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I agree with you on everything but one thing. They are no youth. Tejwant 'singh', spnadmin(previiously went by add000002 and Narayanjot 'kaur'), Aman'singh', Randip 'singh', 'Gyani Jarnail 'singh'(doesn't deserve the name), are all above 50(maybe not Randip he's still training in being a Guru nindak he's in the 40s). These guys are all twisting Gurbani and sending the wrong message to rest of the cyberspace sangat. From time to time they get more Guru nindaks to come and slander Guru Sahib, but they are the major participants in this anti-sikhi agenda. Better watch out these guys keep tabs on everyone. Speaking from experience here. They get paid for this stuff. The fact you say i was thinking about joining this site......... means you're one of their(SPN) cronies. They thrive off getting more members and can't wait to see Sikh sangat be shut down or lose members. Take your masand luggage and hit the bricks pal.

Could it be due to your limited knowledge on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Maharaj that you misintrepret what sage is really meant there. Do you know the backround of that story where sage is mentioned. You don't present any evidence about the shabads, but here you are calling yourself a scholar and giving out intrepretations. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj celelbrates the Saints life. Guru Sahib tells us to do seva for the Saints, to listen to their advice and take their company. The term Chandrika scares you? Do you know in Gurbani Brahma is used to describe the Lord. IS this refering to the Brahma in the form of Brahma? NO! it's refering to Sri Waheguru ji in the form as creator. It's describing an attribute of the Sri Waheguru ji. Sikhi does not believe in Bhrahma, but throught out Gurbani it's used along with Indra, shiva, Vishnu, lakshmi, etc. Understand the context of the Shabad and don't be disgusted by the name. Since your allergic to Hindu Gods, Hindu mythology, then read this, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj eyk ik®snµ srb dyvw dyv dyvw q Awqmw ] eaek kirasana(n) sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa || The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul. And now Govind is the Lord sMqW mDy goibMdu AwCY gokl mDy isAwm go ] sa(n)thaa(n) madhhae gobi(n)dh aashhai gokal madhhae siaam go || The Lord of the Universe, Govind, is within His Saints; Krishna, Shyaam, is in Gokal. You run off like a chicken when the questions get hard. Why not stay here and listen to the intrepretations, that are kept in context. It's amazing how you resort to political games when your back is against the wall, you can't provide answers. Did Guru Sahib tell you to run away when the questions get tough?

Gurbani is gurbani so there is no split at all, only in your head. that is right , your 'I' will surely take you more closer to God....not! Remember how Ram Rai Ji changed just one word of gurbani and he was disowned by Guru Ji? That is how sacred Gurbani is, you do great disservice to your Guru by calling even one word of it 'a very small part.' How can it be a small part when it constitutes 3/5 of the morning prayers ? There you go with the 'I' again, I this, I that. yes I am sure Guru Ji is so very pleased with you. As we have already established you proporte to be Sikhs but are not and are peddling your wares of deciet , propoganda, confusion so I have no qualms in my attitute to you. You have already admitted that you do not believe in the Panj Bani's so that means you cannot believe in Amrit sanchar hence the Khalsa - SO TELL ME EXACTLY HOW ARE YOU FOLLOWING GURU GOBIND SINGH JI ???????????

Fateh jee Thanks for the video. I will e-mail the sewadars about the audio. I can't wait either. I just booked my ticket today to Manchester Smagam! :D

These guys are 'thugs' THEY ARE NOT SIKHS. They do not believe in the panj banies. Therefore they cannot believe in Amrit. Therefore they cannot believe in the Khalsa. Therefore they cannot believe in Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Therefore they cannot believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Since Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave gurghaddi to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and they do not believe in Guru Gobind Singh Ji they cannot believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They are not Sikhs. :sad:

When I started this topic I just wanted to get a consensus of how many people supported the queue system. The only places I can think where is langar is served in the traditional manner is- Guru Nanak Nishkam Jatha Ramgarhia Sikh Temple - Graham st Any others anyone know of ? I dont think people will switch back now. A generation has been brought up on the queue system and they do not know any better.

this is just horrible our sikh girls need to wake up because this issue is just way too out of hand.. it hurts to see mothers cry like this over their children

Why take advice from someone who is afraid to divulge their own identity? On spn it is not possible to prove a point in an adult manner the outcome of a debate is always off topic Ad Hominem or personal attacks. That is why this forum of SikhSangat is superior as a place for an honourable gentleman's debate whereas spn may aswell be a couple of youths swearing at each other in the playground. You want to discuss the topic? Discuss it here.

