pedrorizzo

Sikh Council has not been set up by Sikh Federation. It was set up by Gurmel Singh who is independent of any jathebandi. It is a national body composed of all major UK jathebandian including Akj, federation, Taksal, ramgharia community, ravidassia community, bhatra community and many others. It is incorrect to state that it was set up by the Sikh Federation. For a start many other Sikh jathebandian would not have joined it if it was started by the Federation.

I wonder if people realise that the date of the protest is a poor choice for a start as noone will be in parliament at that time lol. I wonder if Bal at Sikh Channel thought about that before he coined his dramatic D-Day. Can someone remind me why exactly should the Sikh Council be dictated to by a TV channel to take the lead on an event which was not organised by them and is doomed to fail for so many reasons? As mentioned above, the position statement was released by the Council because they were under pressure to declare their position, and for no other reason. Actually the Council has shown alot of maturity and has tried to be impartial. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the TV channels and some of the leaders of constituent jathebandian.

sikh council uk had to give this public statement at this late stage because the public/members of the sangat and sikh channel demanded it. It was not the intention of the Sikh council to engage in divisive politics. However, the Sikh channel came forward and organised an event and Instructed the Sikh council to take the lead on it. This is wrong as the Sikh Council needs to maintain its independent desicion making and should not be dictated to by the Sikh Channel. Also it was creating confusion amongst the sangat as to who was behind this event and the degree of Sikh council organising it. Conversely, this opens up the debate as to what the actual role of the Sikh channel is. Is it to cover events organised by jathebandian? Or is it to organise events in the first place? What is the role of media in general? You have to be very careful here and decide what role you want or think that a media channel should play.

I dont expect Sikhs to sit quiet. Neither do I expect Sikhs to go out and attack random people, cars and buses that have got nothing to do with the beadbi. Do you think that following in the footsteps of muslims is a good thing? Although I have to admit that I wouldnt mind if the INDIVIDUAL who did the beadbi was killed. Persuing legal channels and getting justice peacefully is the best and only real viable option. These regular episodes of beadbi are just provocation to get the Sikhs to rise up so that the government has another opportunity to squash us like in 84 and set us back another 20 years. We are falling into the trap by doing exactly what they want.

Educationally Sikhs are doing very well. Most sikh young people go on to higher education. Those that dont often continue in successful family businesses. Most Sikhs are relatively well off compared to other communities. Politically Sikhs are weak. Not enough Sikh MPs, councillors etc therefore Sikh influence in the higher tiers of society such as government, funding, community resources etc is pretty weak. Sikhs themselves are rich but sikh institutions are poor. Gurdwaras are rich but elections, community in fighting and lack of vision means that they tend not be of any big community value other than a place where ceremonies are carried out. There are no Sikh hospitals, very few sikh schools, charity organisations etc.

playing games where you shoot people and fight wars are good as it strengthens the warrior spirit and conditions our minds for yudh. A good exercise is to do simran loudly whilst playing the shoot em up as it will also develop bir raas. However, other games such as social type games are a waste of time as they promote kaam and greed.

This is vile and shameful behaivour. Somebody did beadbi so lets go and smash some random peoples cars and smash some random buses. Pure idiotic. I suppose they think that they are going to solve beadbi issues by doing that? We are lucky that the cops didnt start firing live rounds like they did in ludhiana and bhikhi. Sometimes it seems like singhs nowadays WANT another 1984 to happen.

I believe that I do have some answers and solutions that others do not have. I have stepped forward, will step forward now and will continue to step forward. The things that I want to see happen will ultimately happen and the people that I need to meet will also be met. I will do my bit you dont need to worry yourself about that. Regarding Daduwal, I dont like the guy or respect him. But I choose not to share the information that I have, as it is one thing, not liking someone, and it is a totally different thing to do someone over. And I choose not to do him over, or even attempt to. There is some truth in what you said about if Sikhs were not radical, then our history would be different. However, that is only half the story. If Sikhs were not political animals, intelligent strategists and even 'cowardly' peaceful law abiding citizens, then Sikhism would have been wiped out and we would be dead and buried. Dont make it out like the only reason that Sikhs are here is because they fought for survival and against tyranny with weapons throughout history. Circumstances have dictated what we have had to do. There have been times when we have had to hide in the jungles and wage a guerilla war, and there have been times when we have had to take part in non violent peaceful morchas, ie against the British.

