Niranjana

I saw this and it reminded me of another thread I saw on the Tapoban Forum: http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=43165&t=43165 Near the bottom, there is the following statement: The Rehit Maryada as issued by the Damdami Taksal (see http://www.damdamitaksal.com/rehat.pdf) the following lines from Bhai Gurdas Jee: "Be faithful to your one wife, see others as your daughters and sisters, (for women you must be faithful to one husband and see others as your sons and brothers)." (//. 6, Pauri 8, Bhai Gurdas Jee) are interpreted as follows: A Singh must look upon his wife as his faithful Singhni and a SINGHNI SHOULD LOOK UPON HER HUSBAND AS PARMESHWAR(GOD). This is not unique only to DDT, Nanaksar also adopt the same advice as do the Nishkam Sevak Jatha. Please tell me if this is not Bipran ki Reet and a direct quotation of the “Pati-Parmeshvar” ideology of the “Hindus”?

So Taksali Singh, being a "fool" (or foool, as you put it) is ground enough for "Gursikhs", the upholders of Dharma and so and so forth, to "kill (someone) on the spot"? hmmm, interesting, I can see now why eating Chicken is "Anti-Gurmat", but killing people with a different point of view, albeit foolish is perfectly fine, just like it is to Hijack planes no doubt?

Regardless of this individuals crimes, it does not justify this sort of action or violence, it seems Sikhs in the UK are beginning to adopt the habits of those in Vancouver and pind-based Jats in Punjab. Also, the issue of Sant Jee being a GOI agent is perhaps a little far fetched, however there is no denying that Congress had a considerable hand in his initial fame, which they tried hard to utilise as ammunition against their Akali political opposition and much in the way of evidence (documented and photographic) links him as canvassing for the earlier congress party members in Punjab – HOWEVER, his latter actions are clear as to what and where he stood on the matter of the GOI and their sustained anti-Sikh roles.

Gur Fateh! I was incorrect, the Nihangs actually recite whole load more: JapJi Sahib Sabhad Hazare Jaap Sahiba Sabha Hazare P10 Tav Svayae (+additional Svayae beginning Deenan Ki pritpal...) Chaupai Sahib (beginning with Dohras on Mahakaal) Tav Prashad Chaupai Ath Chandi Charitr Chandi di // Uggardanti Shastarnaammala Depending on how you count those, thats anything from 8 to 12 Banis in total. The post by Gupt Dasan Das is the Taksal Rehit Maryada and matters concerning ending of the Chaupai Sahib in the morning recital and face one's pillow etc are peculiar to it.

This thread is hilarious -I'm with Mehtab Singh on this one. We have a bunch of teenagers who have frankly no idea of the responsibility involved in being Manmohan Singh's role, yet issue curses left right and centre! Granted no one's perfect, but some of the arguments above are plain childish. I wonder if Manmohan was a Jat, if this level of criticism would be issued at him!

The morning nitnem as defined by the Sikh Rehit Maryada is 3 Banis (Jap Ji, Jaap Sahib and Tav Prashad Savaiyae), the additional 2 in the evening and night (Rehras and Kirtan Sohila) are considered collectively to make up 5 Banis per day. The Chaupai Sahib under the Sikh Rehit Maryada begins at “Hamri Karo Haath…” and ends early before the “Kirpa karo hum par Jag mata”. This is the Sikh Rehit Maryada and should be respected as the minimum criteria or pledge for those who are Amritdhari. It does not prohibit the reading of further bani or being vegetarian (under the Sikh Rehit Maryada consumption of non-Halal meat is acceptable) or about wearing a Keski or Patka for women (this is an option granted under THE Sikh Rehit Maryada) and the option to read or not read the Raagmala. Now there are many others like Taksal, AKJ, Nihangs, Nanaksar to mention a few, who have a maryada which differs from this on various points –however, let’s be clear this is not a grounds for disagreement. The Sikh Rehit Maryada is not negotiable and does not conflict with these maryadas. They are essentially expansions on various parts of the Sikh Rehit Maryada. As per the Banis, most groups tend to favour 5 Banis in the morning, Nihangs do 7 as a minimum. The Chaupai Sahib paath varies across the board with additional Dohra, Chaupai and Arril measures being added to the main bani. Many also include the Shabd Hazare of both Gurus and the Tav Prashad Chaupai and 33 Savayae as part of their nitnem. Hope this helps.