I have made a number of points on this topic supporting queuing for langar........... and whilst at the gurdwara this weekday morning, I realised that the only people serving langar were elderly people - of whom some were sitting on chairs (for support) as they served the passing sangat. I didn't spot many athletic, able young persons doing sewa. Surely, it would not be practical for these elderly people to be walking up and down the langar hall carrying balti's full of dal?

SPN claims to be a sikh site.It lures ignorant s and misguides them about sikhism. It is a propaganda site praising Darshan Ragi, Kala afghana and such atheist who denounce sikhism and subverts Gurbani meanings. They can follow their cult but should not propagate against sikh scriptures.The owner of the site uses Baba Deep Singh's icon and propagates against for what Baba Deep singh stood. There is a punk called Tejwant who picks up fight with others and demeans them in a language which a sikh will never use. Then there is Jarnail singh Giani who has been shunted out from many other sites because of his stupid missionary views.He is a mentor of this site.

are you SERIOUS?? racist people are always looking for something to poke fun at that doesnt mean we start to change who we are! we represent khalsa by oversize dastaars.. i am glad that nihang singhs are keeping up with gurus bana regardless of what the world thinks of them!! IF THEY START MAKING FUN OF OUR KIRPANS/BEARDS... doesnt mean we go shave off our beard and get rid of kirpans yes people are gona get upset at your question because it doesnt make any sense! well if more of us start wearing them then it would be a norm!! unless people laughing are just racist..!!! we need to unite against racism not tell our fellow sikhs to change their way of life..!! if ripped jeans are okay to wear and mohawaks are cool then why not sijian hoa dastaars!???

Even if the dastaar is big, its still a part of the Bana, therefore we should respect and expect respect from others for our Bana, regardless of whether or not its big.

Rather than arguing over the way of doing thing, the "system" as we call it. To me it is some what irrelevant. What we should question is that is the Langar reaching the people that may benefit from it? The poor ? Less fortunate amongst us? The Gurdwara should reach out to people in society and make them aware that the Guru's Kitchen is for them, not just for Sikhs.

Only Five - you appear to have a very pessimistic view of human nature. Whatever is missing in your life, I hope you find it. Perhaps when you have a better understanding of this issue, we can discuss it again. Also if I can just humbly clarify one point. Temple does not refer to Mandir. It simply means a Place of Worship (it was a word of Latin origin). So the phrase 'Sikh temple' simply means a Sikh Place of Worship. Mandir is a Hindi word (of sanskrit origin) which has a similar meaning. A Mosque (derived from the word Masjid) is specifically an Islamic place of worship. ...And Judaism is a monotheistic faith (i.e. jews worship one god).

Okay, this is my two-cents and I am most likely wrong so please do forgive me for any mistakes I will most likely make. There is nothing wrong with the queue system in Gurudwara Sahibs. In most Gurudwara Sahibs around the world, outside of India, it is the most used method because it works the best. The sangat all heads for the langar at the same time and usually there is not enough space for everyone to be seated at the same time. So usually with the queue system, by the time the people in end of the line get to the front, the people infront are done and space has openned for more people to sit. In India there is no rush for everyone to sit down at same time because langar is served through out the day. So its not everyone coming in at the same time. Also to be noted is the space limitations. There is just not enough space for multiple people to walk up and down the aisles serving. Harmandir Sahib has huge langar halls, we just don't have that here. I don't think you can call this method wrong because there are sevadars standing serving the food to the people in the queue and then we do have a couple sevadars serving the sangat, when people need more water, roti, dal and etc. It is not like buffet, each person doing their own thing, no seva being done. I think instead of finding faults, we should look at the feelings behind what is being done. Also, I use to go to San Jose Gurudwara sahib as a kid and unless I am mistaken they use to have a queue system. And now with a bigger Gurudwara Sahib with more space, they don't have a queue anymore. I might be mistaken, I have only been to the new one once and that was during weekday, so please correct me if I am wrong.

