ghorandhar

Veer jee the shabads were as follows: First Shabad: dIiKAw AwiK buJwieAw isPqI sic smyau ] dheekhiaa aakh bujhaaeiaa sifathee sach samaeo || Those who have accepted the Guru's Teachings, and who have found the path, remain absorbed in the Praises of the True Lord. iqn kau ikAw aupdysIAY ijn guru nwnk dyau ]1] thin ko kiaa oupadhaeseeai jin gur naanak dhaeo ||1|| What teachings can be imparted to those who have the Divine Guru Nanak as their Guru? ||1|| Second Shabad: horu ikqY Bgiq n hoveI ibnu siqgur ky aupdys ]1] hor kithai bhagath n hovee bin sathigur kae oupadhaes ||1|| There is no other way to perform devotional worship, except through the Teachings of the True Guru. ||1|| Third Shabad: siqgurU kw aupdysu suix qU hovY qyrY nwly ] sathiguroo kaa oupadhaes sun thoo hovai thaerai naalae || Listen to the Teachings of the True Guru - these shall go along with you Fourth Shabad: scu gur sbdu ijqY lig qrxw ] sach gur sabadh jithai lag tharanaa || True is the Word of the Guru's Shabad, grasping it, one is carries across. Last Shabad: suin aupdysu ihrdY bswvhu ] sun oupadhaes hiradhai basaavahu || Listen to the Teachings, and enshrine them in your heart. mn ieCy nwnk Pl pwvhu ]5] man eishhae naanak fal paavahu ||5|| O Nanak, you shall obtain the fruits of your mind's desires. ||5|| sbdu gurU suriq Duin cylw ] sabadh guroo surath dhhun chaelaa || The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple. Veer jee I hope you look at the shabads in relation to my previous post. I listen with respect to others, however is someone wishes to saying things which do not fit with these mahavak, then I have to fold my hands and say I ask for muafee, because my bhuddi (limited it may be) tells me to follow Guru jees message (updesh). No one is saying see the guru Granth Sahib jee as a glue and binding. What I do feel is that the Guru Granth Sahib jee is not a human, even Guru Nanak Dev jee although is human physical form, the jyot or Shabad was the guru, the phyical manifestation is shown saktar because like I said before, if we claim to follow the shabad and then show no satkar, we are merely hypocrits. Doing satkar we are also lowering ourselves. But Guru Nanak Dev jee made it clear to us who is the guru: Shabad Guru surat than chila (shabad above). There are thousands of shabads where guru jee is telling us to follow the message. However Guru jee also tells devotional worship which we should engage in. putting air conditioner in Gurdwaras or huge rajyee will not make guru jee warm does not make any sense to me (im not drawing the boundary lines, it just does not make sense to me). Does the Guru granth Sahib jee feel the heat or cold? For satkar we have been given a protocal, i.e sukasan, parkash, chaur sahib etc, the rest of the stuff we do is our own ideas, its not a sin if we do it (thats absurd in my opinion if people think that), but 200 years ago did people have less satkar because they did not have air conditioners. We have been told how to do satkar (sukashan, Parkash etc) however there is some confusion in alot of people over touching the palki legs etc. Bringing in all these versions of satkar have taken us away from guru jees message, we are more concerned with the latest way to show satkar and not listening to what guru jee told us: pIaU dwdy kw Koil ifTw Kjwnw ] peeoo dhaadhae kaa khol ddit(h)aa khajaanaa || When I opened it up and gazed upon the treasures of my father and grandfather, qw myrY min BieAw inDwnw ]1] thaa maerai man bhaeiaa nidhhaanaa ||1|| then my mind became very happy. ||1|| We should open the Guru Granth Sahib jee and not merely worship the pages a the treasure which our father (Guru jee) wrote is what will give us adholta and happiness. We are not longer with opening the Treasure and reading what our Father told us. I just want to say one last time, Im not saying I just see pages or glue, Guru jee makes it clear for us: Poti parmeshar ka than, The poti is the place of Akal Purakh where we can listen to the message, all respect should be shown to the Poti or Guru Granth Sahib jee so that we can understand and follow the Shabad.