If you look at the video series ghukkiyanwali videos 1-4. You will see the event when Daduwal and his singhs went to stop a 'naam charcha' by members of dera sacha sauda, resulting in full on rioting by both sides: http://www.youtube.com/user/5waje#p/u/8/NBBCGrN5T3M The video below is a violent incident when Daduwal was arrested and his supporters took to arms in order to confront the police, only to be thwarted by water cannons and a lathi charge: Now examples such as the ones above where I have demonstrated that Daduwal and his supporters have a propensity to taking the law into their own hands and engaging in violent incidents (admittedly not always because it was their fault), create an image of radical Sikhs. They are viewed as a liability in Punjab and disruptors of the peace. I have personal information regarding the Sikhi and personal integrity of Daduwal, for which I have no respect for him whatsoever. However, I will keep this to myself, as I do not wish to leak information about his personal life. The thrust of my debate is more geared to his approach and methods with which he uses, regarding panthic work etc. I personally would not give him a penny. He collected plenty of cash on his travels to the UK last time he was here. I am very curious to know what he has done with that before I would even consider giving him more donations or asking any jathebandi to. Just because he came and had a few meeting with the youth and convinced a few people doesnt mean that the entire Sikh kaum is behind him. If something like this was to work, I would like to see a 'satkar office' put together in punjab with paid staff, all funded and organised by UK jathebandian who can collect and collate information regarding beadbi incidents and ensure that they are dealt with via the relevant channels, including the press and the police. If volonteers such as Daduwal and other sikh organisations wanted to work under the direction of this particular office, then I would say fine. But if you say that we should pay Daduwal directly, then you must be joking. India is a dirty and corrupt country and I do not trust a soul there. I am a supporter and an advocate of the anandpur sahib resolution. Before 1984, this was the main agenda, aims and objectives of the kaum. After the attack on darbar sahib, the resolution was sidelined and the khalistan agenda was put forward as the main agenda. Since khalistan was not achieved, I believe that Sikhs now have time to re-group and gain our strength and re-evalutate what our aims and objectives should be, what the main challlenges are and how and to focus on those. With Sikh media and information sharing via the internet, this has become much easier in recent years. The anandpur sahib resolution has some relevant points but some are now outdated. I believe that the regular incidents of beadbi and anti-Sikhi activity are a way in which the government keep the Sikhs distracted so that we do not have time to plan for the future. Instead we are forced to keep reacting to incidents of beadbi here and there. This is a constant war of attrition, designed to provoke a reaction and keep our focus away from developing a new agenda and a strategy. I believe that any kind of violent activity regardless of the provocation, unless its immediate self defence, is a waste of time and resources, and a distraction from the things that we need to be focussing on. Regarding the badals and Punjab government. I agree that they are far from perfect. They are politicians and will change their tune regularly as and when it suits them. However, I do have some sympathy for them. They have to play dirty politics in a dirty country. For them to make any kind of panthic change, they first have to play survivalist politics and retain power at any cost and form alliances with anyone and everyone. Once they have consolidated power, the Sikh Akali party is then in a position from where they can bring about panthic change. However, with constant attacks from the central government, the congress party, other opponents, and also radical Sikhs, it is difficult for them to settle down, beyond just defending their own seats. If the law and order situation in punjab turns bad, the punjab akali government has to first deal with law and order before it can even think about bringing about other changes. It is easy to blindly criticise the akalis. That they are traitors, breakers of promises, doing nothing for Sikhi etc. They are probably are some of those things, but I honestly believe that by contributing to the already volatile climate in punjab, we are not helping oursleves or sikhi. Currently Sikhi needs peace in order to floursish. The grievances that we have need to be dealt with in a calm, peaceful, strategic and intelligent manner.