Here we go again! Sahib Singh is correct, it is Pankhand Kirtan, he is not referring to the Bani, which is Nirankar, he is referring to its degredation at the hands of so many so-called 'Ragis' and 'Keertanias'. If "love" is all that matters, that why is it people have problems with Sehajdharis, Monas, Trim-Singhs, non-Amritdhari Keshdharis, non-bibeki, non-dhumala wearing, beard-tying Amritdharis...WHY??? OH, because this is rehit, this is maryada, this is GURMAT. Well in the same way, so is the proper rendition of Gurbani in Kirtan and frankly Sahib Singh is spot on, these are selections of 'pankhand' kirtan at its best. People go to untold lengths to prove supposed 'mandatory' aspects of rehit such as sarabloh bibek, wearing white hazoorias, only tying a certain type of dastaar -all of which have little or NO written evidence to support, particularly the first two which are 'oral' traditions. Here we have Gurbani which clearly stipulates RAAG, GHAR (time cycle) etc etc, yet we are keen to use our MANMAT and claim we follow TAT GURMAT MARYADA whilst singing pankhandi kirtan. Sorry, maybe I'm a little slow, but I can't understand why people feel this way. Gur Fateh! Niranjana.

The idea that Guru Gobind Singh's celestial writings are 'translations for simple folk to understand them' is absurd. Have a read through Dasam Bani, the language is not 'simple' and moreover these not simply 'translations'. Those who have read the original texts underlying the same themes (i.e. Ramayan, Mahabharat, Markhande Puran etc) will note that there are differences in the 'katha' that Guru Sahib relays. We should aspire to have all forms of knowledge. I'll leave this thread now for "The Khalsa Fauj" (yeah right!) to come a hijack with his pro-Kala Afghana rubbish about how the Dasam Granth is not Gurbani.

Veer Jagjit "Waheguru" Thanks for your comments, I support you entirely on this front -the use of aggresive language, burning of effigies and other such actions, which in the UK and on the international scene are commonly associated with Islamic protests and marches are best avoided. Roop Singh of Leeds is a good person to have up as a spokesman and I hope he continues in this efforts, given the recent 'press' Sikhs in the UK have had following the infamous 'play' and the subsequent ridiculing on nationwide TV (Jeremy Paxman and Newsnight) it would be helpful if we didn't continue to copy tactics commonly associated with Islamic marchs (i.e. mob rule). Gur Fateh! See you all on June 12, 2005. GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!

I'm surprised no one has mentioned real talent like Bhai Avtar Singh or Amarjit Singh "Taan" (and his very accomplished tabla player Bhai Rajinderpal Singh 'Jindi') --these are true "ragis" who have spent time and effort studying 'raag' and do not perform pankhandi kirtan.

This Dohra is NOT Gurbani -and unfortunately, much to the delight of Namdharis, many of today's Sikhs actually fail to note this! It can be found in many formats, the one most commonly used, taken from Gyani Gyan Singh. The Akal Thakt rehitnama shortens it considerably removing lines relating to Neklank Avtar, the Guru Jyot at Nanded Sahib, Sach Khand Hazur Sahib and of course the plee to Shamsher Kalgidhar Pita for protection. Gur Fateh! Niranjana

Dear All, Gur Fateh! Thanks for the kind words. Simran9, the issues you raise are valid, however, again we are missing the point, Lohri 'itself' doesn't make any discrimination against boys and girls, it's the people who do it, as 'Sony' indicated there are those who actually do it for both boys and girls. Compare it to the tradition in some families to hold an Akhand Path or similar religious function when a young boy first ties his dastaar (the origins of this tradition are disputable, but that's a different discussion saved for another time)...the same approach could be applied here, what about the girl? (i.e. not often does one see this replicated for girls) Does this make the "Dastaar Bandan" a bad tradition? Gur Fateh!

