ms514

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Yep...great strategy isn't it? Use the money from golaks FROM SIKHS to do parchar AGAINST SIKHS by the RSS. Let me restate this - the RSS is using YOUR OWN MONEY and ORGANIZATIONS against YOU. Full support of stopping any more donations to golaks. Let the system fail and collapse. This cancer needs to be cut out NOW.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Dumb question: Given that this individual claims to be from the Dal Panth, should not his former Dal branch be seeking him out for "sodha"? Not only is he disrespecting the Sikh faith, but he is basically AWOL and abandoning his post as a Nihung Singh?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH If you are Amritdhari, you should seek the advice of the Punj Pyare on the action of signing that paper. if you are not, then stop worrying about it and work towards what the other posters are saying. It is not a contract that holds up in any court of law and even in legal cases, if you are having mental issues, they do not consider that to be the proper state of mind to make any commitments.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Neverforget84.com - recent history of Sikh martyrs and their lives are as inspirational as the Elder Sikhs. Allaboutsikhs.com - comprehensive website with a LOT of information. Should keep you busy for some time.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Awesome! When is the next swan shaped chariot of flowers Air India jet coming out? I want to go for a ride!

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Right...good luck with your new path. When you are suffering from disease and suffering, remember that Guru Sahib's door is always open and he is ever forgiving.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Work with your therapist and ask the therapist to give you a realistic expectation on what his/her plan is for you and be patient with it. Things like this take time to work through and your feedback to the therapist is vital to making the therapy work.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH In most countries, this is something that has to be done through a doctor, and this is the ideal way. Depending on your symptoms, your physical characteristics (weight, age, gender, etc.), your goals and needs, the medication regimen would be designed. These drugs require some time to elapse to show full effect. These medications alter the very chemistry of the body and mind and cannot be recommended on an internet forum. It is best not to ask anyone such a question unless you have had a full work up by a qualified doctor (preferably a psychiatrist). He/she should work with you to get you the best therapy possible. I say this being a practicing pharmacist for 10 years or so. The internet is not a substitute for a qualified doctor making an assessment, diagnosis and a treatment plan. Also, there is nothing wrong with seeking medical treatment for a disorder. Delaying treatment may further complicate matters.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH I will oppose all of you and say the following words: I am in full support of two people from different religious backgrounds getting married. Absolutely!!!! :omg: Just not through the Anand Karaj cermony which is reserved for practicing Sikhs. I don't get the issue. You can get married through civil ceremonies everywhere. If you are marrying outside of the Sikh faith, you are not really a Sikh, are you (unless the definition recently changed and invalidated the Guru's Hukam and the Rehat Maryada, which states that a Sikh should marry a Sikh)? What't the issue? NOBODY here cares if you want to marry a person of another faith/species/alien life form/rocks/trees - it's just that the Anand Karaj is not for you. Go report to the nearest registrar or whatever agency is used in your country and get married. Or if the other spouse to be's faith supports "inter-faith marriages", go get married there. You inter-faith marriage type people make no sense. You don't practice the faith, you don't do what the Gurus and the Panth say to do, and yet you insist on getting married in front of the Guru...why? What's the point? Tell you what - why not do everything that is involved in the Punjabi weddings EXCEPT the Anand Karaj - that only takes like 15 minutes and you can have the same experience more or less. If you think that doing four rounds around Guru Sahib (which you don't seem to believe in) is vital to your being considered married, then ask yourself why? Do you read Gurbani, do you follow Gurbani, are you following the faith? What are you doing? Why would you want to be a hypocrite in front of Guru Sahib? What are you hoping to achieve? Or what you are REALLY doing is a blind ritual with no meaning or consequence to your life and your new life as a married couple - frankly, every practicing Sikh should be positively offended that you would do this mockery in front of Guru Sahib and is absolutely justified in his/her outrage.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH "Don't ever request the bravery of the Rajput beta ji. Majority of martyrs from the Indian army are from Rajasthan and Haryana. Look it up. These are Rajput and Hindu Jat land and we were never victims." I am requesting...now make with the demonstration. Talk is cheap, go show us something. Go conquer Arunachal Pardesh completely back from the Chinese and take Pakistan back and unify India. We are waiting...

