Sarbloh

Very interesting video by Singh Sahib, thanks.

Fair enough. However, immature comments does no Sikh cause any justice, that's the point I was trying to get to accross. If we used our heads and projected ourselves correctly we would have got a lot further. Back to the issue of a statue of Gandhi, it's basically a non-issue. SF UK can use their skills on more beneficial direct issues effecting Gurdwaras, Society and Sikhs as a whole.

Sarpanch, Your immature attitude is a prime example of how the majority of us fall flat on our face when it comes to voicing our opinions. What influence do you expect to have over anyone with the kind of comments you make?

[EDITED] Some young internet warrior. It's not worth the effort. It would be more constructive to provide effective critiscm on the other views being put forward by the more "articulate" posters.

Maybe some of the more knowledgeable Sikhs can expand on this but doesn't Sri Sarbloh Granth mention the land of Sachkhand Sri Hazoor Sahib as being a historical place of bhagti going back many Yugs? Isn't there also mention of the previous manukha janams of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj linked to this land?

I was once told by a senior Metropolitan Police Officer that the Police generally do not have a problem with the wearing of kirpans or any other shastars by practicing Sikhs unless they feel threatened by the actions of the individual. Gursikhs like Baba Wajeer Singh Nihang of Sukh Sagar Radio fame walked freely around the UK, on public transport and crowded areas without ever experiencing any problems. Problems probably arrise when we don't have the jeevan and respect to carry those Shastars.

Well you hit the nail on the head. The title "Singh" given by Dasmesh Pita essentially needs to complemented by the Roop and the Reni and the Beni of the Khalsa. Otherwise one can mistake it for the Hindu Warrior Caste name. So again we get back to what the original poster outlined that Singh and Kaur is a title that's being abused and taken for granted.

These are typical of the negative incidents that the white media want to home in on, enhancing the savagery of Sikh men who go around brandishing swords which they use to fight their tribal fueds. Reading the article and seeing all these names. Wounding with intent and violent disorder can carry 5 year prison sentances. I suppose the accused have been in remand prison since Vasakhi. Was the fued really worth it in the end??

I still feel there needs to be serious consideration on allowing visible groups from dehdhari following backgrounds from performing keertan or katha within our Guru Ghars. This does not infringe on their right to enjoy Gurbani but as a kaum we need to ensure that our public keertanis and kathavachaks adhere to at least the core fundamental of Sikhi of not accepting any living person as the jagdi jyot. If we look at Raag, it can be seen as a throne on which Sikhi sits. If that Sikhi is violated or debased then that raag is just a raag and nothing more. I personally fail to see how it adds any benefit to us as a kaum if we accept something because we enjoy a specific performance at the expense of tolerating a false ideology.

Gurbani is sanjha, there is no way anyone can stop anyone from enjoying Gurbani. But a Gurdwara environment needs to be controlled and responsible in representing Sikhi at least as per the agreed consensus of the Akal Takht. The responsibility lies in ensuring that the portrayal and respect to Sikh maryada is done to its utmost best. Now if that means ensuring that Keertani or Jathas needs to be toned down (due to screaming and shouting as your put it) then we have the right and duty to do that. Guru Granth Khalsa has to understand the right to prohibit someone performing Keertan on Gurdwara stages for whatever reasons. Whether it’s over a dehadhari issue or the general vocal opinion of the individual. There needs to be some control in place otherwise we will constantly confuse the sangat with what is acceptable and what isn’t. We have difficulties in uniting because of our difference which have become bigger and bigger over the centuries. But our elders (of all Sikh backgrounds from your AKJ to Sant Samaj to Nihang Dals to SGPC) have sat together and attempted to unite us over the last 100 years and have produced a unified maryada under Sri Akal Takht. If we can not even loosely base our Sikhi on that than we have no chance of accepting each others differences. Avoid thinking Akal Takht = Joginder Vedanti = Badal because believe me there are still some mahan Gursikhs exerting pathic pressure within these circles. Times will change, if we are willing to have the patience.