I am not saying that we 'allow' anti sikh activities. However, we have to be very careful how we tackle issues of beadbi and other anti Sikh activities, especially in this day and age. For example, the consequence of the Singhs shooting the ravidassia guru in Vienna because of his beadbi, led to the ravidassia community making a martyr out of him and taking to the streets. Also it further alienated the chamars from mainstream Sikhi and they tried to project it into a caste issue. Then they went around Hyde Park London with banners saying ban kirpans as they are the lethal weapon of Sikh extremists. They went as far trying to encourage chamars to say that they are ravidassia rather than Sikh on their census forms. The adverts for this are on You tube. This was bad for the sikh kaum. When referendums, votes, or any other administrative work happens in Punjab, this particular group will now not recognise themselves as Sikhs. This weakens the kaum further. Whilst Singhs like Daduwal and others like him are very brave and honourable, they have a tendency to walk into situations head first without giving thought to the knock on butterfly effect that takes place. My point is that I dont have a problem with people tackling beadbi and/or anti-Sikh activities. However you have to give due respect to the reasons why the anti-Sikh activity and beadbi is taking place. If it is taking place to provoke the kaum into rising up and then brutally repressing it, and creating divisions in the panth and weakening the panth, then you have to be very careful how you react to incidents. Alot of thought and care is needed. Also when we take to the streets with alot of emotion and draw naked kirpans, often we actually get a bit of a beating from the dera followers, who are government sponsored, well organised and have their own trained paramilitary groups. Dera sacha sauda for example is well armed and has its own paramilitary wing and are no slouches when it comes fighting in the streets. Also, we have the police to deal with as well who come down hard on us, like in the ludhiana kand in 2009. When we face the police and dera followers and get our butts kicked it actually does our own behzti and the police and dera followers end up having less fear and even less respect for us than they had before. If we are going to get heavy handed, we really only should do it when we have thought it through and we know that we can win, rather than just setting ourselves up to fail, like we do on many occassions.

You dont get I'm saying and you never will. If you like Daduwal then go ahead and support him but give him money out of your own pocket. Yes there are some extra judicial murders still going on, some police brutality going on and some beadbi still going on, though not even 20% of what was happening in the 80s. These activities are purely the work of the Indian Government in order to provoke Sikhs into mass rebellion so that they have an excuse to brutally repress us and set us back another 20 years, since we have gained a bit of strength since 84 with the relative peace and had a bit of an opportunity to re-group. People like Daduwal and other radicals are playing right into their hands by reacting to their provocation and trying to mobilise the panth against the government and their activities. If you want the Sikh movement to FAIL and for Sikhs to get set back another 20 years, then go ahead and support these people. Go out there and give your shaheedian, weigh the dushts heads in gold and take on the government with your mass rebellion. You may be surprised at exactly how unprepared you and the rest of the kaum actually are for this kind of activity. Like I said, you dont get what I am saying and you never will. You will continue to rant and rave, raise slogans and pick fights with people who do not subscribe to your point of view. If you said to me, that the focus of your movement was: 1. Increase parchaar and increase the number of amritdharis in Punjab 2. Increase education in Sikhi and Sikh history in Schools and villages in Punjab 3. Use peaceful methods ONLY to campaign for satkaar regardless of the provocation 4. Lobby for greater state autonomy in Punjab 5. Lobby for the punjab police to review its methods of control and restraint and riot control 6. Set up a legal panel to fight Sikh cases relating to discrimnation and wearing of kakkars etc 7. Set up funds to promote schools, sports institutions and other facilities that Sikhs can benefit from If the above were your aims and objectives I would happily agree with you and even join you. However, I will not sit here and let people like yourself lead our kaum into doom... and neither will many others, hence you will find resistance in many sectors of the Sikh community. Many Sikhs, unlike yourself, have learnt the lessons from history and will not make the same kind of mistakes again. Iv probably wasted my breath on you but it was worth a try. Nice one, man