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Why not revoke/disallow any permission whatsoever and if/when they release, sue them for every penny they have?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH I am going Miss Cleo on this post and making some off the wall predictions: Badal Dal will start to raise slogans of Khalistan and Panthic causes. Would not be surprised at this point if Badal tried an alliance with the other Akali Dals to consolidate power. He is hungry for money and power and will do whatever it takes to get it, including "going back" to the Sikhs. Flame suit on. :ignore:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH TrueSingh Sahib - a request. When China/Pakistan invade India, please be very particular in rallying the Rajputs and taking on the challenge yourselves (you and fellow Rajputs). We Sikhs need a break from saving India invasion after invasion. Look forward to seeing your performance on the front lines. May you do the name Singh proud. If not and you get trampled on, I am sure the "other Singhs" (Sikhs) will be sent. But make sure you don't let us go first. We as well want to witness your bravery. There is no point in discussing who is a true Singh or valor at this point. When the next conflict arises, prove your superiority and bravery to Sikhs and we will see who has the right to call themselves Singh.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH If Chemistry, Biology and lots of pharmaceutical chemistry are considered science, I am one of "thems". Thoughts on religion - anyone who has studied any science and sees the complexity of rules, particularly (to me) the complex systems in the animal body (has its own organized army, production centers and composed of countless cells who themselves are highly organized and a brain that we have yet to figure out what large portions of in function) will seriously have to give pause to the Creator of all of this. And just as much wonder resounds when looking outside of the body. Every aspect of any subject matter, when studied deeply, begins to cause the mind to bubble up thoughts of how this is all possible without a guiding force orchestrating this concert of creation. Religion is essential - even in the void of any belief of God, one must see that it forms the back of the majority of laws, ethics and society's desire for a civil organization rather than an animalistic chaos. It drives human thought and reaches beyond that which is perceptible to that which is Divine and larger than the sum of its parts.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH There is no requirement to sit separately. My wife, children and I have sat together without issue - nobody in the Sangat was surprised or bothered and this is in multiple Gurudwaras (family with young kids need both parents to manage at times). There is no Maryada requirement for separation. Anyone who tells you otherwise is making up rules. Now, given the many reasons above, along with the prevention of any miscreants doing incorrect things with the opposite gender, there may have been an evolution of convenience, but it is not mandated by any means.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH First, you have to apply for a marriage visa through the British Embassy. The civil marriage must take place beforehand. I believe you must give notice 16 days in advance of the marriage. Once complete, the Gurdwara marriage can take place. If the registrar (administrator of the marriage) learns that you plan to do a Gurdwara marriage prior to civil marriage, they can refuse to do the civil marriage. Many Gurdwaras have a registrar in the Gurdwara to facilitate an all in one marriage process, so the civil and Gurdwara marriage is all done on the same day and no separate civil ceremony is required. Advice: Get there with time to spare (definitely > 16 days, preferably a month to 1.5 months), book with a Gurdwara that has a registrar (not all do) and communicate with that registrar that the person to be married to is a US citizen. The registrar should be confirming all information and facilitate a smooth process. Booking a Gurdwara in advance is important and having a registrar present there is also very important. Otherwise, you have to do the split religious and civil cermony (more hassle and planning). Make sure the registrar you speak to is the same one booked for the anand karaj, so they are completely aware of the particular details and not have any last minute, "I didn't know that" moments. Refer to the website documented above, but make sure the UK person is in communication with the registrar locally so it goes smoothly. I am a US citizen who married a UK citizen who had to undergo this process, but that was a few years ago. The website above should be the most updated and the registrar would be the best. the advice above is practical experience of a lot of running around, hassle, stress and annoyance - things you don't want to associate with your anand karaj.