Veer jee only with maharajs kirpa will i be blessed with avasta. Mahraj kirpa kari. All I was saying that doing satkar and seva is really good, but without following Guru jees message, then we are missing the point, both satkar and follwing the gur shabad goes hand in hand. There is a fine line between stakar and karam khand, I did not draw that line in my post because the line is so fine, my avasta does not permit me to do so, but you can carry on drawing it. I dont no anything thing about flashing lights or emantions of them (im being totally honest), neither do I care about them neither am I that interested to follow what other people say, Yes i listen with respect to others, however their beliefs are not a revelation. only gurbani is. Why do I not follow blindly what other people say? because i follow Guru nanak Dev jee : dIiKAw AwiK buJwieAw isPqI sic smyau ] iqn kau ikAw aupdysIAY ijn guru nwnk dyau ]1] (ang 150) I try to understand what guru jee says, I may say things which you think are my chutrai, however I will try and follow the message of guru jee, not flanna flanna person. I tried to explain that from my understanding, we can do all the satkar and devotional service, however if we ingore the message of guru jee, was there any real satkar involved or was it just for show? Guru jee tells us which devotional worship we should be concerned with: horu ikqY Bgiq n hoveI ibnu siqgur ky aupdys ] (ang 22) You are right death is round the corner, thats why I said: siqgurU kw aupdysu suix qU hovY qyrY nwly ] also: scu gur sbdu ijqY lig qrxw ] Veer jee the only way we can get avasta like you said im missing is through the shabad guru, So many times guru jee tells us to listen to the message, but we choose not to, having air conditions is more important that gur shabad veechar: suin aupdysu ihrdY bswvhu ] mn ieCy nwnk Pl pwvhu ]5] I do not have avasta as you elaborated on, but as the mahavak explains before, if I listen to Guru jees message and place it within my heart, then Man ichhai Nanak Fal pavai, Guru jee will give me. Guru jee has made it clear what the guru is what our relationship is with the guru: sbdu gurU suriq Duin cylw ]

Veer Rupinder Singh jee, I agree. A good summary of the reality.

Im just wondering why the every Sikh in the City concerned are liable for this disrespect? I no the Khanda is not gurbani, but wil you take them on the Nishan Sahibs aswell, because of the fear of disrespect? Im just wondering what you think? What about gurbani which was on guru jees sheilds, swords and armour, would this also be disrespect since blood and swords would have been slashed against it? Just sending these questions, maybe someone can help me understand.

I love Bhai Randhir Singh jees kirtan. Excellent ragi. If anyone has his contact details, can you please send them to me.

Veer jee I suggest you read the eye witness account of operation blue star by Singh Sahib Giani Kirpal Singh who was the jathedhar of Akal Takaht Sahib. according to his book and the evidence presented, Sant jee was shot, the Singhs realised that time was not on there side, they decided to (along with Sant jee) to storm out of Akal Takaht Sahib and take the Govermnemt on in a head on confrontation out in the open, it was their last stand and they knew by doing so, they would become shahid. So wounded and shot, its is clear that the Singhs and Sant jee came out in the open and took on the Goverment. The bravery of the Singhs like those previously is without comparision. Giani Kirpal Singh jees book has been translated into English, its a must read.

Veer V jee, I agree with your observations. The problem is that people accept what some sant or some Singh at the gurdwara says as being revelation, rather than accepting the Shabad guru as the revelation. I do believe its hard to draw the line between satkar and just doing things which have no importance in Sikhi. However sometimes we forget what is the guru. If simply accepting the pages as being the guru, then we have totally forgot why Sikhi was created and its message, all we are doing is what Bhagat Kabir jee said to Hindus in the following shabad: ਆਸਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀਉ ਕੇ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ੯ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ੫ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਮਾਲਿਨੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਪਾਤੀ ਤੋਰੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਹਨ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ ਭੂਲੀ ਮਾਲਨੀ ਹੈ ਏਉ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੈ ਦੇਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਡਾਰੀ ਫੂਲ ਸੰਕਰਦੇਉ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਦੇਵ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਤੋਰਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਿਸ ਕੀ ਸੇਉ ॥੨॥ ਪਾਖਾਨ ਗਢਿ ਕੈ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਛਾਤੀ ਪਾਉ ॥ ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥ ਭਾਤੁ ਪਹਿਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਲਾਪਸੀ ਕਰਕਰਾ ਕਾਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਭੋਗਨਹਾਰੇ ਭੋਗਿਆ ਇਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਮੁਖ ਛਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ ਮਾਲਿਨਿ ਭੂਲੀ ਜਗੁ ਭੁਲਾਨਾ ਹਮ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਹਮ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਖੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੫॥੧॥੧੪॥ (479) Would Guru jee be more happy if someone follows the updesh (message) or one who merely shows satkar? A example which I once heard is as follows: A father sent his son a letter explaining that the sugar price has fallen, buy loads of sugar and then you can sell it when the price goes up. The son gets the letter and does loads of things with it. He puts it in a palki, does chaur sahib, lights dhoof has a channani, does everything as we do with the Shabad guru. The father then comes to see his son a year later and says did you recieve my message? the Son says yes, come and look at all the satkar and seva I have done your letter. The father sees the letter and the seva/satkar done and is happy, he then asks: How much of the sugar did you buy? the Son says I did not buy any, All I did was seva and satkar of the letter. The point of the story is, its all good doing seva and satkar, however if the message is ignored, what did the son get? Satgur ka udpesh soon too hovai terai nal (listen to the message/updesh of satguru, only that shall go with you) Anand Sahib.

