I Am Willing To Be Khalistani.

[proud_to_be_singhni]

what khalsa fauj said....so true.......vaheguru.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, just repoding to your points below. Hope you take it with the sehaj in which it was written.

You once again rave about your misguided sense of history. The majority of the Sikhs were fighting in the jungles, and were hunted with prices on their heads. Clearly the majority of the Sikh nation does follow the Akal thakht rehit maryada, or a jatha which is under it. Rejection of nirmallas, udasis, etc is widespread in the Panth. History is testiment to the fact they were active with Anti-sikh forces from the times of the Gurus, to modern day. Their personal interests have always been threatened by a strong Khalsa Panth.

I see no difference between Baba Deep singh or Bhai Randhir singh, Baba Gurbaksh singh or Baba kharak Singh. They were all inspired purely by Gurbani and dedicated to the Khalsa Panth. They were all Tat Khalsas. Your whole theories of Bhausauria sikhi, Amritsar sikhi, snatan sikhi,is complete rubbish. Bhausauria has his views, whic were dealt with by the Akal Thakht sahib. He had no influence on the scale which you guys make out. You just link his name to mainstream sikh thought to justify the existence of these so-called sampardas. Then just add Damdami taksal, to give it some legitamacy. But no matter what, if people have not taken Amrit, do not do ishnan, do not believe in Amrit. When this is so clearly against gurbani, how can they be accepted as mainstream sikhs? The Akal Thakht does not accept them so why should we? How are they any different to bhausaria?

Plus there is no AKJ gatkha, Taksal gathka, etc. There is just gaktha or shaster vidya.

Plus why is it when we get to the nitty gritty of facts,. You seem to disappear again. Veer ji, if you canot back up your theories by facts, then do not keep ranting on about your theories. I specifically asked you to from 25 years of history to name me one prominemnt Gursikh, Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh, Bhai Sukhdev Singh babbar, , etc who killed any innocent through blind rage? Pyare veer ji, you started this thread, so now please back it up with facts?

Once again veer ji, when I ask to justify your mirch massal comment, you fail agian miserably to provide facts to back up your comments. I take offence that you are making such comments aginst Bhai Tarlocahn singh, a widely respected scholar of the Singh sabha Movemnt, and Veer harpreet Singhs father. So veer ji either re-tract or accept you do spread mis-information in an intentional manner to cause doubt in those innocent minds who come to learn.

Lastly veer ji, I often find those who complain about tunnel vision, i.e. neo-nihangs, snatanists, and unlabelled like yourself, often suffer from the same symptons. You all complain about predjudice, but you are the first to condemn Khalistanis, singh sabhas, or anyone who does not accept your interpretation of history. In the past, many Gursikhs, including muyself just ignored these rants, but so often they have passed the realm of truth so much that no longer can we just ignore them, without asking you to back them up with facts. Like I said before, I no enmity to you, but do ask you to at least try and stick within the realms of truth.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Gurfateh Jagjit Singh,

Signifcant majority of Sikhs don't agree sampardhai parchar of Sikhi or as you grossly generalize as easy Sikhi? Where did you get this number? May be you got this number by looking at forgein sikhs in forgein countries who either follow new age sikhi or follow tat khalsa Amristar singh sabha, bhausari singh sabha sikhi. Tat Khalsa got it's support 80-90 years ago. Before that only parchar which was done for 180 some years was via Sampardha's. Great warriors, scholars, saints, Matyrs like- baba deep singh ji, baba gurbakash singh ji, baba sahib singh ji bedi, baba bir singh ji nurangabad, baba maharaj singh ji, baba sahib singh ji kaladari, baba hanuman singh ji and many more. when they did seva, they did seva by rising above from their sampardha's they belong to and they did seva for Khalsa Panth but you cannot ignore these great people got their vidya from instituations(sampardha's) that Guru's created. Just how when we talk about shaheed bhai sahib fauja singh ji.. you cannot ignore the fact shaheed bhai sahib bhai fauja singh ji was inspired by akj jatha.

No young khalistani on here I don't think have killed any innocent but my questions is not if they killed an innocent or not but my questions are quite clear- If they were to become leaders - -what actions will they take as a leader against self proclaimed khalistan freedom fighter who across the line and become ruthless murders of innocent person in course of making khalistan because of unjustified offence caused by blind hatred? three choices were wrong in the orginal post.