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH I am going to retire from this thread. I get the feeling that it will go on for some time and perhaps my own experienceand development will guide me to the final answer. Further contribution on my end...may not be of benefit to relatively civil environment expected on this forum. Thanks all. I have read all the references provided and do thank your time and effort for the contribution.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Bhai Delhitakht Sahib, many rituals that had been going on from the older ages (application of Manu Simritis - caste system and mistreatment of women, sati, devi/devta pooja/polytheism, adherence to Vedas and the inscribed rituals) were condemned by Guru Sahib and Gurbani is evidence of this. If I am doing Japji Sahib paath everyday that says that Daya is the root of all religion and someone is telling me that I have to slaughter animals (or find some sort of source of blood) to anoint Shastars, I think it is somewhat logical to have a conflict that is apparent. That Guru Hargobind Sahib would tell the to-be Guru Har Rai Sahib to mind his chola because he is damaging plants carelessly (in a supreme display of Daya towards all living things) and in the same vein, claim that we are to kill and use blood to do Shastar Pooja - you DO see the issue right? I again reference our own history (Suraj Parkash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh Ji, Rehatname/Tankhanama Bhai Nand Lal, etc. - all contain Q&A with Guru Sahib) that documents that on many, many occasions, Sikhs would ask Guru Sahib questions and Guru Sahib would answer. In this spirit, I searched Chandi Charitrar and Chandi Di Vaar and was unable to find a reference for Sri Dust Daman to have a communication with Chandi/Durga - nothing came to light (only reference was in Chandi Charitar that stated that Vishnu sent help, but no mention of the thousands of lions that are stated in the picture of the inscription). The inscription that is in the the picture references the Sarbloh Granth Sahib - anyone know whereabouts I could search for the relevant text? Look, I am trying here, but all I keep getting is that it is Puratan Maryada and don't question it - Sikhi was borne out of questioning and understanding. This is not Tark-Budhi, to mindlessly dismiss everything, that I am trying to apply. If you tell me that my mother (Mata Sahib Kaur) is an incarnation of Durga - I want to know about that as much as I would want to know what village/city my worldly mother comes from and any resources to document such, right? You will agree that none of the references provided to this time have mentioned blood anointing as a means to do Shastar Pooja right? If not, maybe I missed it - please point it out. The respect is given to Shastars because they are the givers or life and death. Hence the supreme accordance of respect. But doing something without any evidence to support it is not in line with Sikhi (see Daya references in first paragraph) - everything should have a reason, and I am trying to get to those reasons. Shaheed Soormae from the 1984 and post movement, mostly, were not adherents to Jhatka and were vegetarians. I do not ever recall Sant Jarnail Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal or other great Sikhs speaking of blood tilak to Shastars. Perhaps you would say that it is because their Shastars saw blood due to their seva, but not one seems to have spoken on this. Tilak of Guru Sahib is documented in Gurbani and the Amrit Sanchar ceremony is not in question - its deep spiritual context and significance is not in question here, nor was it ever. Amrit Sanchar has been a ceremony documented by Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib from the time of Guru Nanak Sahib and if Dasam Patshah chose to change it to Khandae Battae Di Pahul, there is no issue. You can even note that I have not said that it is right or wrong in any post so far. I asked for reasons/references and and doing my own research as much as possible.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Thanks for the picture - I will review it and check it against some things. Sikhiseeker Jio, there is no mention of opposing respect and Namaskar of Shastars at all. This is an established sign of respect to do Namaskar of Shastar per Dasam Patshah's Bani. I am not disputing that, the question at hand is anointing Shastar with blood. ਜਿਤੇ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤਾਮੰ ॥ Jite Sasatra Naaman ॥ Namasakaar Taaman ॥ I salute all the weapons of various names ਜਿਤੇ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਯੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤੇਯੰ ॥੯੧॥ Jite Asatra Bheyaan ॥ Namasakaar Teyaan ॥91॥ I salute all kinds of armour.91. Sorry for side tracking the thread with this new element of Mata Sahib Kaur's origins - it does seem to be somewhat (at least for now) a side topic from the main issue.