Lohri is categorically NOT a religious festival! To include it with discussions on Holi, Rakhi, Dushera etc and their relationship with Sikhi is not comparing like with like. Let's keep the discussion on Lohri alone, as there are plenty concerning Rakhi etc elswhere. Lohri, unlike the Gyani Ji cited in the first post, is nothing to do with Pralad and people do not 'pray to the fire'! This is however a 'punjabi' festival and concerns itself purely with the cold of the Poh month and really is no different to have a bonfire and warming up marshmellows on sticks (except in Punjab the use natural things like Monkey Nuts and Revrea). There is no praying, no religious association with Lohri like there is with say Holi (concering Pralad and Holika and also the exploits of Krishna) or Rakhi or Dushera etc. Whether it is worth celebrating by Sikhs is a question worth raising, just like it is for celebrating Pooranmashi, Sangrand etc -which are not the same as the above mentioned traditions like Holi and Divali, which clearly have their own religious connotations. Festivals like Vaisakhi, Lohri, Sangrand, Pooranmashi have been long used within even Orthodox Sikh circles as a means to gather for Sat Sangat as these were days that people would tend to congregate anyway. If one looks as Lohri from a manmat perspective, all you'll see in a typical Punjabi Pind is a couple old booted Jat folks gathered around a fire to keep them warm and talking bukwas about how they missed out on 'getting some' when they were younger (excuse the reference, this relates to an actual occurance, which I won't spell out any fur ther). By the same token, those who are devout, will simply use the time to go to their local Gurdwara to meet with Maharaj, just like most of us in the West do on a Sunday, not because we believe it to be a 'holy' day or a Sabath, but simply because it's the day off in the week and most folk traditional use it for a family gathering or going to Church -likewise with the origins of Lohri. Let's calm down a little bit, there's not much Bipran Reet in getting together with your family on Lohri and either have a kirtan at your house, social or going to the Gurdwara.

That;s what I've always been told (probably because most Amrit Kirtan Pothi reference it as such), however as Vijaydeep Singh has pointed out, this is not the case with the recently released Sarabloh Granth from the Buddha Dal. Now for some this is simply a Buddha Dal issue, however let's look to original copies if we can get access, in the interim, it does pose an interesting paradox, for this shabd is frequently quoted by all Sikh Groups yet when it comes to other aspects of the Sarabloh Granth (within the same supposed section) such as Treh Mudra or Kes being a Kakkar, many are quick to point out that this is an unreliable text, yet they continue to chant this mantra to justify their other beliefs.

Gurpurb di vadiyae! I don't have a translation, however just for information sake, this shabd is not in the Dasam Granth. The series of shabds starting "Khalsa ke parshad kar sudh bid bos bandar" are the ones found within the Dasam Granth prior to the Shastar Naam Mala, commonly sung as "Inhe ke kirpa ke..." Gur Fateh! Niranjana.

Gur Fateh! There is a very good recitation of Dukh Bhanjani Sahib available in the Gurbani Section by Bhai Ranjit Singh Bedi (do a search under his name to locate). He explains quite clearly the practice of using water whilst reciting this path -there is nothing ritualistic about this at all, for if there is, then surely when must apply this same "beau monde reforming" logic to all things such as, the use of Water during the Amrit Sanchar, the requirement to keep one's kesh covered at ALL times, the insistence to maintain all 5 K's on one's person at ALL times, peforming Parkarma around Guru Maharaj, waving a Chaur Sahib over Guru Maharaj and so on. Sure, for me and you, as Sikhs many of these requirements may not "appear" to be ritualistic, but just step back, like you have for your views regarding Dukhbhanji Sahib and you'll see that the same can be applied here. Gurbani has not condemned 'rituals' per se, but EMPTY rituals -this is worth noting, before we start to shoot our own feet. A 'ritual' is simply an externalisation of an internal aspect of devotion, or 'religious ceremony involving a series of fixed actions performed in a certain order' (Oxford Dictionary). By this definition, just about anything can qualify as a ritual within our daily Nitnem and Maryada. Let's really understand what is being asked of us, rather than painting everything with one straight brush like the Nakli Nirankaris (who strongly claim to be anti-ritual, yet have so many!) and the old school Gulab Dasis (interestingly, the infamous Giani Ditt Singh was also of this background). Gur Fateh! Niranjana. p.s. Happy New (Common) Year to all the Sangat!