There are no doubt some acute threats in all the above groups mentioned. Lets be realistic about this, there are and always will be groups who will make attempts to take advantage of the vunerablity of individuals. We do have groups of very vunerable people who classify themselves as Sikh but do not practice the jeevan. Hence, there’s a false sense that we are being successfully attacked by various groups. What we have to get out of our heads is that being born into a community does not make one a Sikh. Having a strong Sikh jeevan will combat all these threats and will encourage unity. I don’t think we should completely dismiss the agendas of groups like the rss, namdharis, radhosoamis, modern culture etc. But we should strenghthen our jeevans to withstand the pressures exterted on our kaum by these groups.

We owe it to Sikhi to put the right representatives of the Panth on stage. And that may mean not allowing someone who drinks or someone who is a dehadari follower or performs kes katal or has some vocal anti panthic views. Ultimately its down to responsibility. Now when we are presenting kirtan or katha to the sangat than we need to ensure that we are encapsulating as much of the Panthic package as we can. Within the Gurdwara Sahib the person performing kirtan/katha has been put on the stage of Sikhi and at that point in time that person is a minister for the Guru. The sangat are focusing their energy on this individual and are looking up at this individual. Often we become mesmerized and awestruck by the person performing kirtan/katha, that’s how powerful that person can be on the stage of a Gurdwaea If we did give our stages to naamdharis. radhosoamis, niddar singh, a mona, someone with outspoken anti panthic views etc then it is pretty irresponsible of us. For guidelines we have guidance from Sri Akal Takht Sahib to accept what is deemed panthic and you will find almost all gursikhs, kirtanya, kathakaars, learned scholers, jathabhandis, sampardays will acknowledge and respect those guidelines.

I have tried to explain my reasoning for having a greivance with someone performing keertan or katha. In this instance I feel Sri Akal Takht has given some guidance on who should perform keertan within Gurdwara Sahibs in Maata 13 mentioned above. In my view difference in opinions are acceptable to the point of the willingness to accept the 10 Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib Ji as salvation regardless of what state the individual is in their Sikhi journey. Differences in opinions are all part of the journey but there needs to be a common bond of an acceptance of Guruship.

The question is not their ablilty to perform kirtan in authentic raags but their association to a dynasty of Ram Singh's descendents who falsely claim a direct lineage of Guruship back to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. There are some serious distortions of historical events, cover ups, conspiracy theories, far fetched stories created in order to justify this dynasty’s authenticity and claims. They have even gone as far as to have dropped Guru Nanak’s name from “Nanak Naam Chardi Kala Tere Bhanay Sarbat Da Bhalla” to “Satguru Ram Singh Chardi Kala Tere Bhanay Sarbat Da Bhala”. Claims that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj hid for almost 200 years away from his Sikhs and then mysteriously ended up in a place called Hazaro, West Punjab, where he passed the Guruship to one Balak Singh or that Guru Gobind Singh never initiated women into the Panth. There are many other far fetched claims. Much of which is pretty insulting, hurtful and as close to nindya of our Panth Khalsa as one can get. Now I personally practice a disassociation with namdharis based on the above. I do not doubt their ability to perform raag or their pyar for Shabad Gurbani. But I do have a grievance with their claims of Guruship and for that reason I personally minimise my sangat with them. I would also like to direct the sangats attention to the following Hukumnama issued by Sri Akal Takht Sahib: A HUKUMNAMA REGARDING NAAMDHARI and other DEHDHARI Groups. Maata No: 13, passed by 5 Singh Sahibaan on 24th October 2000 at Sri Akal Takht Sahib, Amritsar, Punjab. In relation to Namdharis and Kirtan in Gurdwara Sahibs, 5 Singh Sahibaan agreed that those who do not believe in the 10 Gurus and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their salvation, and instead believe in Dehdhari Gurus and Devi Devte cannot be permitted to do Kirtan in Gurdwara Sahibs. Jathedar Joginder Singh Vendanti

Anyone know his where else in the UK he might be? I had the privelage of meeting babaji about a year ago and having a long discussion. If he comes to your area do take the time out to meet him. He's very approachable.

