kirtarur bir

[navjotsingh]

ive talk to some taksali singhs who said they have seen the one baba deep singh wrote and it does have raag mala in it, even the worlds smallest guru granth sahib which guru gobind signh wrote has raagmala in it.

[r.singh]

Why does every discussion have to be about raag mala for you guys? And the funny thing is, you don't present facts or anything either. Just rumours and stories. Guru Gobind Singh Jee wrote a copy of the Guru Granth Saahib? That still exists??? Would you care to present some evidence of this?

There is a lot of interesting stuff on the Kirtarpui Bir and about old Birs in general. People should try reading up on it. And Khalsa Soulja, you're right, Bhai Gurdas Jee was human. But several hundered 'mistakes'? And then Guru Arjun Dev Jee accepted this and placed it in Darbar Saahib without the appropriate corrections? The Kirtarpuri Bir that Bhai Khan Singh Nabha talked about is clearly different than the one that is there today.

[navjotsingh]

so are you tryig to say the bir which was passes down by the gurus is sora different, then why do we bow down to them.

[Gupt_Singh]

r singh i see wat ur saying

no one has really given me any info on the "there was a different kartarpuri bir" theory........if u could explain it in alot more detail i would be happy :umm:

which bir that remains TODAY can we put our faith in?

[r.singh]

Umm, no, that's not what I'm saying Navjot Singh. I'm saying that the Kirtarpuri Bir there today has differences as compared with the normal Birs we use (which are supposed to be based on the Damdami Bir). It also has differences when compared with what Bhai Khan Singh Nabha and others of that time said was in the Kirtarpuri Bir around at that time. There are books written giving various details about the kirtarpuri bir. If you want to know more, read them.

Which one should you have faith in? The Damdami Bir was what Guru Gobind Singh Jee had written by Bhai Mani Singh and that's what the modern Birs are supposed to be based on. Old saroops had various additions, which were eventually removed by the panth. The only controversy that remains is over RaagMalaa and about whether it was added in after the Damdamee Bir was written. Unfortunately, we don't have the Damdamee Bir around anymore for reference. So that's the only thing the panth has left for you have to figure out on your own, Raag Malaa. As for spellings and stuff like that, it's based on the Damdamee Bir, not the current Kirtarpuri Bir.

[Gupt_Singh]

r singh

where can i learn more about the "original" kartarpuri bir (in english pref)

what old birs (copies) of the damdama bir are left and how old r they?

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

wow, for the first time we are actually seeing some educated discussions! This is the example that we all need to follow when discussing such controversial topics, attack the points, not the author. I don't think the admins will have any problem in letting this discussion take place UNTIL someone starts to make this debate a one Jatha vs. the other Jatha debate. So be careful of that.

[r.singh]

Khalsa Soulja,

I don't have the references for books on Kartarpuri Bir offhand with me right now. I've read some material on it and will have to get the references for you. Hopefully within a couple of days. Maybe also try an internet search.

As far as old birs go. It's a huge topic and quite interesting. I personally want to learn alot more on this. Most puratan saroops can be traced back to the damdamee Bir, the original Kirtarpuri Bir or the version attributed to Bhai Banno. Many of the birs written based on the earlier birs (Kirtarpuri and Bhai Bano) have extra shabds by Mira Bai and Bhagat Soor Daas as well as banee attributed to Guru Nanak Dev Jee. The birs written from the Damdamee Bir would be more common and are basically the same deal in terms of extra shabds. Some have extra shabds added at the end, some don't. You can find puratan Birs without raagmalaa and with raag maala, along with various other shabds. The Pitialay valay rajay apparently have a very old saroop which apparently the founder of their raj (Baba Ala) had made from the Kirtarpuri Bir. This Bir apparently doesn't have Raag Maala. Others probably do.

Basically, Maharaj deeaa Biraan and other textual material (janam sakhees etc) were copied directly from older copies. If someone happened to throw in something extra, then the scribes writing the new bir would copy it right in, without knowing whether it was in the original or not. By cross referencing different copies, people were able to figure out the extraneous material (which was usually at the end, although Mira Bai's stuff usually comes in Raag Maru but generally not in Damdamee Based birs). There were al

so of course Birs which didn't have any extra material.

I'm beginning to ramble. This is a very big topic, as there were hundreds of puratan saroops, if not thousands. Unfortunately, our panth didn't bother studying them in detail (except for a few people) or taking proper care of them and we've lost a lot of them. The biggest loss may have been during the 84 attack, when several hundred saroops were burnt by the army (or stolen). Many old saroops are also being destroyed by our own people. They decide that the saroop is too old (birdh) and they cremate it, without taking note that it is of historical value. I recall reading a story in some indian paper about 2 or 3 years back, about an old pothi at Keeratpur prepared by Guru Har Rai Saahib Jee. Nobody had really studied it properly. Some scholar (forgot his name) went to do some research from it and when he got there, he found that the pothi sitting there wasn't the original he'd looked at just a couple of years earlier. In fact, it was something completely different. He complained to the SGPC and the authorities at KesGarh Saahib, as they were in charge of it, but I don't think anything was done about it. Apparently, somebody just stole it and left something else in its place. There are probably a lot of other old pothies and saroops scattered throughout india and pakistan that we need to find and document. Even the ones we have need to be documented. It would be fairly simple to just take a digital image of each ang, so as to have a permanent record incase of some future catastrophe like 84.

I'll try finding references on Kartarpuri Bir and other older saroops and posting for you when I get some time.

(ps. a book that gives info on the Bhai bano bir and ones copied from it is 'About Compilation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib,' by prof. Sahib Singh. This of course is the English Translation)

[Gupt_Singh]

r singh

thanks man that was interesting

i am shocked that ppl havent studied this in more detail actually

so basically we can cross reference all the old birs and work out a picture of what is real and what is not......hmmmm.......

theres a bir written by baba deep singh that i think still remains today, whats that like? ragmalla? extra stuff? also why would people add extra stuff at the end? there were malicious people around but i doubt bani was being added here and there all the time......