As shiva or Shiv means akal purakh, and Hari means Akal Purakh, Takhur means Akal Purakh etc within the Guru Granth Sahib jee, in this shabad by Guru Gobind Singh jee, Shiva refers to Akal Purakh and not the Hindu Diety. In this shabad there is no veechar of the Hindu god. Shiv in Gurbani can mean parmatama for example: Jugat Shiv Raihta (1407) to remain fixed in Akal purakh. Where a story is given regarding Shiva, then in gurbani it can be referring to the Hindu God Shiva: (Shiv kai baan shir katioo) Shiv in the Guru Granth Sahib can mean Shakti, Bhai Vir Singh jee in his Guru Granth Sahib Kosh gives Shatki as one of the meanings for Shiva. Akal Purakh represents Shatki, its the attribute of Akal Purakh. Shiv can also mean knowledge, however in the Shabad Deh Shiva bar mohe hai, I think it means shakti (akal purakh). Look at Bhai Vir Singh jees kosh for more on the word and where it comes from. When looking at the dasam granth jee, we can find the answers of what Shiva means in this shabad: ਨਮੋ ਕਾਰਿਤਕਯਾਨੀ ਸਿਵਾ ਸੀਤਲਾਯੰ ॥੧੦॥੨੨੯॥ Thou art the power of Kartikeya and Shiva etc.! I salute thee.10.229. (Chandi Chitra Only Akal Purakh is saluted by Guru Gobind Singh jee. People try and be clever by picking out certain lines without reading the whole composition of manipulating it. Write at the start of the Composition, Guru jee always made it clear for us in the dasam granth what his thoughts were for example: Pritam bhagauri Simar kai Guru nanak .... Pauri 1 Chandi di // Khanda Pritmai saj kai jin sabh saisar upaya (pauri 2) chandi di // Both these pauri are only in praise of Akal Purakh and the Gurus. If we read the dasam granth compositions front to back rather than back to front, people would not get into such confusion.

Its a shame that the Akali Dal which has a great history and thousands of people who joined the movement to become shahid is today run by people like Badal.

Bhai Vir Singh jee wrote quite a few Sikh Novels. Bijay Singh, Sundari, Satwant Kaur etc. Everyone knows Bhai Vir Singh jee did so much for Sikh history and Gurbani, but people do realise how important he was for punjbai Literature, before Bhai Vir Singh jee novels and writing in prose did not exist. Everything was in poetry. I would also recommend his poems, they are really good. Principle Gurdial Singh phull is really good and was one of the best writers in the 60/70/80s. Like Bhai Vir Singh jee, anyone who read his books and met him would instantly would be influenced to follow Sikhi. Principle jee also did alot of punjabi literature, they lived amazing and hard lives, when everyone was turning away from punjabi, they were fighting for the existence of punjabi. There are alot of novels out there, best thing to do is go India and spend a few hours in a bookshop.