I would rather not to waste my further time going through forums. As i already told you, it's not the poster or hate monger or fanatic I have issues with, I have issues with ideology and methodology that new age sikhs and tat khalsa amritsar singh sabha, bhausaria singh sabha's follows

But please try and be factual, rather than ranting. Let me remind you of a few threads.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15293&hl=

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=14906&hl=

Please re-read what i posted: I posted:

read bhai sahib orginal texts in punjabi. I wouldn't trust english translations..lot of chelas of sant, bhai sahib, baba in general have tendency of adding lot of "mirch masala" in course of translating.

That was general comment rather than specific type of comment targetting against english works/translations of bhai sahib randhir singh ji by premi singhs.

I understand if you had some bad experience with some strict sikhs. I have had some, and others may have aswell. But I do not thing having a vendetta against strict sikhs just because they do not except easy sikhi, with kissing, and the rest is the answer. Just try to understand, why you have such issues.

I have bad expereince with ideologies whether it's tunnel visioned or very laxed one and it's context. I have no issues with any sikh.

Also consider this as my last post. I am sorry to go off-topic but i felt i needed to clarify myself. Thanks for everyone who understood the relevance of dharam yudh rules by sri dasmesh pita ji and my questions and answer them honestly.

Gurfateh Ji

136044[/snapback]

[N30S1NGH]

Gurfateh Jagjit Singh,

You once again rave about your misguided sense of history. The majority of the Sikhs were fighting in the jungles, and were hunted with prices on their heads. Clearly the majority of the Sikh nation does follow the Akal thakht rehit maryada, or a jatha which is under it. Rejection of nirmallas, udasis, etc is widespread in the Panth. History is testiment to the fact they were active with Anti-sikh forces from the times of the Gurus, to modern day. Their personal interests have always been threatened by a strong Khalsa Panth.

Rejection of nirmala by majority of the panth and threatned by a strong khalsa panth? hahahahaha...what panth you are talking about ? akj/tat khalsa panth? arent' you?

Contributions of Nirmalay, nirmalay does not need self-promotion like other jatha's. Their actions speak for itself. Ask any taksali singh, or jathedar of akaal takth- vedanti sahib they will tell you udasi and nirmale are integral part of the panth.. jathedar of akaal takth name "vedanti" speaks thousand words. you might want to check akaal takth jathedar's back ground... he himself took education from nirmala oder. So i don't know which panth you are talking about? may be akj panth since so you are full of your jatha. So as they say, ignorance comes first then arrogance.

For your own sake and to educate. Here are some of contributions:

How can I begin to summarise the contributions of the Nirmalay? It pervades so much of Sikhi's past; exegetical, philosophical, dharmic/aatmic vidya, yog abhyaas, shaastrarth, raag vidya, ayurvedic vidya...it's a shame these mahanindacs didn't think of that before mocking. Just to remind the sangat that many recent influential panthic figures were Nirmalay or educated by Nirmalay such as Sant Attar Singh Mustuana, Sant Baba Nand Singh ji (Nanaksarvale), Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, Sant Sundar Singh Bhindranwale, Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal, Baba Jwala Singh Herkhowal, Sant Mukhtiar Singh Saarang, Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale...a few more famous historical Nirmalay; Sant Ishar Singh ji Rarasahib, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabd, Baba Sahib Singh Bedi, Baba Karam Singh Hoti Mardan....

Would there be much Sikh history if it weren't for the work of Nirmala scholars like Gyani Gyan Singh ji and Kavi Santokh Singh ji?

Nirmalas played an important role in the Singh Sabha movement as it is well known. The first head Granthi of Harimandir Sahib under the SGPC was Mahant Mul Singh. Many Nirmalas went to prison during the Singh Sabha movement and helped implement the Anand Karaj mariage. The Singh Sabha and the Akali movement are two different things (see Bhagat Lachman Singh's Autobiography).It is the Akalis who started creating trouble between Nirmalas and the SGPC. It is a known fact that Akalis were mainly inspired by ferengi sikhi, which does not believe that knowledge is necessary for exegesis.