Gur Fateh! "Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji" thanks for your informed response. I was wondering the same thing, as Manjot Singh Veer Ji indicated in his blog that he wore an "orange" hazooria whilst making his recent film and that he consider it to be 'anti-gurmat'. He is entitled to his views, however please could the forum help me understand something. Gurmat, the path of light, is a priniciple surely rather than a rule? Maybe I am mistaken, however I always seek principles over rules, for principles are timeless and work for all solutions, rules are rigid, fixed, static and specific and often temporary. Surely if one lives by 'gurmat' it is a reference to living in the spirit of Guru's Wisdom, the Gur (Light) Mat (way, path, wisdom, etc)? Now to come back to this use of the term 'anti-gurmat', this is an interesting term I see used many times on this forum, another one would be Manmukh, which is easier to understand, however 'anti-gurmat' is used in a manner applicable to a rigid set of rules rather than universally acceptable, timeless principles. Perhaps I am wrong, please offer your thoughts. Thanks, Niranjana.

This post is hilarious! The fanatical mindset of today's complaining and whining Sikhs is evident! I'm looking forward to seeing this movie and learning more about this Sikh actor. It's about time we had a positive Sikh role model in the public life, outside of politics and associated terrorism (not my opinion, but let's get real, this is exactly what the media the worldover present Sikhs as being -excepting those in the UK perhaps, where in the last 20 years we have seen some postive news through the likes of Ruben Singh and others). The whole issue of having his Hair visible is the frankly a non-issue, for those have issue with this, go and read the Sakhia of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhai Nand Lal's darshan of Maharaj after his kesi-ishnaan. In any event, what's the BIG deal??? The last time we had a Singh in a Hollywood movie, it was Naveen Andrews playing Captain "Kip" Singh with his stupid Aladin style turban and then we have the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen with another Aladin style turbaned Sikh who prays to Kali Mata's Murti! Finally we have the signs of something positive and all we can do is display our fanaticism and negative critique.

Gur Fateh Bhain Jee, I shall not comment on your analysis, but if you consider the Chand Tora is be a uniquely Sikh symbol, please could you indicate when it was adopted by the Sikhs? Did the Gurus utilise this symbol? Moreover, what are your views with regard to the variations found within what for want of a better term could be called Turban Badges or Pins (see the pictures of the Rattray Sikh Battlion and then those of the Dogras and others through to the modern day Khanda). In essence, Amandeep Singh is correct in saying "Deep Singhs question about the symbolism (if any) used by Guru Gobind Singh is the more important Q."

Gur Fateh! Has mentioned earlier in my post and also by Amandeep Singh on Tapoban, the Chand-Tora is an ancient symbol which pre-dates the Sikh Gurus. Its adoption by the Sikh Nihangs appears to have occured much later as discussed before. Its origins are undoubtedly linked to Shiva, however that is its "Origins". Full stop. Sure there are similarities between this symbolism and other traditions, however this occurs with many things -even Kesh, how many articles do we read by ALL types of Sikh groups linking kesh as a symbol and practice among amongst warriors, scholars and holy men of all faiths. I would suggest re-reading Amandeep's posts on Tapoban and here, wherein he has described clearly the gradual adoption and change of this type of symbolism within the Sikhs.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Pyare veer smartsingh ji, if you read what I exactly wrote I did not judge anyone. I did also write, "if the youth are wrong, then they will also learn. " My comment was open. I did say there is enough wisdom in California for them to sort out there problems. Anyway, This has nothing to do with the thread. It just a bit of stirring by Veer niranjana, who I am sure has his own personal agenda is in this. Whatever veer niranjana or anyone else wants to learn or discuss, they can with Mkhalsa ji. They all have his pm, or email and website address. The rest is just speculation, ninda or gossip. Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa! Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!! Veer Jagjit "Waheguru" To clarify, I have no personal agenda on this matter and am simply stating what others have aired and am certainly not "STIRRING" anything. In fact I draw your attention to my posts again and ask you to note the following comments from the first post:- "terms like AKJ and Taksal are treated as Gang Memberships by some of the younger members" and more importantly: "This of course doesn't reflect what is the true purpose of the AKJ or the Taksal" and also, "This all said, it applies to many Sikh movements today" I do hope you, who clearly seem to have the agenda agianst me, as witnessed by some of your comments in response to some of my earlier posts, can see there is no 'stirring' on my part and certainly NOT any "ninda" or "gossip". People asked some questions concerning present day situations and that is all I have commented on, that too using Manjot Veer's own website, so I fail to see why you feel the need to be so paranoid. Have a look at the Tapoban forum and one can see what is largely "YOUTH" from the AKJ and Taksal showing their ignorance of each other on certain threads, the same can be witnessed to a lesser extent on the Gursikhijeevan forum. I shall repeat for your benefit, I am not suggesting in any way that this is what the AKJ (or Taksal) are about and is not reflective of all their members. Thanks, Niranjana.

Mr Singh, What is so hard to swallow about a symbol or descriptive term that Guru Sahib may have used from something already in existence. For instance, the following items/terms/practices common amongst Sikhs are also common elsewhere amongst Shivites (particularly Kashmiri Shavism), tantriks, Moghul Darbars and others who are now commonly termed 'hindu':- -Thakts -Dastaar -Chaur Sahib over Maharaj -concepts such as Guru and Shish -concepts and terms such as nirgun and sargun, nirankar, akal etc -kesh -shastardhari -neela and kesri colours -vaisakhi festival and so on... This type of approach is not really going to get us far. Let's step away from the "Nangs" and usual chit-chat that this gets us into, the Chand can be understood as follows:- The modern day Khanda symbol (two kirpans, khanda/bhagauti and chakar) is a recent innovation, as this symbol is not found anywhere on paintings, photgraphs, printed works until about the 1920s. It appear to have come into prominence thereafter particularly after the 1940s. This is not too disimilar to how the Islamic symbol came into being c.1400s and how early Christians the fish as their symbol. The Chand-tora is something that existed prior to the formalisation of Sikhi and indeed before the Gurus. It seems to have come into prominent use during the 19th century if one judges by paintings and written accounts. At the risk of being termed a NANG or receiving the famous NANG alert I once did from certain members of this forum, it is beyond doubt that the Chand-Tora (or Aad-Chand) is an ancient symbol and has been used by variety of ancient warrior g roups from the Indian subcontinent who invoke Shiva, be it literally or symbolically. The Khalsa Bana is unique in its appeal to both the semetic and aryan faiths and this is evident also in the adoption of the Chand, which has both Islamic (as does the Neela Bana, hence its rejection by the Naamdharis) and 'hindu' significance (as mentioned already above), so like Bani, the Bana of the Khalsa also brings these two traditions (semetic and vedic) together in its role as the 'upjio pardana' that Bhai Vir Singh speaks of. Some may have seen the symbol of the Chakkar and Bhagauti symbol amongst the Rattray Sikh Battlion in photos, which is also another recent symbol from the mid 19th century. The Dogra contingent of this Battalion in fact adorned a symbol more akin to the Chand-Tora seen today worn by the UK Nihangs and the AKJ. It is interesting to note that the Nishan Sahibs of the Sikhs used during the 2nd Anglo Sikh Wars has no symbol and are plain black or dark blue. Here is one such Nishan Sahib: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010408/...ages/photo3.htm

My reading of Manjot Bhaji's "blog" indicates more than just goings on at the Samangam. It is clear his has illustrated his fustration with 'some' members of the 'youth' who treat the AKJ and Taksal as effective members of Gangs. A similar trend, although less pronounced has also been evident elsewhere too.

Gur Fateh Parvaan Hove! Rattan Jee, you are not alone in your experience. Have a look at the www.mkhalsa.com where Manjot Singh Veer Jee has written about his recent experiences and clearly shows that whilst in 'theory' we can all speak of being ONE Khalsa and so on, in 'reality', particularly in the US, Canada and UK, terms like AKJ and Taksal are treated as Gang Memberships by some of the younger members to the extent that they act not too differently from the followers of the infamous Priest Larenzo as they seek to enforce on all and sundry what they perceive as being "Tat Gurmat Maryada" through this gang mentality. This of course doesn't reflect what is the true purpose of the AKJ or the Taksal, however Manjot Singh's words speak for themselves with regard to the situation you describe and are particularly note worthy given that he himself is/was an active member of the AKJ and is regarded by many here to be a Chardikala Gursikh. This all said, it applies to many Sikh movements today.

Gur Fateh! Bhai Sahib, have a read of the Teja Singh Bhasauria literature and you can see for yourself how the line of thought you possess in raising this question is exactly what led to him ripping Bhagat Bani out of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If you wish to know more about Teja Singh Bhasauria, a summary can be found in the Encyclopedia of Sikhism (Harbans Singh) and also he is referenced by Madan Singh in his article on R aagmala (available on the Tapoban site).