All though prof sahib singh also one of the member spoke against bhausaria mindset(taking out bhagata di bani) by using vaikhayaran. When you carefully read his book, you will his approach was quite extreme.. its like bhausarias were at one extreme, prof sahib singh were at other extreme rejecting all the notions bhausaria raised on bhagatat's socio-religious life.. instead of answering these delusion people sansa's(dubtas), prof sahib singh start rejecting bhagat'as socio-relgious life (uthanka)/ their mysticism instead start promoting his own metaphoric interpertations of gurbani and claimed this is only one way to interpret gurbani. Puratan samparda's and including panthic ratan- bhai vir singh ji also spoke against bhausaria's but they spoke against bhausaria staying within the limit of Gurmat Sidhant, they did not rejected key factors (concept of sargun/nirgun, concept of avtar, various deeper interpertations in bhagata di bani) in sikh theology nor they made sikhi distored just because they have to counter bhausaria's. I say it again..i m not promotiong vikayaran shouldnt be used at all but i do beleive people who beleive in vikayaran is the one and only way to interpreet gurbani and counter arguments bhausarias had against bhagata di bani are infact doing same damage as bhausaria's are doing.. here is the clear cut example.... once there was a maharaj was taking rest on his bed and his servant duty was to make sure there is no flies or mosquitos going around and bugging him in his sleep....after few minutes,.. flies came to bug his king.. start sitting on king's nose and making noises...servant tried to get rid of flies by various ways,, at last he became soo angry that he thought of using talvar(sword) to kill the fly who was sitting on his king's nose.. he tried killing the fly with his "GOOD INTENTION" but killed the king instead. so khalsa ji having good intention is not the only thing you need to fight dangerous mindset but you need bibek buddhi which people who are on both extremes lack. I think Prof Sahib Singh jee clearly says that this is the knowledge of gurbani viakaran or interpretation I have at this moment. He clearly says that someone else can continue this project, A humble thing to say in my mind, he does not say this is the only way. Another example is the Raag mala, Prof Sahib jee clearly says he does not really understand it but does not reject it. So I dont think Prof Sahib ever said that my interpretation is final. The other thing to note is Bhai Vir Singh jees translation being clearly similar to viakaran (as ive shown in a different post). There is also Bhai Vir Singh jees Guru GRanth sahib Kosh which specifically use's referance to grammatical terms. So I do not really understand why people try and seperate people like Prof Sahib Singh jee and Bhai Vir singh jee. Personally I do not think prof Sahib Singh went out of gurmat sidhant or atleast from reading all his books and his interpretation of the Guru granth Sahib jee, ive not come across such a suggestion. What people like Prof Sahib Singh, Bhai Vir Singh jee, Sant baba gurbachan Singh jee do is give a great source of understanding gurbani. Where Prof Sahib Singh is different from the others is his definite answers to grammatical matters which without, would leave the panth with no answers from linguists and other people who question the method used by Guru jee, often offensive words such as illiterate were used. Personally I think we should take what we can from all the bidwan rather than splitting people into samparda or giving ligitimacy due to the name of the samparda (rather than what the person actually wrote or believes). Where I agree with Sant Gurbachan Singh jee I would take that on board, where with Bhai Vir Singh jee I will take that. So I agree with your belief (if I understood correctly) which is to look at what all people have written and not specifically say one is correct and the rest is all wrong. However, where we make comments of viakaran or question it, the best way to have a healthy discussion is to identify where specifically (for example a shabad or particular rule) that grammar does not make sense and not just to make comments that viakaran is changing laaga matra or that gurbani viakaran is wrong. The question is how? and Where? personally I would like to know so that I can also learn something new, without discussing what exactly is wrong with grammar, like what shabad or what rule of grammar makes no sense, how can we firmly say there is something wrong with it? Making comments without substance or proof will convince no one. I was listening to khata by Bhai Kulwant Singh jee (Ludhiana) and he said something about the interpretation of a particular word, he said these things are for us to discuss and not to fight over (but to try and understand), but when we are on the stage, our aim should be how to make the sangat a Sikh and not start doing tu tu maih maih about each other. I feel that today, both sides can be guilty of such things.

I think both you and Namastang may have misunderstood Bhai Sahib. He's talking about a group of people who want to change the spellings in Gurbani, citing viakaran as their reason. I think that speech is a few years old - I remember that the group (don't recall their name) actually printed a few Gutkey Sahibs with revised spellings. That, I'm sure you'll agree, is just wrong. Bhai Baljinder Singh Ji is actually well educated and in fact developed the www.rarasahib.com website himself, and personally replies to e-mails sent there if he has time. I hope you're not referring to all the Mahapursh on that stage? As far as Bhai Baljinder Singh ji is concerned, I know that the Maryada at Rarasahib absolutely forbids asking for money. I know one of the Mahapurkhs sitting towards the back, and they are a true gem of the panth, a true Sant. I can't speak for the rest but you are right that true Sants are very few in number in this age. Thank you Matheen jee, I did not know people were trying to change spellings, however there is alot of debate within the panth between different spellings in different Guru granth sahibs. But if printing is made wrong, that is for the guru panth khalsa to decide and take action, not individual people. So I agree this should not be done. I also gave specific referance to a sant, but most of the sant ive come across (ive come across only a few good ones) fall into the category of taking money, cursing people and generally keeping people in fear. I have never met Bhai Baljinder Singh jee and have no intention to make comments of people I have never met. I was only writing from my own personal experience. My point of making this comment is that its not enough to just do parchar, sants in alot of places have become apart of the problem along with deprivation.

Its amazing how gurbani viakaran is being presented as being used to prove bhagat bani as being against gurbani, unless I missunderstood, this is the suggestion being made by the speaker. Maybe people should pick up a gurbani viakaran book before they make such assertions. It was prof Sahib Singh jee who answered the book, 'satgur bina hor kachi bani'. Prof Sahib Singh jee showed how gurbani viakaran shows that bhagat bani does not contradict the Gurus shabads. The Ludhiana Sabha which was created to prove and take bhagat bani out of the Guru Granth Sahib had no answer to Prof Sahib Singh jee. But Bhai Sahib jee makes a good point about our identity and our dastar. However I feel deprevation is also contributing to a failure in Sikh youth taking up a gursikhi roop. When people stuggle to have enough money for roti or keep eating aloo or dal everyday, people only see education as a way out of this cycle of poverty. parchar is needed but the paanth should also have done more to combat poverty, living in pinds ive seen this first hand. If the paanth did this, both the hearts and minds of people would be won. Instead what happens is these sants rob people of the little money they have because they claim to be able to solve their problems. Or like Sant malkiat Singh jee, they become property dealers telling us what we can do and what we cant. When someone like me and my chacha jee stand up to such sants, they curse our family saying everything will go wrong for us. These sants are part of the problem. Those true sants have been a bad name by the majority.