ok

Bro, I do not exercise my warrior spirit by making ridiculous demands on TV and by misusing the jaikara when it suits my agenda. Im the first to say Sikhs should be prepared physically, both via martial arts and by military training so that we are capable for conflict. However, that is exactly the point. We were not prepared for armed conflict in 84, and we are much much less prepared now. If the carnage in 84 was great, the carnage now will be ten fold. Kam Singh is howling for some kind of revolution to take place. The kind that was expected in the 80s and didnt happen because it was brutally repressed and because we as a community are not ready for it. If you havent learnt that yet, then you never will. Regarding warrior spirit and martial training, try getting one of these over emotional youth into it and see if you succeed. They are good at shouting jaikareh and beating up members of their own community but tell them go to a martial arts class and learn to throw a punch, they will be scared about their pagh falling off and goreh laughing at their kesh, and if you tell them to join the army and get military training, they will make some other silly excuse about how it messes up their jeevan. Your point regarding accountability of funds is a fair one. However, I would also extend that back to you and say where is the accountability regarding funds that Daduwal has already collected in India and in the UK, and will continue to collect for 'panthic work'? If you are into making pledges, then we should make a new one now, right now, not tommorrow, Right now, a pledge that all of the UK Sikh YOUTH will donate £5 a month into a fund... and this fund will be used to fund the satkaar campaign. If you guys agree to this then I will also join in and contribute like everybody else.

Singhballer, it doesnt matter who I am, this conversation isnt about me. And I dont even know what a dera panthi is, but I'm supposing that its a bad thing as you have directed that accusation towards me. Daduwal has done satkaar work in Punjab and I commend him for that. But I also think that he is a trouble maker and an uneducated pindu who thinks that starting fights with Sacha Sauda followers is some kind of great panthic work. And its not as if him and his chelay can even do that properly, given that the best they have ever been able to achieve is give as good as they get on a couple of occassions when both sides have waved sticks and thrown bricks at each other for a few hours. If that is your idea of great panthic work, then fair play to you. Daduwal is doing this for popularity and publicity. He wants to be the new Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and the Indian Government want him to be too. Hence why they arrested him and then quickly released him, as he suits their purposes, as a radical Sikh, disrupting harmony in Punjab, and destabilising the Sikh Kaum further. It is no surprise that noone wants to support him. The jathedars dont like him, the politicans dont like him and the heads of all the main jathebandian dont like him. He is a liability and a dangerous and harmful force for the Sikh kaum. There is no way in hell that I would pay money to him and his chelay so that they can supposedly spend it on bringing 'dushts' to justice. No Sikh with a brain would do it either, hence why the heads of jathebandian told Kam Singh and his gang of morons to get lost. If they want to give money to Daduwal, then these youth should get together and reach into their own pockets and give daswand that way. However, these cry baby youth wont get off their own backsides and do it, and think its fair game to ask other people to do it for them. And then on National television, they are suggesting that Sikh jathebandian should basically openly support militant activity, when these same jathebandian are trying to convince the rest of the world that we are not terrorists and that we are peaceful people and that our kids will not stab other kids at school with their kirpans. If you guys want to bring Dushts to justice and weigh their heads in gold, you do not need any pledges from uk jathebandian, nor do you need their permission. You are not babies. Take responsiblity for your actions and dont expect the rest of the kaum to pick up the pieces and support your families when you go to jail, because you wanted to have your little bit of fun, feel like a mahaan soorma of the panth, and completely go against what the elders are saying. Good luck and get lost

I second that. The biggest enemies of sikhs are sikhs themselves. The so-called great Sikhs and the ones that follow them are the ones that do the most harm.

This international Sikh Conference was nothing more than a rant and rave by highly emotional youth who were howling for blood. Their disruptive and boisterous behavour and lack of respect towards the elders was disgusting. Not only that, when a single Sikh woman got on stage to speak, she was completely ignored and the rude and disrespectful youth just continued to talk over her. The youth made ridiculous demands from the elders such as saying that the UK jathebandian should publically encourage young Singhs to go out and murder people who do beadbi and that if they bring that persons head back then it should be weighted in gold. They also demanded that UK jathebandian publically pledge to give money to the families of Singhs killed or imprisoned after they murder the perpetrators of beadbi. Effectively, they were asking respectable and mainstream UK jathebandian to incite violence on TV, and it was highly unsurprising that the elders walked off in disgust and that the Sikh channel programme had to be called off air. The youth used bully boy tactics and tried to force the members of this event to pass another empty resolution, as if panthic resolutions can just be passed in this kind of way. Also demanding that the elders put their hands into their pockets and fund the baba in India, Baljeet Singh Daduwal, so that he and his chelay can go around throwing brings and waving sticks at Sacha Sauda meetings. However, the same youth, who earn big money in professional jobs would never put their hands into their own pockets and give daswand, instead they ask old men and pensioners to do it. Youth displayed lack of intellect, lack of diplomacy and pure bully boy tactics. Shame on you.

