Ulterior Motive Of So-called Community Leaders

[TavPrasad Singh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Please can all read the below discussion I have been having with so-called community leaders, the attitude they portray towards Sikhi is very worrying;

Mr Ranger’s email:

Dear All,

I am pleased to inform you that the Slough Sikh School is organising

a function on the 18th March 2005 at Haveli Banqueting Hall Slough.

Details attached. Telephone Numbers for cotact are also there.

Please support the school and also at the same time enjoy the

evening with

good food and people

Tickets are only £30 each.

Regards,

Rami Ranger

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Why couldnt your think tank devise a more honourable way of

collecting monies for a Sikh School?

Unless I am missing the plot a Sikh School will teach Gurmat. Guru

Nanak Dev Ji taught us to raise & earn monies in an honest manner

(krit kamaie). If we are going to raise money in a banqueting hall

surrounded by alcohol & animal carcasses then we are not abiding by

Guru Nanak Dev Ji's hukam.

Monies raised in an anti Gurmat way cannot be used to promote Gurmat,

this is hypocrisy.

Is this the best example you can set to the younger generation?

Please rethink your strategy before offending other Sikhs.

Personally, as a young Sikh, I would rather wait for the donations to

slowly trickle in than collect large sums of dirty cash.

----

Mr Ranger’s reply:

Lets see how you will serve the Sikh community. By attacking fellow Sikhs

you are making the job of anti Sikhs easier. We lost an empire because Sikhs

betrayed Sikhs. Is your job to support Sikhs or discredit them? I hope you

achieve something good with your actions.

As far as I am concerned I sustained employment of 2000 people in Britain in

line with our Guru's teachings of hard work and honest living. Do visit my

websites below for an education.

Fanatic are tarnishing our religion and I hope you are not one of those who

hate all those who do not act according to narrow interpretation of Sikh

religion.

Regards,

Rami Ranger

Sun Oil Ltd

Sun House, 428 Long Drive

Greenford, Middlesex UB6 8UH

----

Mr Gidar’s reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have read you mail to Rami Ranger. Let me clarify some issues.

This school is going to be a VA school which will have 20% other faith children.

We are not doing anything dishonest, and it is the choice of the people to

drink alcohol if they so please.

Please can you let me know how you distinguish between the money we

give to the gurdawara, some people who own off-licences and restaurants

which have meat on the menu donate. I have not seen that money being identified

and rejected.

Sikhism is about equality and choice and respect for all. Please can

you tell me more about Guru Nanak Dev Ji's hukam ( for your kind

information Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not make any HUKAMS, he preached)and where it

says we cannot raise money for a building to be used as a Sikh School by

having a function. Extremism of any kind is dangerous whether they be Muslims

or Sikhs.

I can assure we will not be pouring alcohol into people’s mouths and

putting meat in the dall. The function is not being held in a gurdawara.

Kind regards

Ravi Gidar

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh!

You are blatantly organising an event that is against Sikhi. How more

obvious can it be?

If you cant see it then you are blind. Its a sorry state of affairs

to have people like yourself who are clueless promoting your own

blend of Sikhism where everything goes. The School is focused on

promoting Sikhi, you are so far from understanding what this means

its amasing.

Please tell me one sakhi where Guruji said that your kind of function

is acceptable. You really have no respect for Guruji and the status

Gur Nanak Dev Ji has for Sikhs. Sikhi is based upon Gurmat and for

Sikhs this is hukam, there is no two ways about it, its not what you

& your other egoist friends want to do.

You are creating the anti sikh environment within your function, this

is as good as pouring alcohol in peoples mouths.

You are very quick to use terms such as extremist. What I have

highlighted is the basics of Sikhi, hopefully this is what you will

be teaching in the Sikh School. That means that every pupil in this

school will become an extremist. If you wish them to be taught wierd

Sikhi that you seem to practice then its best to remove "Sikh" from

the name and open a normal state school.

Reflect on your actions. Promote a Sikh School by actions that

promote Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

----

Mr Gidar’s reply:

These days it has become fashionable to apply two litmus tests to the

definition of a Sikh. One is that of political correctness. We have all been

to Sikh gatherings where, if your views fall even a hair short of an

independent Sikh homeland, you are quickly branded "anti-Sikh." This also

applies to meat and alcohol. I don't want to argue with you guys but let us

help in the way we think is best. If you disagree with me then don't

participate but don't give complaints about being anti - sikh etc.

Ravi Gidar

----

Mr Ranger’s reply:

Dear Ravi,

Please do not waste your time with a "Bad Mechanic who will always blame his

tools"

I can easily tell you that this man is neither educated nor successful in

his life and being a fanatic is the only credit to his fame. Please let him

at least feel superior even though he is not.

Regards,

Rami Ranger

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

This is the final resort for you to treat me as some little kid and

fob me off. I have presented and arguement with substance & truth and

its time for you to reflect on what exactly you are promoting.

If you cannot understand the damage you will cause then I urge you to

stop involving yourself in Sikh Activities as it is beyond your

limited capacity.

----

Dr Singh-Raud’s reply:

Sat-Siri-Akal Veer Jees,

Firstly please lets not get personal in these issues.

However I would like to say that there are a number of ways one can

help raise money. As far it is not in an illegal manner, is not

stained, and is respectful of others views, in my opinion, it is

fine.

Since there is a wide spectrum of Sikhs, we have to watch that one

group does not see itself as the only voice. It is a given fact for

example that there are those Khalsa that eat meat (Jhatka)and those

that don't eat meat. There is a whole debate on issues such as these,

which scholars such as Sundeep Singh Brar(USA) have had an active

input.

Hence at the Oxford and Cambridge Sikh Alumni Association Dinner we

had both vegetarian and meat dishes to cater for both. It was not a

religious function, but rather a funding raising academic function

for Sikh Scholars and parents of Sikh youths who wanted to support

the organisation.

The dangers of imposing one groups views on others is that we walk

away from Guru Nanak Dev Jee's philosophy of tolerance.

Gurfateh

Harkirtan

Dr H. Singh-Raud JP

BSc(Hons), MRSC, CChem, GIBiol, PGCE, MCollP, MEd(Cantab), PhD, FRSA

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Please answer me one question: Will you collect monies for a Gurdwara

in the same manner? There is no difference in this School and a

Gurdwara. In fact the potential of the School is massive.

"The dangers of imposing one groups views on others is that we walk

away from Guru Nanak Dev Jee's philosophy of tolerance".

This point seems to be directed to my stance on the situation, its

seems a nice way for you to label me as an Extremist again.

Sikhi ethics is based upon morals rather than what the law sees as

legal. This programme is morally wrong.

You talk about Guruji's message of tolerence, is that all Guruji

taught? Why do you selectively forget the remaining phylosophy?

----

Dr Singh-Raud’s reply:

At no point was there any intention to label any one. Just because one takes a stance does not make anyone an extremist. "Yesterday's terrorists are today's freedom fighters".

With regards to collection for a gurdwara, it is known that funds are just collected from Sikhs, just as much as this school is not just for the Sikhs but infact for 80% of the Sikhs and 20% other minorities.

Veer Jee you say there is no difference between this school and a gurdwara, I beg to differ. The gurdwara is a place of worship (spritual).

Finally are you saying that Sikhs are not allowed to eat meat?

Gurfateh

Harkirtan

Dr H. Singh-Raud JP

BSc(Hons), MRSC, CChem, GIBiol, PGCE, MCollP, MEd(Cantab), PhD, FRSA

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Will this school not be promoting what is taught in Sadh Sangat in a

Gurdwara? If not them please remove Sikh from the school's title.

All things that relate to Sikhi should be treated with the same

reasoning. Gurmat is not confirmed to a Gurdwara. Sikhs practice in

their daily lives and need to remember what they stand for. If you

want to attach Sikh to this School then you stick to Gurmat. Its

simple.

Meat is not served in langar, Akal Takht has issued a hukamnamma on

this. Those who wish to disregard are acting out their our manmat. If

you wish to feed people meat & alcohol for something promoting

"Sikhi" then its hypocritical. Dont pick and choose we must regard

Guruji bachan as hukam.

And yes meat is not allowed in Sikhi. Everyone knows thats no matter

what our learned scholars may think.

----

Mr Ranger’s reply:

Dear Harkirtan,

Do Sikhs want to move with the times like the rest of the world or

do we want to go back to the days when we were fighting the Mughals? The

next attack on Sikhs will come from the technological front and if we are

not acting and behaving like modern and progressive Sikhs then help us

God.

Regards,

Rami Ranger

----

Dr Singh-Raud’s reply:

Dear Rami Veer Jee,

I don't understand the root of your question. Sikhs can wear turbans, be amritari and be extremely progressive.

Gurfateh

Harkirtan

Dr H. Singh-Raud JP

BSc(Hons), MRSC, CChem, GIBiol, PGCE, MCollP, MEd(Cantab), PhD, FRSA

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Just the answer I expected from Mr Ranger. For you to tarnish our

history like this shows the respect you have for Guruji and the

Puratan Sikhs WHO died for the Sikh Religion & for Sikh Ethics, they

didnt die for you to throw parties.

We owe them what we are today, the least we can do is to teach our

history, the morals and above all Gurbani to the next generation.

However you are instead teaching the next generation to turn their

backs to their Forefathers and their sacrifices & principles. Is this

the progression you wish to promote?

How exactly does my suggestion of fund raising by better means (such

as Kirtan Darbars and Sports Events) not make us modern & progressive

Sikhs?

----

Mr Ranger’s reply:

We also need to be of progressive thinking. I do not see Sikh Prime

Minister or the Chief of Army Amrit Dhari.

Regards,

Rami Ranger

Sun Oil Ltd

Sun House, 428 Long Drive

Greenford, Middlesex UB6 8UH

----

My reply:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

This discussion continues to amaze me and shows the bad attitude you

have towards Sikhi, Mr Ranger.

You have no value for Guruji. Just to reminder you, but I guess you

dont even care, Guru Gobind Singh Ji requested the Panj Pyare himself

for Amrit. For you to feel amrit affects a person's progressive

thinking is a show of your narrow mindedness. The more I look into

your thinking I feel more worried about what you actually stand for.

[Guest SScom]

They must see nice big cars hence why they are willing to sell Sikhi in such a disrespectful way.

The thing driving them is not teaching Gurmat at all really... the thing driving them is maya.

Moving with the times?! This is a funny term. Maybe the practices change with time - in terms of how before we used to fight battles on the field, we now fight them in politics - but our ideals, our teachings dont change. Our practices are based upon these ideals and teachings which make us Sikhs .. always learning.

[kurtas]

I take it Mr Gidar not seen the Maha Prashad on offer at Hazur Sahib.

They having Jhatka meat at this do ?

I can understand the issue with alcohol but meat is seperate issue.

[GurSa Singh]

Set aside the meat issue for the moment.

The whole attitude of Rami Ranger towards Sikhi and Amrit is appalling and if he's a supposed Sikh representive then I am not happy with him taking on this role.

Alcohol (and I believe the meat too) cannot and must not be served at any Sikh related event. What else are we going to have bollywood dancing mixed with kirtan. For Gods sake we are raising money for a Sikh School where we will learn about the ethics of Sikhi, to top this these guys will pour alchohol down everyones mouth in the name of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

I am disgusted!

[Guest Sony]

Where is this happening?

[sukhnidhaan]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

Some points in response to the letters above:

Gursikhs don't invoke 'terror'- although the josh of true Khalsa spirit may make the weaklings quake in their pants. LOVE is what radiates from proper Sikhs towards all. That does not mean that they are not tolerant of other ways. Just prepared to stand up to principles for the greater GOOD.

Now what's so good about alcohol? In fact, there are many scientific studies proving long-term damage e.g. to the liver done by it. Even the short-term effects are to impair brain activity. Moreover, there is no confutation over the matter that ALCOHOL IS AGINST SIKHI- Full-stop. No two-ways about it.

Personally, I am against meat altogether but understand the Akaal Takhat maryada is yet unclear anout the terms. However, ANY intoxicants are clearly a SIN and bujjer kurehit.

Just for the sake of raising money, would the fundraisers for a Sikh school under the name of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji WANT or even DARE to promote/ temp/ condone SINNING?!

It's all well and good to say "it's personal preference", but why the necessity of drink in the first place? Alcohol, more often than not leads to ANTI-social behaviour. It is a disgrace to the greatness of Guru Sahib's sweet Amrit nectar.

True Gursikhs are FREEDOM fighters for all humanity against the dangers of NASCHAE of secular society. Now, what's happened to your SANT_SIPAHI characters- or are you just proud of your acadameic letters after your supposedy 'Sikh' names.

It was Guru Gobind Singh Ji who said: 'Rehit piaare mudh ko, Sikh piaara nahi(n)'. Surely we should be striving towards that through all our daily actions and have changaa bharvaab on those who surround us. It is partly because of 'liberalists' who excuse themselves for anti-Gurmat activities that Sihs are confused for typical drunken Panjabis. Please be a little more OPEN-minded to the HEALTH and well-being of society and mankind at large.

And about 'moving wit the times', how about going back to First Principles? Sikhi and our Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is full of Universal and TIMELESS truths. It's US than eed to change; NOT Sikhi!

Thanks for your time.

Bhul chuk maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!

[GurSa Singh]

Where is this happening?

89262[/snapback]

This ant-Gurmat event is taking place at Haveli Banqueting Hall in Slough on 18 March to allegedlly raise money for a Gurmat Sikh School in Slough.

They will have various guests of honour there and will be serving alcohol and meat whilst discussing the teaching of our Sikh Gurus. It's a slap on the face.

[sher_panjabi]

amrit kouraa, bikhiaa meettee

Nectar seems bitter to you, and poison is sweet.

saakat kee bidh, nainuhu ddeettee

Such is your condition, you faithless cynic, which I have seen with my own eyes.

(Ang 892)

Salokh Mehlaa Theeja.

Shalok, Third Mehl:

maanas bhariaa aaniaa, maanas bhariaa aae.

One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup.

jith peethai math dhoor hoe, baral pavai vich aae.

Drinking the wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;

aapunaa paraaeiaa na pachhaanee, khasamhu dhakae khaae.

he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master.

jith peethai khasum visrai, dargeh milai sajaae.

Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord.

jhoothaa madh mool na peechee, jae kaa paar vasaae.

Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power.

naanak nadree sach madh paaeeai satgur milai jis aae

O Nanak, the True Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True Wine.

sadhaa saahib kai rang rehai, mehalee paavai thaao.

He shall dwell forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||

(Ang 554)

[Jagroop Singh]

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

Sadh Sangat Jio,

The Slough Sikh School is a GurMat project - it will be excellent for Slough and Sikhs in general.

However the majority of the Trust members, who i know personally, do not have the kind of GurSikhi Jeevan and Sochni which would make them understand why this should not be happening.

They have good intentions at heart but do not understand why this is so inappropriate. What i am writing sounds harsh but it is the truth.

Such situations as this are sad; however, please let us not think 'we will not support this project and will not donate'. i intend to continue supporting the Trust when it does things positively and not supporting the Trust when i think it is doing something negatively - as in this case.

Sadly, we must accept that many people who attempt to do Seva do not have unflingching faith in Siree Guru Sahib Ji - to the point where they worry about 'how will we raise all the money'. It is this which leads to 'compromises' such as this.

VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!

[GurSa Singh]

Jagroop Singh Ji,

This compromise is dangerous. How cheap is our Sikhi? Can we throw it away in order to raise a few thousand pounds? Can we put a price on what the Gurus, Saheeds and Puratan Sikhs have done for us?

For some people it is that easy to throw away their Sikhi. There is no "majboori" in serving alcohol or meat, it is a personal preference, people do this out of choice.

Will Guru Gobind Singh approve of booze being served in the name of Sikh progression? I don't think so. So what right do we have to allow this to happen!!

What's the point of a SIKH school if we can't even follow our Guru's Hukam properly? These funds will not benefit the Sikh Kaum, we will reap what we sow!