Shelsurj, Again what are you are claiming is not evidence and unfortunately if this is what your entire campaign group can come up with then we risk Sikhs being generalised as agitators. In effect instead of raising awareness you are degrading the creditability of any real valid issue. The Women who have allegedly been drugged and raped need to be encouraged to come forward, they have a moral responsibility and seva to their community and as a supportive network we must do everything to encourage the truth is portrayed and those women are supported. We can no longer use excuses of shame on the family, because of the issue is as big as your group claim then it’s time to take this large scale. If we are talking about personal experiences and use that as evidence then can say I have NEVER seen a “Sikh” female talk about being forced into converting either on the internet, in the news or through my own experiences at university. I have known of girls who were having relationships with Muslim lads at college and when caught out by their parents they claimed they were 'brainwashed' in an attempt to make things better with their family unfortunately some of these stories can start out like this. We are in a promiscuous society now where our youth are not as naive as we make out. People are sleeping around at their own free will. There is nothing Sikh or Islamic about going into a club, seducing a girl, sleeping with her and leaving her only to score notches on the bedpost. There is no religious motivation behind this whatsoever, so why is the real issue being clouded as a 'Conversion' issue?

This is the situation, 3000 people of “Sikh” background have signed up to Facebook using it to claim that Muslims drug, beat and rape Sikh women, and use them for prostitution. And as it stands there is not a shred of evidence for any of this. Sure there is hearsay, there’s the same photocopied note supposedly circulated from some Mosque somwhere from the 1990, SAS roadshows, BNP statements and lots of internet discussions. If all these Sikh girls are disappearing into the brothels of Lahore, there should be at least some evidence for it. Who are these girls, where are they from? They really now need to come forward for the sake of responsibly raising awarness within our community and we need to support those girls who are willing to come forward. A benti to whoever you are, it's time to speak up and come with real hard evidence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...ed=networkfront Call to prosecute anti-Muslim Facebook group Friday September 28, 2007 Guardian Unlimited People accusing Muslims of drugging, beating and raping Sikh women should be prosecuted for inciting religious hatred, an expert on religion has told Guardian Unlimited. Philip Lewis, who is the Bishop of Bradford's aide on interfaith matters, was responding to claims posted on the social networking site Facebook. The group is called STOP OUR SIKH SISTERS BEING DRUGGED, RAPED, BEATEN AND USED FOR PROSTITUTION and claims that Sikh, Hindu and white girls from the ages of 13 to 22 are "being held against their will, drugged and gang raped" for the "pleasure" of Muslim extremists. There is no evidence on the site to support the claims and Singh Kaur, the group's creator, provides no information about sources. But the group has attracted 2,900 members - nearly all are young British Sikhs. Dr Lewis said: "If there is a serious concern being raised then it's a matter for the police. If there is not a case to be answered, people need to be prosecuted. "It is pernicious rumour-mongering that needs to be exposed. It's a form of slander. It is exacerbating relations between communities." He said that the issue was not on the radar of religious groups in Bradford, one of the "hotspots" cited by the group. A Scotland Yard spokesman said there was no evidence that such activity was taking place in London, another allegedly "affected area". One anti-racism activist urged people to either come forward with evidence or stop agitating. Rob Deeks works for Aik Saath, a project that brings together Sikh, Muslim and Hindu youths from the Slough area, in Berkshire. It was set up following clashes between young people from different Asian communities. He said: "Whoever is behind it is doing a good job of stirring up ill-feeling. What's more worrying is there are 3,000 people who believe these claims." The Facebook row is the latest salvo in an ongoing dispute between Hindu, Sikh and Muslim communities about forced or aggressive conversions. Senior figures from Hindu and Sikh groups have accused Muslims of using underhand, sometimes violent, methods to convert girls to Islam. There has never been a formal investigation and there is no official complaint on record. However one Sikh organisation said there was evidence of "heavy proselytising" on campus. Indarjit Singh, from the Network of Sikh Organisations, said: "The community is very concerned."

i see ur point. but ultimatley individuals are reponsible for their own actions too. i suppose the question is when is an action of killing a good deed or a bad deed? Can a nindak be compared to a tyrant? if a tyrant has committed gross acts of human violations i can see a valid case for assinating him/her but what about a nindak, is that in the same category? hypothetically speaking, if some person came and swore at my guru, should the reaction be greater or equal to the reaction of tyrant killing a 1000 people. In many cases reactions are influenced by the people around you and also how high level the actual issue is or what personal gain can be achieved by the reaction. That is why you will find a strong reaction to one issue and a non reaction to an almost identical issue,. How some influential people/groups express their emotions will influence the reactions of others. But going back to your original point, from what I can remember in various Rehatnamas, we are encouraged to form a disassociation with “nindaks” as a pose to any issuing of death sentences etc.