Baba Teja Singh (a well-respected Nirmala Sikh) comments: ‘From 15th century in that time the [Adi] Guru Granth was composed. At that time, the four religious way’s that were existent. There was Gur Matt [sikh Guru’s thinking] in the Punjab, Bhagti Marg [Way of devotion] in South of India, Sufism in the west around Multan, and Vedant which was through out India. Those who believe in Vedas are to be found through out India. These four religious ways deal with one same subject. Bhagti Marg, Sufism, Gurmat and Vedant basically stand on one platform. Alright, I possess knowledge of Vedant. People will say that he speaks Gurbani [Guru’s word which is Dharma] in the manner of Vedant. If Someone is more versed in knowledge of Sufism, he will speak [Guru’s word] in a Sufi manner. If some one has interest in Bhagti Marg studies it he will talk in that manner [Guru’s word]. Some will speak of it [Dharma] in manner of Sikhism. According to each other’s religious learning they speak. But, in terms of foundation, when we look at the four religious ways, their principles are basically one. To have faith in God and to see God in all, this is their subject.’

(Baba Teja Singh, transcript of a recording, 9-03-2001)

you said:

I see no difference between Baba Deep singh or Bhai Randhir singh, Baba Gurbaksh singh or Baba kharak Singh. They were all inspired purely by Gurbani and dedicated to the Khalsa Panth. They were all Tat Khalsas. Your whole theories of Bhausauria sikhi, Amritsar sikhi, snatan sikhi,is complete rubbish. Bhausauria has his views, whic were dealt with by the Akal Thakht sahib. He had no influence on the scale which you guys make out. You just link his name to mainstream sikh thought to justify the existence of these so-called sampardas. Then just add Damdami taksal, to give it some legitamacy. But no matter what, if people have not taken Amrit, do not do ishnan, do not believe in Amrit. When this is so clearly against gurbani, how can they be accepted as mainstream sikhs? The Akal Thakht does not accept them so why should we? How are they any different to bhausaria?

What makes you think nirmale don't take amrit? Stop twisting history. This like saying akhand kirtani jatha does not beleive in kakkars? sounds absurd doesnt it? you have very little knowledge about nirmale, but you still make accusations that they don't take amrit? Did you know all 5 singhs who were sent by sri dasam patsah all took amrit? damdami taksal itself is gyani samparda heavily influenced by nirmale, though taksal is lineage itself like for example- baba deep singh shaheed was a ratan of khalsa panth ..no doubt there but it's also a fact that he was a nihang, taksali and nirmala.. go check bhindran taksal to get it confirmed or read giani kirpal singh ji books about influence of nirmala in taksal.

Plus why is it when we get to the nitty gritty of facts,. You seem to disappear again. Veer ji, if you canot back up your theories by facts, then do not keep ranting on about your theories. I specifically asked you to from 25 years of history to name me one prominemnt Gursikh, Bhai Fauja Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh, Bhai Sukhdev Singh babbar, , etc who killed any innocent through blind rage? Pyare veer ji, you started this thread, so now please back it up with facts?

I have already told you in the previous post. Here i ll bold it for you:

And don't ask me to name any sikhs who did this...i don't know.. i was young then ..all i know my family suffered great loss..they lost their life in bus where passengers were told to get off and they would shoot whoever didn't have turban or kara on their hand...they were dressed in bana. That's all I know..I have no evidence which group they were affilated too but as i said in above post, every jatha will deny those ruthless killers were part of them..so far i have heard only few senior singhs from taksal taking accoutabality and acknowledgement of few bad apples within in their group when last time i went to India...i tottally respect them for that...not even one single member from AKJ came forward when asked to took accountablity and acknowledgement...their reaction it's quite obvious because of their very over parnoid nature, living in denial, quick to blame on rss/GOI/Hindus influences for every little thing that went wrong.

Once again veer ji, when I ask to justify your mirch massal comment, you fail agian miserably to provide facts to back up your comments. I take offence that you are making such comments aginst Bhai Tarlocahn singh, a widely respected scholar of the Singh sabha Movemnt, and Veer harpreet Singhs father. So veer ji either re-tract or accept you do spread mis-information in an intentional manner to cause doubt in those innocent minds who come to learn.