Some of this depends on families and background. Most middle aged migrant Sikh men tie their beards. It is felt by some that a tied up beard is a more professional, refined, educated image. To be honest, most young Sikhs dont really like to tie up their beards and prefer to keep them open. I once asked a white co-worker of mine, what do they think looks better. If my beard is tied up or open. They replied that they never really look, and never really notice the difference lol Tbh, most of the people that make comments about what turban style looks better, or what beard style looks better are other Singhs. It just doesnt really register on most other peoples radar. Often it is other people, including parents concerns and worries about finding rishtay and their children succeeding in a professional environment that triggers them to pass judgment on whether a beard should be tied or not. Personally, I find tying up a beard time consuming and unnatural. Both me and my brother have open beards. We both have ladies in our lives and we have always attracted female attention, both from white and Indian girls. Both of us work in top professional environments and having Sikhi saroop has only enhanced our lives, rather than held us back. As to your family stating whether or not you should have a tied up or open beard.. I would just regard that as parental interference. Just like mums and dads tell you what clothes to wear, what degree to study, and how to live the rest of your life. As a wise man once said, 'opinions are like a - holes, everybody has got one' You just have to be yourself and do what is comfortable to you and live your own life. That is an attractive quality in it self... as is the ability to shrug off critiscism.. dont take what other people say too seriously and just be confident in yourself.

You have to be suspicious because SGPC elections are coming up so rogue elements might be engaging in mischief making to disrupt harmony and law and order in Punjab. Also, this wouldnt be the first time that someone has cut there own hair and blamed it on a racist attack, because they secretly wanted to cut their hair but were to scared to just go and do it themselves. Remember the incident in Scotland 3 years ago and in Nottingham about 8 years ago. There have been other fake cases in Punjab as well. I am not saying that this guy is making the story up. However, I am saying he could be so it is best to wait and find out what the facts are, rather than fall into the humiliating trap of getting all hyped up to find out later that this is a big fake. Also if it is a ploy to disrupt stability in Punjab, then surely it is better to stay calm as reacting aggressively will just be playing into the hands of our enemies who are trying to provoke us. Many times, have we fallen prey to this kind of provocation, then we react aggressively, take to the streets, then find ourselves completely unprepared for the organised violence and police brutality that is waiting for us.

you'll know for sure if hes making it up if he grows his hair after it was cut. if he keeps it short, then it is very suspicious indeed

As mentioned above, and just to summarise, I do not believe that this is an issue related to looks. It is associated with branding. By being a Singh, you now carry some kind of 'Singh brand'. This brand means different things to different people. For some it is positive and for others it is negative. This will be based on a multitude of factors, including direct personal experience that people have had of Singhs. Some self reflection is required here as to how we as a kaum may have contributed to our own negative branding, if applicable.

You guys cant win this war by being aggressive and hostile towards women because of their tastes and preferences. You cant bully, embarass, scold or lecture them into believing that sikhi saroop is attractive and that they should marry men with dastaar and dara. Alot of this is a problem with perception. By being a Singh, you are associating with the Singh brand. What does this represent to you, and what does it represent to the rest of the world, including our own women folk? Look at the Singh brand nowadays? What does it represent? To some it represents, saints, warriors soldiers, brave, regal and noble men. This = attractive (category 1) However, for some people it represents strict doctrine, sexist, backward conservative, rigid and old school, pindu cultural values. For others it represents lack of education, closed minded thinking, religious fundamentalism, maybe even terrorism. This = unattractive. (cateogory 2) Unfortunately for us, Singhs come in all shapes and sizes. In India, a Singh is someone who dances bhangra and fills himself with liquor... A daler mehendi type figure fits this stereotype that most Indians outside of Punjab have of Singhs. What negative stereotypes do UK girls possibly have about Singhs? They must have come in contact with some Singhs or some of those stereotype qualities in order to have formed that view. As far as possible, you want your own branding to be associated with category 1 above and avoid cateogry 2, in order to be considered attractive. To change the situation all together, all Singhs need to associate with category 1 so that this becomes the norm and category 2 no longer exists. Only then will Singhs be considered attractive in the Punjabi mainstream, let alone outside the punjabi community.