I think at this stage all people can do is help raise the funds. The bank details are on the website, if anyone wishes to contribute then they should just send whatever they can.

Nicely put!

Good way of putting it. In theory the Khalsa is a Sant Samaj or at least if we hold up to the real ideals of the Khalsa than we should be aiming to be a Samaj of Sants.

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

Based on the picture the original poster has uploaded I personally would not be troubled if I saw an elderly/disabled person sitting on a chair. At the end of the day we all make own choices and we could chose to sit on a chair in the diwan or we could chose not to sit on a chair in the diwan. I once say a disabled lady climb up 2 flights of stairs of the GuruGhar and then crawl past the crowded Sangat to perform a "matha tek" in front of Maharaj. To me that was one of the most inspirational sights I had ever seen. When we start looking at Karam etc. I think the danger is that we can become judgemental about who and why someone is sitting in the diwan. Like my mum always tells me just let people do darshan as they choose, at the end of the day each of us have a personal relationship with Maharaj which is unique. All we should be doing at this stage is focusing on our relationship not pondering over someone else’s Karam.

Joginder Singh Vedanti is currently acting the role titled the "Jathedar" of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. The weight and value this role holds within the Panth is debatable, certainly the actions (or rather lack of them) of Joginder Singh Vedanti have been questioned over the last few years. Sri Akal Takht Sahib is the Throne of the Almighty. It is supreme-most seat of the Sikh nation and all those who choose to owe their allegiance to this Throne. Akal Takht Sahib is not an ordinary shrine. It is not an organisation. A Jathedar means the chief or the leader of a Jatha (band) of an organisation. Hence the term Jathedar in this context is wrong. There can be a "caretaker" of Akal Takht Sahib or there can be a Jathedar of Sarbat Khalsa (the Sikh Nation). He must represent the whole of the Sikh nation. He must have the confidence of the whole of the Sikh nation. It implies that he should be SELECTED through the consensus of the whole of the Sikh nation. The proper course to SELECT the Jathedar of the Sarbat Khalsa or the "caretaker" of Akal Takht Sahib, is to convene a Sarbat Khalsa. It should be a gathering of representatives of all Sikh organisation and Sikh intellectuals (who consider themselves as the subjects of , and owe their loyalty solely to, Akal Takht Sahib). The S.G.P.C. represents the management of the Sikh shrines only. But, the S.G.P.C. is not the Sarbat Khalsa for the purpose of the selection of the "Jathedar of the Sarbat Khalsa" or for the appointment/selection of the "caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib". This Sewadar should be selected by way of a Gumatta of the Sarbat Khalsa. The caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib should be named as Mukh Sewadar (chief attendant) or Sarbrah (manager) or Nigran (custodian) or Safir (ambassador) of Bulara (spokesman) or Diwan (a sort of minister). The caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib is not a monarch, nor is he like the Prime Minister nor is the Pontiff (like Catholic Pope). He is just a speaker, a spokesman, an attendant. He is not a dicator. He can not issue Hukamnamas as a per his whims of his will. Akal Takht Sahib was revealed by Guru Hargobind Sahib on June 15,1606. The foundation stone of the building of Akal Takht Sahib was laid down by Guru Hargobind Sahib himself. (Guru Hargobind Sahib did not built or create Akal Takht Sahib, he revealed it. Akal Takht Sahib belonged to Waheguru and it was the Almighty who could have created Akal Takht Sahib). The rest of the structure was completed by Baba Buddha (the veteran Sikh servant) and by Bhai Gurdas (Sikh scholar) only. No mason or any other person was permitted to participate in the construction of the structure. Guru Hargobind Sahib himself was the Custodian of the Takht of Waheguru. According to a source, when Guru Hargobind Sahib remained in Gwalior Fort prison, he had asked Baba Buddha to perform the services of Darbar Sahib (HARIMANDAR SAHIB) and Bhai Gurdas to take care of Akal Takht Sahib. It was not the appointment of Bhai Gurdas as the Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. It is ignorance to say that Bhai Gurdas was the Jathedar or the Custodian of Akal Takht Sahib. He was just the caretaker. Guru Hargobind Sahib left Amritsar in 1635. Between 1635 and 1696 (until the death of Harji), Amritsar was under the control of the descendants of Pirthi Chand (elder brother of Guru Arjan Sahib). In April 1698, Guru Gobind Singh Sahib appointed Bhai Mani Singh as Granthi of Darbar Sahib and Akal Takht Sahib. On December 30, 1711, Bahadur Shah, the Mogul emperor, "assigned" the Jagir of Chakk Ram Das (Amritsar) to Ajit Singh Palit (He had been adopted by Mata Sunder Kaur. Later, she discarded him). Bahadur Shah wanted to use Ajit Singh Palit against Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, the Sikh General. Ajit Singh returned to Delhi after the death of Bahadur Shah (February 27, 1712). After this Baba Kahan Singh of the so-called Tat Khalsa, who looked after Akal Takht Sahib and Mahant Amar Singh of the so-called Bandai Khalsa, who had the control of Jhanda Bunga. Bhai Mani Singh is not referred as so-called Jathedar in any Sikh work. Bhai Ratan Singh Bhangu calls him "Pujaran sion vado pujari" (chief priest among the priests). After the martyrdom of Bhai Mani Singh (June 24,1734), there was no one to take care of the shrines at Amritsar during the dark period of the Sikh history. There were Sarbat Khalsa gatherings at Akal Takht Sahib, at least since 1726, but no reference is available as to who convened these gatherings. It is presumed that Jathedars of the Sikh army used to call these gatherings. Later, Budha Dal (the Sikh veterans) took over the charge of the shrines. As the caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib, he introduced authentic Sikh practices at Akal Takht Sahib and Darbar Sahib. Baba Prem Singh Hoti wrote a book about Akali Phula Singh in 1912. Baba Prem Singh did not use the term Jathedar even once. On October 12,1920, when some initiated Sikhs, belonging to so-called low castes, went to Akal Takht Sahib to offer an Ardas (prayer), to caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib and the Granthis slipped away. The gathering found the Takht Sahib unattended. A Jatha (band) of 25 Sikhs was selected to take care of Takht Sahib. Bahi Teja Singh Bhucher was appointed as the Jathedar of the Jatha. Bhai Teja Singh was to be the chief of the Jatha and not Akal Takht Sahib. On October 13,1920, the Deputy Commissioner of Amritsar called a meeting of the (former) priests and the Sikh leaders. The priests abstained from the meeting. This meeting selected an ad-hoc Committee to look after the affairs of Darbar Sahib and Akal Takht Sahib. The Committee comprised Sundar Singh Ramgarhia (the manager of Akal Takht Sahib and Darbar Sahib). Professor Teja Singh, Bawa Harkishan Singh, Bhai Deva Singh, Bhai Bahadur Singh Hakim, Bhai Chanda Singh, Jathedar Kartar Singh Jhabbar, Jathedar Teja Singh Bhucher and Doctor Gurbakhash Singh. This Committee, later, called a Sarbat Khalsa gathering for November 15-16, 1920. A Hukamnama, signed by Dr. Gurbakhash Singh, a member of the ad-hoc Committee, was issued. (This Hudamnama wa not issued by Jathedar Teja Singh Bhucher, the Jathedar of the Jahta appointed to take care of Akal Takht Sahib on October 12, 1920). Bhai Kahan Singh of Nabha published his encyclopedic work, Mahan Kosh in 1930. He did not even mention anything such as the Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. Even after 1920 or 1925 of even 1947, the caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib, (though the term Jathedar was being used by the leaders of the SGPC and the other officials) was not known to be any specific entity. When on November 29, 1961, the Panj Piaray gave their verdict from Akal Takht Sahib against Master Tara Singh, Fateh Singh ect., the so-called Jathedar came to be known as something extraordinary. When on October 2, 1962, the Fateh Singh group wrested the control of the S.G.P.C. from the Master Tara Singh, Jathedar Achchhar Singh, the caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib resigned his position to protest against the mismanagement of the affairs of Darbar Sahib and the other shrines. No one bothered about the institution of the caretaker of Akal Takht Sahib. No one reacted when Sadhu Singh Bhaura, who had been defeated in the S.G.P.C. elections, was appointed as so called Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib. It was not only on September 26, 1979, when Jathedar Jagdev Singh Talwandi and Jathedar Gurcharan Singh Tohra approached Akal Takht Sahib for settlement of the internal affairs of the Akali Dal, that the so called Jathedar of Akal Takht Sahib came to be known as some "extra special" entity. source sikhmarg.com