As is often the case, the discussion descends into simple generalisations with examples to suit one or another point of view. Mentioning harmandir sahib as an example, is like using Mecca as an example of a mosque and St Peter's in the Vatican as an example of a church. I am not disputing the importance of langar. I think it is an extremely important aspect of sikhism in what it symbolises and also what it means for sikhs in everyday life. This discussion was started by someone criticising the fact that sangat (in many gurdwaras) are made to form a queue for langar. My view (and of course, other views are available), is that this is a very trivial issue with respect to what langar is. Two years ago people were discussing whether to have chairs in langar halls and now it is queuing. What will it be next?? Perhaps, whether their should be a quota for roti?? The substantive issue with langar is that it has gone from a simple meal that the community share to an extravagant feast....and for some people, it has now become the main reason why they attend. and to Mr Bundha....a temple is a place of worship/house of God. Is that not what a gurdwara is?? MentalSingh - apology accepted.Thanks and yes, if in a professional capacity I did work for a gurdwara, I would invoice them.

Mentalsingh and Bundha Just because two simple minded, mistaken people agree on something - it doesn't make it true. If you have ever been to India, you will see that langar is generally some dal and roti... that can be managed relatively easily with people sitting in lines on the floor and the flow of people into langar halls during the day is relatively smooth. In developed countries, the langar is now so over the top with at least 4 dishes and sweets in most temples - that the idea of serving it like 'Mata Ji' is impossible... and there is always a mad rush at weekday lunchtimes and Sundays, which is difficult to manage with limited resources. Don't try to recreate some medieval form of langar distribution!! What is important about langar is not the process or method of distribution - it is the principle of langar and what it symbolises. ...and yes, any self respecting, decent person would assist an old or special needs person in a langar hall. This is what frustrates me about some 'very religous' people - they are obsessed with the process and minutiae of religous practice - they can not see the wood for the trees.

Given the fact that meat is forbidden in gurdwaras, should we not also ban the wearing of leather shoes and clothes to gurdwaras? Is it right for people to sit in front of the Guru Granth Sahib wearing cowhide on their person? It is the skin of an animal - surely, it is wrong to where it in the Guru's house. For footwear, there are many alternative options, such as rubber sandals, plastic shoes (e.g. Crocs) and trainers. I am interested in the views of my brothers and sisters.

Well said xtremesingh18!!

There have been some interesting responses on this issue. My personal view is that people need to be pragmatic about such issues. A number of people have said that it is eating meat that is forbidden and that musical instruments and weapons have leather components (which is acceptable). That is a pragmatic position. However, I would also understand it if gurdwaras encouraged people not to wear leather clothing or carry leather bags into the darbar hall. I raised this issue to engage in a debate and to highlight how difficult it is to establish rules and guidance about something like animal products.

this is ridiculous. i cant believe you lot are arguing about the way in which langar is served!?! grow up, the reason queues are used are because they are the most efficient way of providing everyone with langar. if you have a serious issue about this, then take it up with a higher authority, posting on sikhsangat is hardly going to change the way that the majority of the gurdwareh around the world are run...

You have lost the idea of Guru Ka langar. Only person supporting their own point of view is yourself. Mentioning Sri Harmindar Sahib is the correct example because that's what you call Guru Ka Langar. The Sangat are taken care of by the Guru. Guru Ka Langar is not something you come and eat and leave. The seva involved in preparing and then doing the seva of serving Guru Ki Sangat and then eating as one is the true practice of Guru Ka Langar. You have failed to understand what even Guru Ka langar is. This is not one view and you have another. The person who started this topic gave the correct definition of Guru Ka Langar. What Guru Ka Langar is, very clear cut and does not need to be discussed and is not trivial You wish to make it trivial to express your backward views here. The fact you bring this issue up in this dicussion, shows you do not understand what Guru Ka Langar is. It shows something else about you, but i'll leave that part out of the discussion. And the adding of the chairs and tables, and then making lines for Guru Ka Langar have added to the issue of a more lavish meal. A temple is a place of worship of A God(jews, hindus). It shows the lack of worship to THEE God. Why do you think Harmindar Sahib is not called just Mandir(Temple). The Har(God) infront of Mandir means it is the place of worship of Sri Waheguru ji. A Gurdwara is a place of worship of Sri Waheguru ji. You can not call a Gurdwara a Mosque and a Mosque a Gurdwara. Just like how you can't call a Gurdwara a temple.