As i said that was general comment that be over cautious. Applied to everyone who do translate but in the course of translations add their mindset thoughts or mat into it. So is it a crime to ask others read bhai sahib or their sants teaching in orginal form rather than relying on translations? i think you will admit reading stuff in its orginal form gives you more rass than transliteration.

Lastly veer ji, I often find those who complain about tunnel vision, i.e. neo-nihangs, snatanists, and unlabelled like yourself, often suffer from the same symptons. You all complain about predjudice, but you are the first to condemn Khalistanis, singh sabhas, or anyone who does not accept your interpretation of history. In the past, many Gursikhs, including muyself just ignored these rants, but so often they have passed the realm of truth so much that no longer can we just ignore them, without asking you to back them up with facts. Like I said before, I no enmity to you, but do ask you to at least try and stick within the realms of truth.

Realm of truth lecture aie, you just proved yourself how much realm of truth you stick up to when you make accusations against nirmale that they don't take amrit? by saying not only you insulted great instituation but also saints, scholars directly/indirectly linked with that lineage...

it's good to come out from your comfort zones/your jatha once an while to see diversity yet unity in the sikhi but still maintains basic sikh tenants: take amrit, read gurbani, respect gurbani and not disown gurbani.

If you wish to reply to this now, you should pm me since i think we are completly going off-topic.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, when I speak of Nirmallas, udassis being rejected from the Panth, I speak of incidents in history such as Nankana sahib Saka. The whole Gurdwara Reform movement was to take our Gurdwaras out of the hands of British backed Nirmalas, udassies, etc, who were also called mahants.

Surely you cannot just ignore such a major part of history, and just pretend it did not happen. From the time of Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev ji, the udasis started by Siri Chand have tried to divert sikhism. He may have been forgiven later by other Guru ji sahibaan, but then during the times of the Moghuls, and british, and now aswell they conspire to control sikh institutions. All sikh reform movements have always opposed them.

There is no akj Panth. If you wish to start topics, then have a proper sensible debate, without making silly comments. There is only one Guru Khalsa Panth.

Do you honestly believe just by name dropping Taksal to justify the existence of Udassies and Niramallas, is going to start all Gursikhs on this forum to start on me, then you must be mistaken.

Are you currently now saying that Niramalla 100% believe in Amrit, and there is not one nirmallas who is not Amritdhari, and none of them state that taking Amrit is not important. Are you saying that every nirmallas is 5 kakkaar? Are you saying every nirmalla adheres 100% accepting the Siri Akal Thakht rehit maryada as its minimum level of rehit?

When I met jathedar joginder Singh ji, he said his background was with taksal, and spent years studying Gurbani with Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara. He made no mention of any nirmala to me.

As I said before. I am sorry for your loss. I have also lost family in the 80s. My great grandfather was also a Babbar Akhali who was hanged by the British, for do seva of them and police touts, namely nirmallas and udassies.

I once again ask you to consider that those who killed your family. Where they Shaheed singhs, or possibly police touts, black cats, dressed as Singhs set to defame a movement? Every Khalistani knew killing innocents was against their movement. So I once again say to you present proof if you are going to make the accusations? I do not see why any taksal and akj singh should apologise for anything that they have not been involved in.

Lastly veer ji, I have no interest in writing this stuff. It is of no spiritual benefit to me at all. However you have spent too much time making accusations, snide remarks, and general misinformation. I am just asking you back up your comments with facts.

SOLUTION - just accept in the past you may have made comments that were unjusitified or defaming. You do not need to apologise. Then try and not do it again. Then we can just forget the past, and share each other virtues as Gursikhs.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji kek fateh

Admin Note - Stick to the topic. Or start a new topic to discuss Nirmalas and Udasis.

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Namstang

You seem to have brought the sanatan version of Sikh history with all it's sampardhay, secret texts, secret martial arts, lineages. History is much more complex than the simplistic version sold to you by the sanatan websites. Can we take it that before the Tat Khalsa - SGPC era, 1890's - 1920's there would only be Udasi, Nihang, Nirmala and Sewapanthi Sikhs? That would make sense wouldn't it. The Sanatan Singh Sabha although founded in 1873 was a part of the Sanatan group. The Tat Khalsa only came about in any force during the 1890's and the Sikhi that you would call 'angrezi' came about with the SGPC.