So, before then nobody understood Gurbani If I'm not mistaken, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji was Mukhi of the Taksal, so how can you say Taksalis don't accept these concepts? Viakaaran on it's own doesn't uncover the deeper meanings of Gurbani, much of which is poetry and is not to be taken literally. To start with, Jii, it is important to learn correct pronounciation, where to pause etc. For this, Taksali teachers are really good - it's their job. When it comes to understanding Gurbani, do not limit yourself to one approach - as your avastha grows, each word will take on a different meaning. Always think of Guru Sahib as your Guru, never just a book. Grammar always existed, its another matter that we understood the names which were given for the rules. How did Bhai Vir Singh jee translate gurbani which is so close to grammar? the knowledge was clearly with him. A good example is the shabad Lakh karrori band na pari. Have alook at Bhai Vir singh jees translation and explanation and then look at people who translated that shabad according to grammar. You will see that although the principles of gurbani grammar had never been published, Bhai Vir Singh jee translation is correct to grammar and although he does not use grammatical words (such as naam, vasheshan etc) he shows a clear understanding of the meanings of such concepts. I believe there are some countries who do not teach English grammar like the UK, but in India we are adamant on English grammar. in countrys like the UK English is spoken as a first language and they dont necessarily need grammar, but for people in India, without grammar we would have no hope. the same works with gurbani viakaran, the language was spoken according to Viakaran, although people did not learn grammar they could still apply the principle like people in the UK do with English. As language develops however, the old way of speaking has changed and gradually without grammar we struggle to understand how gurbani is pronounced or understood. My grandad for example never knew what grammar was, however he translated gurbani and pronounced gurbani correctly according to viakaran, the reason is because of the spoken language which he learnt. My great grandad could not read, however his translation and pronounciation of gurbani was the same as gurbani viakaran. As punjabi developed it changed drastically from my grandads generation to mine, its changed so much that spoken punjabi no longer helps and we have to look towards grammar. This understanding of spoken language gives us a clear indication why Bhai Vir Singh jees translation is so close to gurbani viakaran. Matheen jee, i mean that taksalis do not accept the concepts of grammar. Sant Gurbachan Singh jee was the mukhi of the taksal but the taksalis ive heard who do paath do not even bother to follow the bindia he has put in his book. I do not understand what you mean about viakaran not undercovering the deeper meaning, viakaran is grammar, grammar is not only intended to undercover the deeper meaning but also explain the system which the language works, without grammar nothing would make sense, for example the word 'there' and 'their' would mean the same without deeper research. If you read some books on gurbani viakaran you will see how viakaran itself does not say take things literally. What grammar does is help explain where the pronounciation and pause is, for example where in rehras sahib we have the shabad: akha jeeva visrai mar jaoo, akhan akhauu sacha naoo. The words 'jaoo' and 'naoo' have oora and unkar at the end of the word. This indicates that a bindi be put on and the shabad in written in first person. Without grammar a language cannot make sense. I have found that rather than appreciating the amazing system which guru jee has applied, we just think it is nonesense, im not saying you are, but im talking about the general approach of people that i have met. When I have discussed gurbani grammar with linguists and people who have deep knowledge of grammar especially french people, they are shocked at the amazing system and sophisticated nature of gurbani which leaves no doubt in its superiority. Rather than embracing principles we seem to be turning the clock back 100 years ago when Dr Trump a Christian missionary declared Guru Nanak DEv jee to be an illiterate person who could not even spell his name correctly. What grammar did was prove such people wrong and infact showed how much ignorance there was towards gurbani. I do agree that you should not just look at one approach, after all we are supposed to be a Sikh.

Veer jii I would differ from some of the opinons given by my other veers. It does not matter what group you learn from, what matters is what the teacher is teaching. I would suggest you learn gurbani viakaran (grammar). Until you learn grammar you will not understand why bindia should be pronounced, or why unkars exist, how it changes the meaning etc. A good example of this would be the different spelling of 'Nanak' in the guru granth sahib. So far ive not found a taksali who accepts these concepts, but not only do they fail the accept these concepts but they do not give an alternative answer. This is only based on my experience. Sant baba Gurbachan Singh jees book is excellent and can give you a good guide on the kinds of words which can have bindia, phairs haaha etc. its good for its time because before sant Gurbachan Singh jee there was hardely any book the topic, the problem with relying on this approach is that it does not understand grammar so you will never progress if you stick to this ideology. I suggest you learn from a person who knows gurbani viakaran, whether it be a missionary or any other person. I think AKJ have good knowledge on this topic so maybe you could find a person from their organisation. Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara has written a book on Gurbani viakaran and out of all the books i have on topic its probably the best guide for beginners, he did good work for the panth. The other option in Prof Sahib Singh jees book gurbani viakaran which is a difficult book but the best one written so far. His translation which is on the net is also a good guide. These books are good for learning, but you need someone to teach you because at first none of the concepts will be hard to grasp. Finally, dont limit your attempt to learn gurbani to what flanna flanna says, your research and hard work is what will make you progress. Hope all goes well veer jee.

Veer Inder Singh jee, I never said he was.

Some Sikhs do not believe in Kaljug. They believe kaljug and satjug is a state of mind. Where deeds are good, there is satjug, where bad its kaljug. So the words have been redefined as many others in gurbani. This is something some people do not believe in and say its radical. Whatever you believe in phen jee, the most important essence of this shabad is that a gursikh is carefree from kaljug. Because of Guru jee how can this be kaljug? We have nothing to worry about if we follow the gurus instructions, therefore guru jee is saying why call this kaljug when so many gursikhs are doing your simran or the khalsa walks the earth upholding the truth. In the same way a Gursikh is not interested in heavon and hell, a gursikh is not interested in different ages. Guru jee is saying why do we think this is age of kaljug when Waheguru resides in all (in other words kaljug is not bad, the lord resides in all, therefore by referance to kaljug we are calling people bad, guru jees message is: Sabh maih jot jot hai soee, tis di chanan sabh maih chanan hoee), rather we should be worried about our own deeds. The following is based on Prof Sahib Singh jees translation. O' unapproachable Lord, the human with these organs (body eyes etc) cannot reach you (do darshan). Only that mortal can do your darshan who has good destiny written on their forehead. (O'bhai on that person whose) mercyful lord has bestowed his mercy, the true guru grants the lords name (the gift of simran). O'satguru, you have even saved in kaljug (which out of the other ages is supposed to be considered to be the worse) even those fools, dirty (stained with) urine all have come within your service (by listening to you they do service to the lord and meditate on the lord) Pause. O' Lord, you yourself are the creator who established this whole creation, you give hope to this creation, you reside within the creation (then how can there be a good age? or a bad age? Even though they say kal jug is the worst of the four ages, even then:) Daram raj is wonder stuck (because by the gurus mercy, people turn away from the flaws) and people are falling at your feet (So if we consider the old beliefs, we have to say that this age is infact not bad, in this age people are doing good deeds) O' bhai, in satjug, in treta and in duapar these were said to be the good ages. (but in fact the truth which can be seen is that) kaljug out of all the ages is the best. In this age, as we act so are the rewards we recieve. a mortal because of another (the flaws of another) does not wander. O' Bhai, (whichever age it may be, you always protect the honour of your bhagats) you do whatever your bhagats ask from you, this has been your nature from old and ancient times. O' lord (your servant Nanak also) with both hands folded (at your door) be for this gift, that you bless your saints with darshan. Sorry for any mistakes in translation.

Veer Rupinder Singh jee you make some valid points about shabad being most important. the focus is on the shabad, but our guru jee gave us a khazana on performing the shabad. Where guru jee said the shabad is guru, guru jee also said the contemplation is the sevak. The same can be said with kirtan, where the shabad is the guru, the raag is the sevak. The two is what makes the raas. I cannot say that a person who does kirtan out of raag has no jeevan or cannot have any jeevan, no one knows what the bhavana or raas of the person inside is, however on the gurmat stage i think raag kirtan should be given importance. Sometimes I think people out of hankar have attacked people who might have great bhavana in singing gurbani which might be out of raag, whats inside the mind is really important. When I go harmander sahib, i go for a few days to listen to kirtan, I see people of the older generation who dont care what the raag or tune is, but they sing out with their hearts because the essence of the shabad is what touches them. I might be trying to do kirtan in raag, however i recognise i dont have what these bazoorg have inside them. There are two sides of the coin however, the raagi is presenting something, his job should be to present the kirtan as guru jee has told him. I believe you will find that alot of the older sants did kirtan in raag, however they were simple tunes. As the level of the sangat became lower the sants tryed to play simpler taals and bandishs to get the sangat involved. The sangat over the past 50/60 years no longer wants to get involved with the kirtan or listen to it, my grandad used to tell me storys of smagams in the past which were all in raag and the whole sangat would sing. What has happened today is that the sants level has become lower than the sangat and they dont even bother to sing gurbani. There are alot of sants who were renowned for being great experts in Raag kirtan. Ive been told that Sant baba Attar Singh jee had deep knowledge of Raag. Although i cant confirm this through any sources, I do no people who learnt from his kirtan taksal and they have deep knowledge of gurmat sangeet. Another Sant who not only had a great jeevan but did great seva for the Sikh paanth is sant baba Sarvan Singh Ghandarav. baba jee was from the village dumelli (near adampur). This village is next to mine so i have first hand knowledge of baba jees influence. Baba Sarvan Singh published 7 books on Kirtan and Raags, they contains nirdharat raag, partaals, guldastas and mishrat raga, the shabads in the books are from Guru Granth Sahib jee, Dasam Granth, sarbloh granth, bhai gurdas vara/kabbitt/swaiya and Bhai Nand lal Singh. Baba jee could play over 10 instruments. Baba jee was not just about raag kirtan, but they transformed peoples lives and in a small village in Jullandhar district he taught people kirtan for free, people came to him took amrit and learnt loads of different saaj. In his books you will see bibia playing tanti saaz, his vidyala was not limited to people who want to become raagi's but was for everyone. So there have been sants who had great jeevans. Alot of raagis I know have great jeevans and one of my ustads who is quite old now could not afford to buy shoes for his long walk to learn kirtan in the 1940s/50s. The only thing which kept them going was gurbani and naam simran, even though he had loads of raag knowledge already, he could have thought: forget learning more kirtan, i want to make some money and make a jhata. There was a famous raagi called Sundar Singh who was a hazoori ragi at harmander sahib in the 1940s. Rabindernath tagore jee went to darbar sahib and at that time bhai Sundar Singh jee was doing kirtan, he loved the kirtan so much that Rabindernath jee apporached him and asked him if he would go to Bengal and stay with him and do personal programmes singing gurbani. Bhai Sundar Singh jee refused and said he could never leave darbar Sahib. Rabindernath Tagore said to Bhai Sahib: I will pay you 10 times more than what you get as a hazoori ragi, why do you not come? But bhai Sahib simply did not want to leave his guru or darbar Sahib. (This story is recorded in the first ever gurmat sangeet book by Bhai Gian Singh). So there were Raagis with great sharda and belief in guru jee. Todays kirtani would run at the chance to make loads of money even if it meant leaving darbar sahib and playing for someone in private. I think that its not just the raagis who have bought the level down and have no jeevan, but its also the sants, parcharask, akhand paati, the whole nation itself is lacking in every department. We see people with no jeevan because its what we have experienced, however this does not mean its always been like this. I do feel sorry for alot of raagis and parcharaks however, where is the respect from the sangat? we treat them like rubbish, whether they do in kirtan in raag or not we should have satkar for them. They leave their homes to do kirtan for the sangat so that we can listen to kirtan every day at the gurdwara, they are not on great incomes, they get treated badly by the committees etc. Its just sad to see the disrespect we show to each other. Doing kirtan in raag should not really become a barrier, the shabad is still the same whether in raag or not. modern day raagis have this habit of playing fancy tunes in the kali (where no theres no singing) those kali sections were supposed to be for the sangat to repeat the line which the raagi has sung, if we listen to people like Prof Kartar Singh jee, we will see how he makes his students behind him sing in the kali encouraging the sangat to also sing in. Where barriers have come is the low level of the sangat and raagis not wanting to dedicate there lives to this art (gurmat sangeet). Sant baba Sarvan Singh jee showed how hard work can help raise the level, the level can only be raised if effort is made, if we dont try nothing will happen. On the hand there are to many people like me who talk but do nothing

Sohila Sahib is not presented in the roop of kirtan when done late evening. The roop of kirtan has different rules to that of doing paath. For example in kirtan a shlok is a complete shabad, however when we do paath, until we read all the shlok and then the pauri, the shabad does not become complete. These rules are further demonstrated when we take a hukamnama and when we do kirtan. A hukamnama is not complete until all the shlok's and puari is read, however simply singing the shlok or a pauri would be enough to complete the shabad. Since the rules of the two differ (doing kirtan and paath differ) it is essential to understand how these rules work. Maybe the rules of paath and Kirtan are also different when it comes to doing Sahoila sahib as paath as compared to singing a shabad in the roop of kirtan. To be honest im not sure if time matters in kirtan, although it exists in sangeet, does it necessary exist in gurmat sangeet? its one we can debate on without definite answer, unless we have guidance from gurbani or history, personally Ive not come across any guidance from history or gurbani. However, I totally agree with what Veer V jee has said, my current understanding is representing in his post. At darbar Sahib, the old maryada was to split the times of jhatas according to the chaunki of raag. for example there was bilawal dee chaunki, or after rehras sahib there was Jaitsri de chaunki. These principles have slowly disappeared as today people do not even bother to do kirtan in raag, never mind according to a specific time. I do believe kirtan should only be done in raag. If we take raags out of Sikhi, the whole organisation of the guru granth sahib is taken away. Other than Japjee sahib and shloks etc at the end of the Guru granth sahib most of gurbani is structured around Raags. If doing kirtan in Raag was a choice then guru jee would not have organised the Guru Granth Sahib and shabads on such a subject. Just look at the tattkra of the guru granth sahib and we see the importance of Raags. Further, in gurbani itelf we see the praise of Raags and guru jee even telling us to do kirtan in raag: Har utam har prabh gavia, kar naad bilawal raag. Its unfortunate that we dont listen to guru jee.