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Yeah, given I am located in California and don't have any plans to go to India...not going to happen any time soon. If you have a picture of the relevant inscription, I will be more than happy to read. "if your cup is already full , if anyone will try to put something in it , it will only spill out come back and learn things with more open mind ." How...philosophical. Thanks. There is a difference between having an open mind and blindly accepting something that is not (at least without further explanation, hence the Sant Jwala Singh Harkhowal story I inserted) in line with Gurbani or no solid references can be provided for a statement. Whatever...if you want to declare victory or something in this thread, go ahead...do a few Jakarae and whatnot if it makes you feel better. This is going nowhere fast.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH "Sgoc will never contribute completely therefore we should raise money online and get this decision approved from sri Akal takhat sahib. " They won't because we let them get away with it. It is the Sangat's money and its PURPOSE for being given is exactly for any Panthic seva, and this the highest of sevas. This happens because we let it happen. You already have approval from Akaal Takht Sahib to transport by air per a May 14th advisory by the Jathedar of Akaal Takht Sahib. I don't think the SGPC would oppose it either if Sangat brought the cash. The question is why is Sangat having to raise money when we have this thing called the SGPC ,whose JOB this is supposed to be?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH This onus for overseas transport should be on the SGPC. If you are getting crores of rupees a WEEK from Harmandir Sahib alone, and you control hundreds of Gurudwarae in India (and their golaks), surely you can afford to rent your own plane from time to time and do this seva. It boggles the mind as to how much money the SGPC intakes and how little they actually do.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Jio, have you read the above excerpt of your own reference? You could translate Kali as Akaal Purakh and it still won't make sense (again, from Shastar Naam Malaa with reference to the lines, "Kaal Tuhi, Kali Tuhi.", alluding that Dasam Patshah's reference to Kali can indeed be Akaal Purakh). Why would Akaal Purakh need thousands of lives sacrificed? Please provide your vichaar on the reference as to how it is in line with Sikhi. Why would Akaal Purakh be demanding of sacrifices to grant boons? As for Giani Inderjeet Singh's katha - what is his reference? Understand that people (and I am not making any statement against Giani Ji) have made up ridiculous "history" based on nothing but their whims. I am very aware that Kathakars are not literature books and don't (always) cite their references, but to state that Mata Sahib Kaur, mother of the Sikhs, was Chandi, is definitely something that requires citation and reference.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH The Gursikh's sentiment is valid - his hurt is in the right place and it resonates with every Gursikh who is pained by this tragedy. Honestly, this is a question for Satkaar of Gurbani and an established process to obtain a Saroop and validate that Satkaar can be done. There are Sikhs who do more Satkaar of Guru Sahib at home then some Gurudwarae and some Gurudwarae who do less Satkaar than the worst of homes (meat, alchohol, bhangra, shady granthis, and then some). The reverse is also and obviously true. I understand the Singh's comments on this beadbi in being based on Sangat's requests for Saroops at home, but the deeper issue is the mass printing, dubious and disrespectful transport and ultimately the verification of the sanctity of Guru Sahib's final place of residence. Validation of proper Maryada, appropriate set up, understanding of requirements and maybe a community responsibility to randomly audit ALL places that do parkash (Gurudwara or homes) may be needed to prevent this, but obviously, this is not something that gets set up overnight. The internet is replete with incidents in both homes and Gurudwarae that have beadbi going on. Mass printing is also a definite issue - why have a "stock" of Guru Sahib? That is absolutely insane and needs to stop, as multiple stories have been reported about the "warehousing" of Guru Sahib in inappropriate conditions. Conclusion: This is a Panth-wide issue that needs focus and resolution. Satkaar for Guru Sahib is paramount for Sikhs. This would, by default, be the SGPC's responsibility in theory (they are the only authority authorized to print the Saroops, so they bear a responsibility for the appropriate Satkaar of Guru Sahib during printing, transport and final destination), but obviously, they themselves are suspect characters. Given the current environment in the Panth< doubt this will come to an appropriate resolution for the greater problem of Satkaar overall.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH Apart from the first part, which is Bani of Dasam Patshah, Ardaaas is kind of open ended with many versions (and many modifications by individuals) to that Ardaas. Don't think either version is wrong or right.