Have you read Sri Guru Teerath Sangreh by Tara Singh Narotam written in 1884, one of the first writers to classify Gurdwaras into Udasis, Nirmala and Nihang management. We would assume that Gurdwaras would only be run by the so-called four sampardhas supposedly created by the Gurus. Well surprising about 60% or over of the Gurdwaras are classified as SIKH. Who are these SIKHS running Gurdwaras when we all know that there were only four types of Sikhs if we are to believe that great scholar Jagdeep Singh of Sanatan websites fame?

If you think that Sikh history is just a series of so and so Baba is connected to so and so sampardha then you are very mistaken. It's truely ironic but according to Amritpal Singh's research the present Budha Dal was founded during BRITISH times and does not have any connection apart from the name to the Budha Dal founded in the 1730's. Truely IRONIC, so does this make the Budha Dal an ANGREZI Budha Dal??

[sikh_assasin]

WJKKWJKF I have said this on there other topic but im gonna say it again why has no thought of buying out a hole bunch of island on the south of africa and naming them the republic islands of khalistan this way there is no loss of life just a HQ to build from and this way we are indepentant from india and as for the leader im sure guru ji will apoint someone in his own way just an idea :T:

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

duplicate post

[sikh_assasin]

is that all u can say

[jss]

i would just like to say..

there have been great souls who have been udhasis, nirmala saints, sevapanthis...professor puran singh ji has written about them to some degree and if we read bhai sahib bhai vir singh ji's book called Sant Gatha...in it he has chronicaled the lives of several sevapanthi saints who lead beautiful jeevans...

i'm saying this because people are attacking these groups..

HOWEVER...

for people backing these groups...we cannot ignore that many mahants did a lot of negative things in our gurughars and that many udhasis have in the past taken positions against singhs...

even damdami taksaal gives recognition to the sampardas..but they will also tell you of the negatives that have come out of these sampardas..so there's no point in using damdami taksaal as a pro-samparda argument...

now i'd like to address namastang's (akaal, neo) repeated accusations against the akj and singh sabhias....calling them malech, farangi khalsay...

neo...that isn't cool at all...it's very undignified and shows pretty much no class when you have to resort to that type of name calling...even if you DID have any points to make...you can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you behave like a child..i have been reading this from a neutral stance...and nowhere have i seen jagjit singh veer make those type of statements that you have made...

i can understand that you have disagreements with the akj...i myself don't believe in keski as kakaar, or that raagmala isn't bani...however...just cuz i happen to believe something contrary to the jatha..doesn't give me the right to attack THEM...whether YOU like it or not...all amritdharis....are sons and daughters of the same Dasmesh Pita...we have the same father, same mother, we come from the same place....

as khalsa we are supposed make our jeevans of love...we are supposed to embrace the whole of humanity as our family and become the sevadaars for the good of humanity...how can we do that when we can't look at another gursikh with love and humility???...

from reading your posts and others here too...there is not love and humility there...

it seems that we are all posting here to make OUR points...not to learn and grow...we should probably start asking ourselves...am i posting to contribute to a positive learning environment...or am i posting cuz someone <Edited> me off and now i have to post back and make my argument....

i sincerely hope my fellow brothers and sisters will choose the former...

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Well said JSS Jee!!! Agree completely with everything you said.

Just a question I wanted to raise regarding the Mahants - I always thought that the Mahants were Udassis, and not Nirmallas? Is there are any source to say that that the Mahants included Nirmallas as well?

If there were Nirmallas that were Mahants, then obviously they did bad things. No-one will justify their actions. BUT that does not mean that all Nirmallas were bad. Some Nirmallas made great contributions to the Panth, and carried out vast Amrit Sanchaar smaagams. It would be wrong of us to paint everyone with the same brush.

Similarly, if someone calling himself a Taksali or Babbar committed an atrocity in the post-84 period on innocents, then that does not mean all Taksalis or Babbars were bad ... cos a true Saint-Soldier does not carry out such acts.

It's not simply a black or white issue, where a whole Jatha or Group can be labelled as bad or anti-Panthic.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo