The One Light is contained among all the different and diverse things." (Guru Ram Das, Majh, pg. 96)

"Many millions of beings, the Lord has made of good many descriptions. From the Lord they emanated and into the Lord shall they be absorbed." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 276)

"In forests, grass blades and mountains, the Supreme Lord is contained. As is His will so are His creatures acts. The Lord is in wind, water and fire. He is permeating the four quarters and ten directions. There is no place without Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

Amongst all the forms, the Lord Himself is contained.

Through all the eyes, He Himself is the beholder.

The whole creation is His Body.

His praises He Himself hears.

He has made coming and going as a play.

He has rendered mammon subservient to Him.

Though amidst everything He remains unattached.

Whatever is to be said, He Himself says.

By His order man comes and by His order he goes.

Nanak, when it pleases Him, He blends the mortal with Himself, than.

Whatever comes from Him, that cannot be bad.

.....All that He does must be accepted. Through Guru's grace, Nanak has come to know this.

(Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 294)

"I have heard the One Lord to be the treasure of imperishable peace. God is said to be fully filling the ocean, dry land, sky and every heart. He looks equally adorned amongst all the high and low, an ant and an elephant. The friends, comrades, sons and relatives are all created by Him." (Guru Arjan Dev, Slok, pg. 319)

"His plays, He Himself enacts. Coming and going, visible and invisible and the entire world, He has made obedient to Himself." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 281)

Meat prepared by the Muslim ritual sla

ughter is banned for Sikhs

"Yet holding the knife, the world they butcher. Wearing blue the rulers approval they seek; With money derived from mlechhas the Puranas they worship. Goats slaughtered over the unapproved Muslims texts they eat." (Guru Nanak, Raga Asa, pg. 472)

and some leading Sikh Scholars..............

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars

by Sandeep Singh Brar 

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi

Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Suri

ndar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at

least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi

A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (// Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way.

Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto

There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

The Si

kh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver

According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate.

Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal

The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only

rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

One thing that puzzles me is that I have many vegetarians in my family yet they do not claim that Sikhism wishes people to be vegetarian................yet you do?.................why are you doing this?...............if you for you you feel better vegetarian as a Sikh then carry on...................if someone else feels good being Sikh as a meat eater then let them carry on................whats your problem mate?

Misconceptions About Eating Meat

by Sandeep Singh Brar 

The view of Sikhism is that eating meat or abstaining from it is the individuals choice. A Sikh is considered no lesser or greater a Sikh if they eat meat or are a vegetarian.

Final Ruling from Akal Takht

The Akal Takht represents the final authority on controversial issues concerning the Sikh Panth, in this regard the issue of meat eating has been settled. Hukamnama issued by Akal Takht Jathedar Sandhu Singh Bhaura dated February 15th 1980 that Amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat.

The Times of the Gurus

The Bani of Guru Nanak on Meat and Vegetarianism

Quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib

The Comments of Sikh Scholars Regarding Meat

The Sikh Reht Maryada (The Official Code of Conduct)

An Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh is not allowed to eat the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way. <

br>

In Punjabi the word "Kuttha" specifically means meat prepared according to the Muslim ritual slaughter.

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

What is Jhatka Meat and Why?

Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not li

e in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

Why is Meat not served in Langar?

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat toghether in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

...........and don't get too excited about studying medicine..........you haven't graduated yet......  .....the Doctors I have met also tend to have the biggest vices too like "Alcoholism"............... 

Im not getting excited over anything - i know i haven't graduated yet and even after i do i know this profession gets harder - trust me doing a 50 hour week is nothing easy!!!! And what are u trying to imply about alcoholism!!!! Hmmm?? I know im a sinner but I try to follow sikhi as best as I can! I FIND IT VERY INSULTIVE U DONT EVEN KNOW ME - HOW CAN U MAKE A JUDGEMENT LIKE THAT.

AND I KNOW MANY BODY BUILDERS - who regullarly take Performance Enhancing Drugs/Steroids - not that u do ofcourse!

I have a hard enough time trying to train skinny Sikh guys without you putting further guilt trips on them...............you don't think meat is spiritually right for you then don't eat it...........

Maybe u shud recommen

d it to ur skinny sikh guys!!! :wub: as u stated before

..............and it helps make me stronger and fitter than the average Joe....................

Anyways bro - ur right u follow these 'SIKH SCHOLARS' as you call them -

And Ill follow what the damdami taksal and akj do - u follow ur sikh scholars - I will also follow what Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - the light of waheguru says!!!!

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

Hmmm... I dint see this before

the advocating of meat eating just takes us to the semitic texts and Islam and the Vegetarianism takes us closer to Hinduism..................

Yes the damdami taksal and akj are close to hinduism!!! NOT :doh: @ @ @ :wub: :D :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj]

With all due respect brother you do NOT know what Baba Deep Singh ate

Baba Deep Singh ji = 2nd joint Jathedar of Damdami Taksal

Damdami Taksal = dont eat FLESH

U do the maths Bro!

[randip singh]

Akal Purakh.........................sorry about the alcohol comment.......................I did not mean that you consume alcohol……………….it was that people in the medical profession don’t often practice what they preach…………….

I am trying to set up a group to keep Sikh youth off alcohol, drugs etc (including steroids)…………doing weights etc is one way of doing it………..and I get frustrated when we start bickering over things like eating meat………….

I respect your view that you do not eat meat………..just like I respect my relatives who are vegetarian……..but they too respect my wishes that I occasionally eat meat………..especially when training hard………never do they bring Sikhism as a reason to stop eating meat……………

…………….there have always been Sikhs that eat meat and ones that do not……………if Baba Deep Singh did not then I respect him not because he was a vegetarian but because he was a great man…………….

……anyway…………..back to body building…………….I think all Sikhs should take this up…………..it build discipline and character………….

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan - Please read what is written above - it is clear that Randip Singh has not read the whole pauri and is quoting blindly the hymn composed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji!!!

"

yeah so you also agree that the whole context in which a shabad is being quoted should be addressed. I just agreed that the whole pauri should viewed not just single lines which prove one's point.

Why are you people fighting. Look I know amritdharis who are strict vegetarians and some who eat meat. people give quotes from Gurbani which say no meat, others give quotes which say meat is ok. Then you guys post and post and post and then admin shuts it down. Dude just read Gurbani, do paath, live by gurmat, and if Waaheguru pleases the answer will come to you if meat is right or not. You cannot force others to believe what you believe. When I read Gurbani I will get something different from what you may get out of it. Remember Guru Sahib says that understanding waaheguru's hukam and bani comes with God's grace. That level of understanding god's Hukam is different for us all as we are all on different levels of sikh spirituality. So relax for god's sake, our people have a bad habit of wanting to kill one another, if your blood is boiling that bad then go take out Gen Brar or tytler who fed the flesh of our people to dogs. Dude stop arguing over a burger, relax, stay in chardi kala and pray we unite under kesri nishan sahib. We all complain about SGPC and Punjabi politics, just look at this forum, I'm sure turbans would be coming off if we all met in real life