Also there are not really official gangs as such, definitely not in the way that they exist in canada. There are minor remnants of the old disbanded gangs Shere punjab and ex holy smokes etc but nothing like the level of before. However, youth do stick together, usually friendship groups, or associated with a particular gurdwara, jathebandi or city. There is an underbelly of gang crime in Sikh areas, but usually associated with individuals or small groups of associates, not really what I would term as a gang. Can anyone correct me on this?

EDL, are a newer breed of english patriots who have taken a stance against Islamic extremism, hence we have a common interest as Sikhs are too victims of Islamic extremism. However, other far right groups such as BNP and National Front, skinheads etc are openly hostile against all ethnic groups including Sikhs. In the 70s, 80s and 90s, they probably used to target Sikhs more because the turban was seen an alien/foreign symbol, and therefore an object to be hated. The change in world events, ie Islamic extremism has taken Sikhs off the hook a little bit as muslims are now seen as the new enemy, and the focus of hate from far right groups. Ocassionally Sikh do still get attacked by racists who confuse Sikhs or Muslims, and some who dont really care if there is a difference as to them we are, 'the same old <banned word filter activated>'. The BNP, has more recently tried to join hands with Sikhs against Islamic extremists and tried to gain Sikh support in recent years. However, the more extreme far right groups such as NF are still more likely to spit on you if they see you, and if you go into one of their areas such as ilkeston, south derbyshire, there is a good chance that you will get verbal abuse or get your head kicked in.

In many cases, finding a partner is just another form of trade or transaction. The question asked by most people when they enter this transaction is what am I getting and or/what am I offering? For most people, this transaction is purely maya related. For women, looking at a guy, they will naturally and intuitively assess the guy's wealth (his ability to provide for his wife and family), his status (her own status will increase if she is with a high status guy, especially in the eyes of other people), and also his ability to protect his woman and his family (ie is he strong, well built, confident, does he have lots of contacts? etc.) The above has little or nothing to do with having a turban, beard or whatever. It is attraction based purely on the perceived ability of a man to fulfil some basic functions as a husband/partner and enabling some kind of social elevation to take place and as bonus, make all the other girls jealous lol. The above is always true. Thats why pop stars, even ugly and old ones, and rich guys, including ugly and old ones, and bullies, gangsters, politicians and other so called powerful and confident men have no problem attracting girls. The same applies to Singhs. In fact the same applies to monay and everybody else. Without realising it and just by posting what he has, california sardar, has already struck himself off, by believing that he is not attractive to girls and that the reason for this is his turban and beard. He will project this weakness intuitively, and women, who have a nose for this kind of thing will pick it up and automatically strike him off as a potential mate, given his lack of confidence. The reason is not his turban and beard.. it is his lack of confidence associated with his turban and beard. If this is a problem for you california sardar, may I suggest that you spend some time investing in yourself and plugging this gap in your life, through research on this topic (how to attract women). It sounds to me that you are a really nice and genuine guy and that any woman would be lucky to have you as a husband, if they were not so thick and superficial as to judge your lack of confidence. However, at the same time you cannot blame for this, as this is how they are hardwired. This is basically just natural selection/ darwinism at work. Seriously bro, like sarabha said, train, become an alpha male, become a high flyer at work, develop a strong and confident personality, become selective in what kind of woman you are looking for and you will be well on your way.

I find it hilarious that people manage to use Sikhi in a way that suppresses women. Sikhi is here to liberate women and show that they are equal to men, as well other kinds of equality by nullifying caste, class and any other kind of man made barrier designed to segregate people including amritdhari and non amritdhari. This is pure brahman vaad. Most of this is pure baba-ism and not Sikhism. Iv heard it suggested by some gullible Sikhs, including women, that the reason that why some women have facial hair growing is because they are demanding their rights too much so akaal purakh is granting their wishes by giving them facial hair and turning them into men, hence they shouldnt demand their rights lol.. Listening to the fairy tales of certain babas and hiding behind certain dogmatic maryadas is nothing short of sexual discrimination. People should go back to simple tenets of Sikhi such as equality and use their own brain from there.