Why do you think that is, that everyone heads to take the Langar, because they know themselves that sevadaars are going to be waiting for them to form a line, (take as much as you need now because surely getting served afterwards is nearly impossible). The line format gives an excuse for not to doing the seva that is needed. In every Gurdwara in the west there is always a shortage of people doing the seva. Everyone does their own thing and leaves. Now say the same people that want to eat the langar have to serve the food to each other, does that not build a bond in the sangat and creates the sevadaars needed for the seva? The langar Hall has become a place for women and grown men to gossip. Now say we go back to the system where Guru Ka langar is served to the people sitting down. You need more sevadaars and more room for people to sit. This process kills the gossip happening in the sangat because either the person gossiping will feel guilty of letting people sit without Guru Ka Langar or they will have no shame and just leave or be asked to leave because the space is needed for the sangat waiting to eat Guru Ka Langar. Actually by going back to sangat sitting down and sevadaars come arounding to give langar, you will have more space. The sangat have to work together in this process. If they don't then no one will serve or eat the langar. The more sevadaars the more the opportunity to do seva and more space for people coming in to eat langar. No one puts it on another to do the seva. Everyone or near to everyone has to do their part in making it work. It has become a fashion show at the weddings. You have hired people serving the langar. The royal kings(the guest at the wedding) come sit down and expect to be served Langar and if they are not then you get the gossiping that the groom and bride could not even afford proper caters for them. Ask a person at the wedding to help out and the first thing they say, is im wearing a suit, implying it is expensive and i don't want to make a mess out of it, by serving Guru ka Langar. Say we get rid of the line system and now this same royal king has to serve the sangat himself/herself and maybe, just maybe this royal king/queen will understand humility for one second. In the line system everyone is caught up in their own world. It is like a buffet, because you know the chance of getting langar once you're sitting down is very low. And people throw the langar away because in the line process they believe they can eat everything they take, but at the end they don't. Grown men and majority of the time woman do this. And they have no shame on bringing their plate still full with food, only to be thrown away. It's about putting in place the correct system where it represents Sikhi.

Guru Ka Langar is not about speed and eating. This is not a reception. it is a Gurdwara where you come to learn, whether that be in Darbar Sahib or in Guru Ka Langar. What is the Gurdwara running a free fast food place? Yeah, having a guy standing over Guru Ka Langar for an hour or more and talking to his buddy beside him is much cleaner. All that spit coming out of a person while they talk is very clean. And then you have others standing in line, while they get to the food, talking to the sevadaars and you get a flavor of their spit aswell. And hygiene was less important. Are you kidding me. Where does this backward thinking come from. Have you taken the time to read Gurbani. The Gurus were all for keeping everything clean for people like you in their sangat. It was germ free. And even some sangats free of you. Must have been a relaxed and happy sangat then. The queue systems has created the catering system. Hiring sevadaars for the royal kings. Using the Guru's system we have people sitting down and beginning to understand that I have to do seva aswell otherwise those serving me might not have someone serving them. It creates more compassion and humility in a person, but i guess in your mind that is a bad thing.

Whitehorse is one comedian here. He praises Balait da sher for the same points(added more) that other Singhs have presented here earlier than him. Instead of thanking these other guys, whitehorse fights with them. I guess whitehorse is just spitting in his own mouth, he doesn't need the sevadaar in the langar hall doing it for him. He needs to be more mature and people will take him seriously here.

Maybe people need to get the message back home that wearing supersized dastaars is being ridiculed in the west? Why not stick to a dastaar size like most people wear? Yes, I know people are going to get upset at the question but I'm going to pose it anyway.

You don't have to tell me, I understand it. But it has to be said, in my local high street a Sikh can walk by with bana and not be noticed or given a second look by even goray/kalay, however if someone was dressed like that and to walk down the street, even people who have nothing but respect for their Sikh neighbours would probably start to laugh. In any case I think people should tell those involved back home what is going on.

I can't argue with that Kharkoo. Fair point.

ADMIN EDIT: Whitehorse, please note mulitiple IDs are not allowed on this forum and neither is trying to impersonate other members like 'Only five'

I would avoid wearing leathers to the gurdwarras but if it was worn in form of a jacket or something, leave it at the door with the shoes I'd say out of respect. One big thing are leather handbags, I'm not sure how that issue could be avoided as elderly ladies also carry leather handbags. And then there are belts.....