Veer SunnybondSingh jee, im not saying you specifically are. You are simply asking for historical referance, others are questioning shahidi. I dont think it matters what you mix Sukha with, why drink Sukha? for what purpose? People will take medicine which contains sharab or other drugs because they have an illness and not normally out of choice.

I think Veer Mista jee has made some good points. We should follow Gurbani, history is not our guru, whatever it is claimed people have done or taken should not conclude that we should follow the same path. I also feel that we divided Shahidi of gursikhs according to our sects. No longer is a person considered as a shahid of the Khalsa Panth. If we look at the Gursikhs of the misl period they followed whatever the guru panth Khalsa decided. Do we today follow the guru Panth Khalsa? the same Guru panth khalsa which prohibits nasha. See the difference between Gursikhs then and today? while those gursikhs of the misl period followed the Guru Panth Khalsa, we openly challenge it. And then we say we need panthic ekta. Sorry for going of topic but Preferance was given By Guru Gobind Singh jee to the Khalsa: Inn he ke kirpa ki sajai ham hai, nah moh soo gareeb karoraprai (Dasam granth). It was not given to the Nihangs, Damdami Tasal, Nirmala etc. All the praise which guru jee gave was to the Khalsa and no one can change what Guru jee wrote. We need to consider these concepts: why do they exist? why was all praise given to the Khalsa? Today we have divided ourselves into certain groups and its so painful to see how this division has corrupted us so much that not only do we try to attach jhata labels to shahids, but we also try to discredit other shahids. Just look at Babbar and Sant Jarnail Singh topic. This is all the consequence of failing to follow the Guru Panth Khalsa.

'The fear of Waheguru is my bhang (rather than consuming bhang, fear of waheguru is guru jees bhang), My mind/contemplation (to look after the bhang which should be the fear of Waheguru), is the pouch. (The bhang which I consume i.e the fear of Waheguru) I am intoxicated which has made me free from worldly attachment. Both my hands (To get alms) are a bowl, (my Atma) has the hungar of your darshan. (For this reason), May I forever beg (for darshan) at your door'. (1) The above is a translation of the first four lines. Guru jee rejected the idea of consuming bhang and told us what we should consume and how consuming the fear of Waheguru will actually make you free.

ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੨ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਭਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਂਗ ਖਲੜੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ ਮੈ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਅਤੀਤੁ ॥ ਕਰ ਕਾਸਾ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਭੂਖ ॥ ਮੈ ਦਰਿ ਮਾਗਉ ਨੀਤਾ ਨੀਤ ॥੧॥ ਤਉ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਕਰਉ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ ਮੈ ਦਰਿ ਮਾਗਤੁ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਪਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕੇਸਰਿ ਕੁਸਮ ਮਿਰਗਮੈ ਹਰਣਾ ਸਰਬ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਚੜ੍ਹ੍ਹਣਾ ॥ ਚੰਦਨ ਭਗਤਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਇਨੇਹੀ ਸਰਬੇ ਪਰਮਲੁ ਕਰਣਾ ॥੨॥ ਘਿਅ ਪਟ ਭਾਂਡਾ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਵਰਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਵੇ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਦਰਿ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 721} The first line says makes it clear which bhang we should have. Its not the one some of our veers take.

Veer Inder Singh jee you have on many occasions agreed on the supremacy of the Akal Takhat. The fact is that many issues of this jhata has shown their lact of respect for the Akal takhat, if they had respect they would not change the panthic Sikh rehit maryada or do parcahar contrary to panth. Veer anom jee you said the following: 'we all differ on our opnions, but if u think guru je wont love his sikhs for not reading raag maalka, even i theyre only doing it because they dont kno better, ure seriously wrong' If i said the same but for people who dont read the dasam granth because they dont know any better and you say that is wrong, do you not see the paradox? Refusing to read the Guru Granth Sahib has been given the green light, but on the dasam granth issue its the red light. Quite simply we should follow the guru panth khalsa and the supremacy of the Akal Takhat, but people dont make this remarks because of affilations and/or failure to recognise the above concepts and principles.

Veer Inder Singh jee, you asking questions again. lol erm no. Most of the Akj i have met used vulgar language regarding the ragmala. The fact that they dont read raagmala, make people re take amrit to join their jhata and create doubt about one of the kakkar is enough to make me conclude they dont believe in the guru panth khalsa, and you conclude they dont divide the paanth. You have jumped to defend the Akal takhat on many occasions but then make statements like that. And no, ive shown you an audio of the SMC Ludhiana using dasam granth qoutes when teaching students.