Thats your own opinion. Please read the defintion of opinion here. it will help you to understand what is being said when it's Guru Sahib's system. If you can't accept history and our Sikh practices then there is no point on going any further with you. Next you'll say it is not written in stone(Guru's hand) for to sit on the ground in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj Darbar. Next your say it's not written in stone to put a man infront of the woman in Anand Karaj. These are our Guru's ways and history tells us they are. If you are so eager to find out, because I already know, then look into it yourself. The fact you want to present an argument without looking into the topic yourself and this causes you to not take Sikh history into consideration shows the lack of knowledge on the issue, on your part. The fact you cannot even acknowledge we Sikhs lower ourselves in the mind and body to recieve Guru Sahib's gift shows your lack of knowledge. There are bigger issues the Sants are dealing with. Why don't you talk to a Sant and see what they say about the queue system. No Sant will agree with it, but one thing they would say is picking an arguement for this system is a foolish mistake. It does not take a Sant to figure this one out. Not insulting you. Can you provide history of your assumptions. Why would a elder person have to do anything other than sit in the sangat and partake of the langar. It's up to the sevadaars who are able to do it. And if a elder had that much love for Guru Sahib where he is barely able to do the task, but still wanted to do it, he will serve in the Guru's sangat in the Guru's way. That's the beauty of Sikhs, they do whatever it takes to hold Sikhi higher than their own welfare. It would be good if you read the history of the old man Sikhs who gave their lives for Sikhi.

Lol now you're just being paranoid, next I won't be making silly proposals. I know very well the traditional way of serving langar and I also know there have been exceptions. A sant would uphold the honour of his Guru no matter what, so don't give me rubbish about a sant not bringing this up if they opposed it. Also you seem to believe it IS a big issue and worth arguing about or we wouldn't be having this (very tedious) conversation. If you believe that I and others are doing nindya by serving this way surely you'd want to do something about it and at least bring the issue up in the gurdwarra, it wouldn't be a big deal. Like I said go for it, noones stopping you, if it's so wrong, make it right and go and stand up for what you believe in. In your eyes the Gurus wishes are being dishonoured so go and make a change. p.s goodluck and goodnight! I'm off to bed and really hope thats the last of our convo seeing as we'll never see eye to eye and I'm sick of posting now.

Then contact a Sant and see what they say. Again it does not take a Sant to figure out, we need to follow Guru's way. <Mod cut> paranoid because i asked for proof? <Mod cut> This is not a big issue on the sense of being addressed from everything else that needs tp be addressed first, which is being done. But it is a big deal when you refuse to accept the reality of this discussion and it's Guru's way, which you speak against. So i and others addressed it. Mod Note: Only five, please keep it cool and avoid making insults against other members. Same applies to all other posters.

Okay so guess I won;t be getting many z's tonight. No I will not contact a sant, you're the one with the serving problem so you have the honour. Paranoid because you went on about 'next you'll be saying this, next you'll be saying that' when I most certainly will not. I still don't agree with you and never will but I'll always love the guru and nothing you say will ever change that. But I'm actually very tired of talking to you now so go make the change you want to see in gurdwarras instead of talking to me about it okay. Goodbye, rab rakh.

You brought up the Sant bit, and now you want others to do work that has already been done. Sants agree with Guru's way. It's that simple. Again for the third time it does not take a Sant to figure this out. What's stopping you from not saying it, when you already don't go with Guru's way on the langar practices. You won't agree with me! When did i voice my opinion. I present the Guru's way and you got mad and started slandering the Guru's way. Your love for Guru Sahib is your business and your words for his respect speaks for everything your about.

The Gurdwara is not a business, where effeciency is the aim. The aim is to instill Sikh values in people. The issue here is that people can't see how broken the queue system is. How blind people are to this reality, or purposely push the queue system because it's against Guru's way. For the latter people, they don't care what system is in the langar hall, as long as it's against Guru Sahib's way they are happy with it. Whitehorse and whyhellothere are these latter people on this site.

Yeah just as Shaheed Sant Bhindranwale was also a creation of congress as most liers claim Let me refresh your memory. Although the idea of formation of the Dal Khalsa was mooted by Bhai Gajinder Singh but it was certainly endorsed and backed by renowned Sikh intellectual Sirdar Kapur Singh, Professor of Sikhism. I guess Sirdar Kapur Singh was also a creation of congress http://www.dalkhalsa.com/Archives/Letters/05_Dec_06.html Dal Khalsa doesn't need a certificate from Badal to be called Panthic